Andrewwhyte 1 #401 January 7, 2009 Quote Sorry I have sinus cold today. Comparing Hamas to Churchill is just as ridiculus. Why is it ridiculous? Churchill made a decision that was deliberately intended to lure the Germans away from bombing air-bases and towards bombing civilians. The price was horrible but it was probably necessary to win the Battle of Britain. Hamas cannot win a conventional war against Israel so they have adopted guerrilla tactics that are deliberately intended to lure the Israelis into killing civilians and thus losing western support as well as firming it up in the Arab world. I think it is a legitimate comparison. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #402 January 7, 2009 QuoteA good comparison for Hamas is our revolutionary solders. They were viewed as dishonorable because back then gorilla warfare was considered dishonorable, but it was the only way our revolutionary solders could compete and fight against the British. The Revolutionaries, as well as a more recent example, the VC, did not fire from homes with the expectation that civilian shields would discourage return fire. A good thing too, since in both wars, the dominant force showed little restraint of that nature. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #403 January 7, 2009 We had a supper power at the time help us they have no one. The super power has sided with the British this time and I don’t know how well we would have done with out any big help. Who knows I agree that it’s not helping, but what Israel is doing is not helping either. As mentioned before what happened a year ago in Lebanon only made Hezbollah stronger. Violence is not the answer for either side.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #404 January 7, 2009 QuoteThe Revolutionaries, as well as a more recent example, the VC, did not fire from homes with the expectation that civilian shields would discourage return fire. Again perspective. Guerrilla warfare was viewed just as we view “ Terrorists” now it was considered incredibly cowardly, and dishonorable. Also America is a bit bigger then Gaza, put all of America on a small island and they will have no choice but to fight from homes as they have no room.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #405 January 7, 2009 Quote... and not to mention Irgun again, not a valid comparison. They were targeting the british presence here. there were no British civilians only army and officials. but, even if you go there, a comparison would be valid had they went on to blow things in London AFTER the british left in 1948. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #406 January 7, 2009 Quoteput all of America on a small island and they will have no choice but to fight from homes as they have no room. yeah right, THAT is why Hamas fires from school yards and civilian houses... talk about being blind... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #407 January 7, 2009 Still terrorists.. In the bombing of the King David Hotel they murdered, what 91 people? (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #408 January 7, 2009 I didn't say I support it and neither did the jewish leadership back then who actually went after them. Hamas, IS the leadership and even before that, Arafat did not do anything to stop them (and others) I said there is a difference between targeting official symbols (and the king david hotel was one) and military installations Vs. civilians as the prime target. btw, if you research it some more you'll see that before every attack on such symbol they called in advance and warned them to clear the builfing. in the king david incident, the warning was ignored. still, I think it was a mistake, but its still not the same. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #409 January 7, 2009 Blind? You claim the people were there all the time, yet forget to mention that the population has increased severely because of imported people on stolen land. You claim your self that both people have a claim yet show no problem with a formation of a country that openly practice segregation, and do you not see the inequality? Of they both have claim what’s your excuse for that? Are you really claiming that the Israeli army is too stupid to realize if they shoot a tank shell at a school children might die? Yet you keep on saying we don’t kill inocent people on purpose. Let me ask you this do the Israelis torture by mistake as well? You site international law when mentioning uniforms but cast international law aside when it shows Israel in a negative light. Hypocrisy anyone? The sad part is if the Israelis were Arabs and the Palestinians were Jews you and many others would change your tune and change sides and I wouldn’t that’s the difference. Now keep on changing every standard and keep on wiggling to make your self seem right.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #410 January 7, 2009 I did research and found the warning but that doesn't change the outcome. I'm also not saying that you agree or don't - that's for you not for me to say (I couldn't know) - I'm simply (over simply, perhaps) pointing out that one mans terrorists is anothers freedom fighter - It's all to do with context and perspective. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyBoyd 0 #411 January 7, 2009 "what is the alternative, not shoot back because they are using human shields, against any war convention? when you are under fire, you fire back. you try to hit only those who are actual firing but it is not always possible (and Hamas is making sure it won't be easy)." Shoot back all you want. But if you do so knowing full well you will hit civilians, then you have intentionally targeted the civilians, and you have lost the right to claim moral superiority. As far as your question re what are the alternatives? I have to admit, I don't know. Of course Israel has the right to defend itself like any other nation. But Israel is causing tremendous damage to civilians in Gaza just like it did in Lebanon in 2006. The cycle of death and destruction never ends. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #412 January 7, 2009 Quote>I didn't know that, I thought it was just something John made up. Nope. Unfortunately, it's not, and was recorded and sent out to republicans by Chip Saltsman, a candidate for Republican National Committee chairman... Shows the country what kind of a guy Chip Saltsman is. It's funny how you condemn Saltsman for copying the song, but don't say anything against Paul Shanklin for creating "Barack the Magic Negro" in the first place. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #413 January 7, 2009 Quote[what is the alternative, not shoot back because they are using human shields, against any war convention? YES (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #414 January 7, 2009 QuoteStill terrorists.. In the bombing of the King David Hotel they murdered, what 91 people? A little historical perspective, in the interest of fairness: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre QuoteJallianwala Bagh massacre From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The Jallianwala Bagh Massacre, alternatively known as the Amritsar Massacre, was named after the Jallianwala Bagh (Garden) in the northern Indian city of Amritsar where, on April 13, 1919, while doing a peaceful demonstration on occasion of Punjabi New Year, British Indian Army soldiers under the command of Brigadier-General Reginald Dyer opened fire on an unarmed gathering of men, women and children. The firing lasted about 10 minutes and 1650 rounds were fired, or 33 rounds per soldier. Official British Raj sources placed the fatalities at 379. According to private sources there were over 1000 deaths, with more than 2000 wounded,[1] and Civil Surgeon Dr. Smith indicated that there were 1,526 casualties.[2] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #415 January 7, 2009 it seems that once again when you have nothing to say you turn back to your "old truth" and recite the same crap. your post has nothing to do with what I said. but, once again... Quoteyet show no problem with a formation of a country that openly practice segregation again, all israelis are equal by law, arabs and jews. people in the west bank are not israeli citizens, they are PA citizens. and before you draw your "jew only roads" card, i'll tell you again, west bank palestinians are not allowed in some areas just as Israelis are not allowed to go in west bank towns. its about security, following many many attacks, not about racism. QuoteAre you really claiming that the Israeli army is too stupid to realize if they shoot a tank shell at a school children might die? no, i'm saying that when being fired upon, you fire back at the source. who chose to shoot from there? QuoteYou site international law when mentioning uniforms but cast international law aside no, when you accused israel of violating the Geneva convention, I said that you can't behind these laws when you don't abide by them and clearly mark your combatants and shoot from civilian areas. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #416 January 7, 2009 QuoteI'm simply (over simply, perhaps) pointing out that one mans terrorists is anothers freedom fighter - It's all to do with context and perspective. I agree. you still can't ignore the intention and targets. and again, Irgun was a small organization on the outskirts of society and it was actually prosecuted by the jewish leadership then http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunting_Season "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #417 January 7, 2009 QuoteYES nice illustration. I agree with your point as long as the masked man in your picture is just holding the gun. what will the police do once he starts shooting at them? what will they do when he starts killing other people arround? will they allow him to continue shooting or will they try to hit him, risking his hostage as well? does it matter that his "hostage" is actually his partner who could have fled but chose to stay? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #418 January 7, 2009 QuoteQuoteYES nice illustration. I agree with your point as long as the masked man in your picture is just holding the gun. what will the police do once he starts shooting at them? what will they do when he starts killing other people arround? will they allow him to continue shooting or will they try to hit him, risking his hostage as well? does it matter that his "hostage" is actually his partner who could have fled but chose to stay? When I saw the picture I immediately thought the things you just wrote- right up until the bit about partner who chose to stay. The civilians in Gaza have no such choice, the borders are closed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #419 January 7, 2009 QuoteWhen I saw the picture I immediately thought the things you just wrote- right up until the bit about partner who chose to stay. The civilians in Gaza have no such choice, the borders are closed. valid point. I don't know if its true but it seems Hamas actually threatens them not to leave. and i'm not sure if they can actually kick Hamas out of their back yards. so, I accept your comment. but still, I dont think anyone will blame the cop who shoots him in that scenario. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #420 January 7, 2009 QuoteQuoteYES nice illustration. I agree with your point as long as the masked man in your picture is just holding the gun. what will the police do once he starts shooting at them? what will they do when he starts killing other people arround? will they allow him to continue shooting or will they try to hit him, risking his hostage as well? does it matter that his "hostage" is actually his partner who could have fled but chose to stay? There is always a do nothing (for now) option. I'm not picking on you Ori but I'll side with the innocent victims, no matter who they are. Remember there are innocents on both sides and they deserve our consideration. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #421 January 7, 2009 QuoteThere is always a do nothing (for now) option. true, until he starts shooting. QuoteI'll side with the innocent victims, no matter who they are. I can respect that, and I really really teally wish they weren't caught in the middle of it. but again, when being shot at you can't just smile back... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #422 January 7, 2009 Quoteagain, all israelis are equal by law, arabs and jews. people in the west bank are not israeli citizens, they are PA citizens. and before you draw your "jew only roads" card, i'll tell you again, west bank palestinians are not allowed in some areas just as Israelis are not allowed to go in west bank towns. its about security, following many many attacks, not about racism. First its not a card you actully have Jews only roads not all isrelis arab or jewish welcome but jews only roads. Quoteno, when you accused israel of violating the Geneva convention, I said that you can't behind these laws when you don't abide by them and clearly mark your combatants and shoot from civilian areas. Can Hamas even afford uniforms? Or do they have to chose between weapons to fight with or uniforms? And what would happen if they did have uniforms? Israel would kill them all. Israel has assassinated officials, and ignored the democratically elected hamas what do you expect Hamas to do? Again it comes down to this. You and other Zionists believe they have some magical claim to the land, and me and some others think the people who were killed and run off their land have a right to their land, It seems you think Israel has the right to tell these people what to do and they should just roll over. I believe they are ones who should be doing the talking the people who were there before the huge expansions and the imported so called citizens. Those people were from all religions.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #423 January 7, 2009 Quote Again perspective. Guerrilla warfare was viewed just as we view “ Terrorists” now it was considered incredibly cowardly, and dishonorable. No, using your own people as human shields will always be viewed as cowardly and dishonorable, and is against conventions of war. I don't see that ever changing - it's unreasonable to expect people to accept attacks on their lives without response because so called innocents may be in the crossfire. In the US, if someone robs the 7-11 and a bystander gets shot by a cop or a civilian as part of the events, the robber is charged with murder. It is his actions that caused the result. Same is true in Gaza. Hamas is responsible for the civilian deaths. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #424 January 7, 2009 Quote So called innocents Kids are always innocents, there's no so called about it. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #425 January 7, 2009 Quote In the US, if someone robs the 7-11 and a bystander gets shot by a cop or a civilian as part of the events, the robber is charged with murder. It is his actions that caused the result. Ya, that is a law that is unique to the US as far as I know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
