Andy9o8 2 #726 January 21, 2009 You got a lotta anger in you, boy. Why be coy? Be honest with us and tell us why. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #727 January 21, 2009 Yes it is.. historically people with weaker technology and numbers tend to lose wars.. at that point you either assimalate and get on with living or continue to fight and be EXTERMINATED. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #728 January 21, 2009 QuoteYes it is.. historically people with weaker technology and numbers tend to lose wars.. at that point you either assimalate and get on with living or continue to fight and be EXTERMINATED. And THAT, my friends, seems to be the lesson that Hamas so far, refuses to learn."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #729 January 21, 2009 QuoteQuoteYes it is.. historically people with weaker technology and numbers tend to lose wars.. at that point you either assimalate and get on with living or continue to fight and be EXTERMINATED. And THAT, my friends, seems to be the lesson that Hamas so far, refuses to learn. There's another lesson/option: pursue asymmetric warfare. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #730 January 21, 2009 QuoteAnd the vast majority of the Gazans have been peaceful. It's gotten them nothing yes, the majority suffers because of Hamas' leadership. I don't care if they elected Hamas or not, its their government and it is responsible for their situation. Quoteeven Fatah has been useless Fatah lost all of its grip in Gaza in the (violent) takeover of Hamas. QuoteThe only people that the Gazans see as working towards an end to the blockade is Hamas Hamas is the only reason there IS a blockade, as long as they refuse to accept existing treaties, stockpile rockets and use them, the blockade is justified. QuoteTheir tactics are counterproductive but in many Palestinian's eyes they're at least trying to bring about a change indeed, a change for the worst. for both sides. even the Egyptians have had enough of it "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #731 January 21, 2009 QuoteYou got a lotta anger in you, boy. Why be coy? Be honest with us and tell us why. Actually, I really don't have that much anger in me. However injustice and hypocrisy does tend to get me riled up from time to time. Amazon's posts on this particular issue can be irritatingly counterproductive to any meaningful dialog. I made an assumption that, given her stated ancestry that she might have a problem with the deplorable treatment of the Native American population by our forefathers. That was/is a particularly dark stain on American history. I'm disgusted by it whether it happens on my homeland or in the Middle East, in Sudan, or anywhere else. To my surprise, she doesn't appear to have a problem with it. It's a "might makes right" mentality that we just kicked out of the Executive branch of our government, one that I was convinced that she didn't support. I was obviously wrong. (I think I may have an idea why but that's not important.) My main problem with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict (besides the inhumane treatment of the Palestinians) is that the US has an official policy and an actual policy. We have made demands of the Israeli government yet we fail to hold them accountable for spitting that policy right back into our faces. We have no problem facilitating a humanitarian crisis in Gaza when Hamas violates international law. We have no problem turning a blind eye to the settlement expansion, settler violence and IDF violence in the West Bank or the collective punishment, the use of cluster bombs, flechette shells and white phosphorous in one of the most densely populated regions on the planet. It's that sort of double standard that we hold with regard to this conflict that is a primary justification used by terror groups to wage their war against us. If we would cease the hypocrisy by closing down the Guantanamo prison, renounce our policy of torture while holding the guilty parties accountable, and hold both Israel and its enemies to equal standards, not only would we go a long way towards solving our terrorist problem, but we'd save a hell of a lot of our own money in the process. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #732 January 21, 2009 QuoteQuoteAnd the vast majority of the Gazans have been peaceful. It's gotten them nothing yes, the majority suffers because of Hamas' leadership. I don't care if they elected Hamas or not, its their government and it is responsible for their situation. I do care if they're elected. We purport to be champions of democracy. Democracy is not democracy if it only applies when our candidate wins. QuoteQuoteeven Fatah has been useless Fatah lost all of its grip in Gaza in the (violent) takeover of Hamas. And Fatah has been useless in their attempt to alleviate the Palestinian suffering in Gaza. They haven't done much to stop the settlement expansion or violence in the West Bank for that matter. QuoteQuoteThe only people that the Gazans see as working towards an end to the blockade is Hamas Hamas is the only reason there IS a blockade, as long as they refuse to accept existing treaties, stockpile rockets and use them, the blockade is justified. They maintained a cease fire with Israel for six months. What did Israel offer in return last month when it had a chance to negotiate? Nothing but a continuation of the blockade in honor of the upcoming election. And the blockade is not justified. Collective punishment is a war crime. I don't support it when Israel does it in Gaza just as I wouldn't support a similar action against Israel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #733 January 21, 2009 But you never seem to have any balance about this one topic in particular. You've become as predictably strident and monochromatic as Darius and Falxori. You wanna be coy about why, that's your prerogative. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #734 January 21, 2009 QuoteI do care if they're elected. We purport to be champions of democracy. Democracy is not democracy if it only applies when our candidate wins. you missed my point. first of all, Hamas wasn't elected as government, it took it by force. it won the parliment election. being "elected" doesnt make them right, their actions do (or don't) still, it doesn't matter if they got elected or not. what is important is their agenda and actions. if they refuse to accept signed treaties, if they refuse to give up their violent ways and desire to destroy Israel, if they attack Israel repeatedly, THAT is what matters. the fact that they were elected just makes the citizens of Gaza a little guilty as well... QuoteAnd Fatah has been useless Fattah's problem was corruption and Arafat's inability to let go of violence as a valid option when negotiations fail. his refusal to have the Palestinians "speak in one (peaceful) voice" ended up biting him in the ass... QuoteThey maintained a cease fire with Israel for six months and used it to smuggle thousands of rockets. the blockade is there exactly becsause of that. there wouldn't have been a blockade if they were importing tomatos... QuoteAnd the blockade is not justified. preventing Hamas from easily getting more and more explosives and longer range missiles is very justified. QuoteCollective punishment is a war crime. blockade on an enemy entity that attacks you is not a war crime. calling it collective punishment is cheap propaganda. Israel has been supplying Gaza with lots of food and medical supplies (again, it doesnt have to in a state of war). most was taken by Hamas and given to its own people rather than to the population (according to citizens in Gaza). and again, it doesnt matter if Hamas was elected or not. in any case, they are in power and they wage war against Israel even when Israel has left Gaza completely. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #735 January 21, 2009 QuoteYou've become as predictably strident and monochromatic as Darius and Falxori. each is monochromatic, together, we make a rainbow... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #736 January 21, 2009 QuoteBut you never seem to have any balance about this one topic in particular. You've become as predictably strident and monochromatic as Darius and Falxori. You wanna be coy about why, that's your prerogative. Quite to the contrary, my posts are all about balance. There is no shortage of info in the US media pointing out Hamas' war crimes but there is a void when it comes to coverage of Israel's war crimes, although the internet is beginning to shed a bit more daylight on the conflict. Both commit war crimes. Both should be held equally accountable. We don't do that. It's a deadly, counterproductive double standard, which is why I post on the subject. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #737 January 21, 2009 Quote Quote You've become as predictably strident and monochromatic as Darius and Falxori. each is monochromatic, together, we make a rainbow... I like that one! America got its strength from the melting pot idea of the sum being greater than its parts. I hope that idea's contagious. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #738 January 21, 2009 QuoteBoth commit war crimes. you cannot put Israel and Hamas at the same level. one is a terror organization who refuses to do anything but violence, targets civilians and dances on their blood (even on its own citizen's blood). the other is a country under constant and unprovoked attacks. any other country under constant missile attacks would have wiped out half of Gaza, wouldn't have let ANYTHING in and out and would show much less regard to civilian lives. big difference... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #739 January 21, 2009 QuoteQuoteBut you never seem to have any balance about this one topic in particular. You've become as predictably strident and monochromatic as Darius and Falxori. You wanna be coy about why, that's your prerogative. Quite to the contrary, my posts are all about balance. There is no shortage of info in the US media pointing out Hamas' war crimes but there is a void when it comes to coverage of Israel's war crimes, although the internet is beginning to shed a bit more daylight on the conflict. Both commit war crimes. Both should be held equally accountable. We don't do that. It's a deadly, counterproductive double standard, which is why I post on the subject. As I said, it's your prerogative. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #740 January 21, 2009 Quote you missed my point. first of all, Hamas wasn't elected as government, it took it by force. it won the parliment election. being "elected" doesnt make them right, their actions do (or don't) still, it doesn't matter if they got elected or not. what is important is their agenda and actions. if they refuse to accept signed treaties, if they refuse to give up their violent ways and desire to destroy Israel, if they attack Israel repeatedly, THAT is what matters. the fact that they were elected just makes the citizens of Gaza a little guilty as well... My problem with Israel's approach to Hamas is the "all or nothing" idea with regard to negotiation. Hamas has stated in the past that they could live side by side in peace. They also helped maintain a relatively successful cease fire for six months. That's the time when negotiations need to take place. And that's the nature of compromise. Both sides give something. Neither side gets everything. QuoteQuoteAnd Fatah has been useless Fattah's problem was corruption and Arafat's inability to let go of violence as a valid option when negotiations fail. his refusal to have the Palestinians "speak in one (peaceful) voice" ended up biting him in the ass... Quite true, and that same corruption is why Hamas won the election and kicked them out of Gaza. QuoteQuoteThey maintained a cease fire with Israel for six months and used it to smuggle thousands of rockets. the blockade is there exactly becsause of that. there wouldn't have been a blockade if they were importing tomatos... They do smuggle in tomatoes. So, the tunnels are there because of the blockade and the blockade is there because of the tunnels. Chickens and eggs again. Quote Israel has been supplying Gaza with lots of food and medical supplies (again, it doesnt have to in a state of war). They are your prisoners. You have to supply them with food and medicine. And yes, Israel is doing that but at levels so low that minimum needs cannot be met. So you get tunnels as the result. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #741 January 21, 2009 Quote As I said, it's your prerogative. I can't possibly be more clear. If you wish to infer something that you are reading between my very concise lines then that's your prerogative. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #742 January 21, 2009 Quote the other is a country under constant and unprovoked attacks. This describes both. Both parties are provocative. Both need to accept their culpability. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #743 January 21, 2009 QuoteQuite true, and that same corruption is why Hamas won the election and kicked them out of Gaza. again, Hamas took power of Gaza by brute force, killing hundreds of PA people. just in the past 2 days: QuoteMeanwhile, sources close to Hamas revealed over the weekend that the movement had "executed" more than 35 Palestinians who were suspected of collaborating with Israel and were being held in various Hamas security installations. QuoteHamas militiamen had been assaulting many Fatah activists since the beginning of the operation last Saturday. They said at least 75 activists were shot in the legs while others had their hands broken. Wisam Abu Jalhoum, a Fatah activist from the Jabalya refugee camp, was shot in the legs by Hamas militiamen for allegedly expressing joy over the IDF air strikes on Hamas targets QuoteSo, the tunnels are there because of the blockade and the blockade is there because of the tunnels. no, the blockade is there to make it difficult for them to smuggle even bigger missiles. the tunnels are there to override the blockade. and yes, they smuggle everything. its not the tomatos we have a problem with. if it was just tomatos, there wouldnt be any need for a blockade. QuoteThey are your prisoners. You have to supply them with food and medicine. And yes, Israel is doing that but at levels so low that minimum needs cannot be met. actually the UN said it does. and anyway, don't forget the constant attempts to blow up the border crossings that supply these supplies. now why on earth would they want to blow up the crossings that feed their people? i'm sure they have nothing to gain from the people not getting supplies... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #744 January 21, 2009 I seem to be having difficulty getting my point across. War crimes are not an acceptable response to war crimes. I don't expect my country to commit war crimes while demanding that others cease their crimes. I believe in leading by example. I hold our allies to the same standard, especially when we supply them with weapons, financial and political assistance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #745 January 21, 2009 QuoteWar crimes are not an acceptable response to war crimes. I agree. saying "they fired at civilians so I will too" is not acceptable and I agree with you on that. but that's not the case here. Israel is not TARGETING civilians, justifying it by the fact that Hamas does it too. "I was fired upon from a civilian house or a school and I've returned fire" is very different. this is not a war crime. you are allowed to return fire anywhere if fired upon, even if it will hurt the civilians you enemy is hiding behind. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #746 January 21, 2009 QuoteAmazon's posts on this particular issue can be irritatingly counterproductive to any meaningful dialog. I made an assumption that, given her stated ancestry that she might have a problem with the deplorable treatment of the Native American population by our forefathers. That was/is a particularly dark stain on American history. I'm disgusted by it whether it happens on my homeland or in the Middle East, in Sudan, or anywhere else. To my surprise, she doesn't appear to have a problem with it. It's a "might makes right" mentality that we just kicked out of the Executive branch of our government, one that I was convinced that she didn't support. I was obviously wrong. (I think I may have an idea why but that's not important.) Wrong yet again. I think people living in peace is the best thing that a group of people can do, to get on with living and make a better life for themselves AND more importantly for their families. In Gaza there are a group of individuals who have seized power based on their MIGHT... you seem to not realize that. They do not wish peace because they would lose their power.. they would lose their status and they would become irrelevant. They could no longer continue "THE STUGGLE". They use radical fundamentalism to pervert the children of their people. They preach hatred and teach the murder of innocent people based on their race and religion. That is the people you are supporting... Living in fantasy land is not what a people need. If the attacks stopped and the decided to make peace and allowed the Jews to live in the lands of their forefathers there would be peace. Hamas cant even acknowledge that the Israelis ever even existed there. Numverous instances of archaeological digs in that part of the world on the non- Israeli controlled land is deemd to be ancient palistinian.. and no jewish despite the evidence to the contrary. They are not interested in truth.... because that would allow for legitimacy of the claims on the land OTHER than theri own. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #747 January 21, 2009 QuoteQuoteWar crimes are not an acceptable response to war crimes. I agree. saying "they fired at civilians so I will too" is not acceptable and I agree with you on that. but that's not the case here. Israel is not TARGETING civilians, justifying it by the fact that Hamas does it too. They may not be officially targeting civilians but they have seem to have no problem with civilians as collateral damage. See the attached picture and consider the bombed UN compound and schools. Also consider the extensive use of cluster bombs in the conflict with Lebanon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #748 January 21, 2009 QuoteThey may not be officially targeting civilians and that is makes a huge difference QuoteSee the attached picture andd see the attached video showing how a missile is diverted away when the Hamas target is getting too close to civilians. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUeSE3WWX_M "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #749 January 21, 2009 Quote In Gaza there are a group of individuals who have seized power based on their MIGHT... you seem to not realize that. I do realize that. They seized power through force after they won a majority in the parliamentary election, Israel cut off the release of the PNA's funds (against the US's wishes) and subsequently joined with the US in a sanction policy aimed at the de-legitimization of the Hamas government. The idea was to collectively punish the people of Gaza in order to get them to choose a different leadership. Quote They do not wish peace because they would lose their power.. they would lose their status and they would become irrelevant. They could no longer continue "THE STUGGLE". Haniyeh: Hamas willing to accept Palestinian state with 1967 borders Quote They use radical fundamentalism to pervert the children of their people. They preach hatred and teach the murder of innocent people based on their race and religion. That is the people you are supporting... I don't support Hamas' extremist tactics. I don't support Israeli extremist tactics either. There's plenty of video and photo documentation for both. But you also forget that Hamas supplies numerous social services to the people of Gaza. That's one of the main reasons they gained popular support. I don't support them. I don't agree with their tactics or their ideology. But I do recognize their legitimacy and I do recognize the double standard that we wield against them. Quote Living in fantasy land is not what a people need. If the attacks stopped and the decided to make peace and allowed the Jews to live in the lands of their forefathers there would be peace. Hamas cant even acknowledge that the Israelis ever even existed there. Numverous instances of archaeological digs in that part of the world on the non- Israeli controlled land is deemd to be ancient palistinian.. and no jewish despite the evidence to the contrary. They are not interested in truth.... because that would allow for legitimacy of the claims on the land OTHER than theri own. Both sides can lay valid claim to ancestral lands. (Actually much of the population of the planet could if we wanted to go back far enough) But Israel has a legal border and they have land that they occupy. They are not allowed under international law to transfer their population onto that land, regardless of who is buried there. P.S. Thanks for the thoughtful exchange Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #750 January 21, 2009 Quote Quote You've become as predictably strident and monochromatic as Darius and Falxori. each is monochromatic, together, we make a rainbow... I just read this I needed that today. Can i be blue?I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
