SpeedRacer 1 #326 January 6, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Obama is keeping his mouth shut on this issue - afraid to take a stand one way or the other. Tip: He's not the President yet. Hint: it hasn't kept him from trying to influence numerous other things already in the works, like the economic stimulus package. So why is he keeping mum on this particular issue? If he had some bright idea to end the conflict, he could telegraph it now for the upcoming future in just 15-days, to start quieting things down. Wouldn't that be the responsible thing to do? Ah, but he doesn't. So the reason he's keeping silent, is that he really doesn't have any magic solution, and he's just a chicken who doesn't want to get involved. Well, it's time for him to grow up. In two weeks he won't have the option of running away and hiding in the closet any more like a little child. He better start behaving like a president now. Hey JohnRich, cut Obama some slack! How the hell can he be expected to come up with a solution to the current mideast crisis? As you should know, he's got his hands full plotting how to convert the USA into a Socialist Muslim Dictatorship as soon as he takes office. And he's got to get together with his buddy Ayers & start blowing up US government buildings and monuments. There's a LOT of them in Washington!! Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #327 January 6, 2009 Quote I'd like to ask you a couple of questions. Would you really be happy if Israel killed every man, woman, and child in Gaza? How would you propose Israel do this? Even the Israelis claim to be trying to avoid civilian casualties to the extent that they can. In your view, is Israel therefore waging this war inefficiently? If your answer is yes, how should they proceed? How would you propose Israel deal with the surely horrific consequences of waging indiscriminate war, as you advocate? America is obviously Israel's biggest supporter in the world. Should America assist Israel in killing everyone in Gaza? It seems to me that you haven't really thought out the consequences of what you are proposing. Maybe you ought to start doing so at some point. I'm a bit late getting back in this thread. But I will say this: Hamas has a large population in Gaza to draw their recruits from for their suicide bombings and rocket launchings. I can see where TBrown is coming from. Kill 'em all, and they will finally stop their shenanigans as there would be nobody left to continue them. Ideal, yes, reality, no. All Israel can do is clear out the parts of Gaza the rockets are being launched from so Hamas can't launch a rocket near enough to reach any town in Israel, and do a better job of preventing arms smuggling into Gaza. Hamas will stop at nothing to get Israel. What are you gonna do? Nuke them and the world condemns Israel and its allies and sets off WWIII. Raze Gaza and the humanitarians cry foul. Israel is damned if they do this or do that, but they'll do what they think is best to protect their citizens, be damned what the world thinks. When they started building the wall, they wanted to stop the pilfering of suicide bombers into their cities, and that's worked out pretty good. Then the rockets started raining down. What should they do then? Bomb the fuck out of the launching points and chase the bastards down and kill them? Civilian casualties are a sure thing in any war or conflict, even more so when you're forced to deal with evil motherfuckers who use civilians, even their own family members as human shields. Hell, several Hamas leaders have sent their own children off to be suicide bombers. What are you supposed to do when faced with that kind of fucked up shit? There are no winners in this conflict. Never will be, just my humble opinion. Israel may win battles and/or kill 300 Hamas/Palestinians/Arabs for every Israeli casualty, but the world will still condemn them for going too far. My opinion is, they have to, because Hamas will stop at nothing to kill Israelis all the way to their bitter ends."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #328 January 6, 2009 Quote If I lived in Israel, I would hate Arabs, if I was an Arab I would hate Jewish, and as an europeen I am happy I won the lottery and can read both news, and think for myselves! The news pictures in Europe is quite different than USA getting, and that makes me a bit concerned! Hamas using "fireworks" and Israel using heavy war machine! Palestinians is living in a camp wich Israel guarding! If I lived in Palestinia I would been a terrorist myselves! Why? Because I had no freedom! I had no hope! I see only blood coming my way! I agree and am very aware that the US media is one sided.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #329 January 6, 2009 Quote All Israel can do is clear out the parts of Gaza the rockets are being launched from so Hamas can't launch a rocket near enough to reach any town in Israel, Gaza is between 4 and 7.5 miles wide. It would be like clearing out the parts of Tijuana that are close enough to the US to provide illegal immigrants; not practical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #330 January 6, 2009 The rocket launchings into Israel by Hamas in December still didn't make any sense. Since Israel had already withdrawn from Gaza, what exactly was Hamas' goal? What exactly did they think would happen? I have not heard anyone give an articulate justification for the rockets. Anyone? Anyone? Beuller? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #331 January 6, 2009 Quote who said "racist"? what the hell are you talking about? btw, israelis come in all shapes, sizes and colors, yes, black too. What I was talking about was the highly intelligent comment made that apparently some one was sure that most Arabs Hate Jews. I find that to be retarded statement for many reasons the obvious how did that person read every arab mind? The other was too point out that the Palestinians hate the Israelis because of their actions, and if they were not Jews but Black the Palestinians would be saying racists remarks about blacks. Not because they were born with hatred for black people but because their expreince has been only negative. Quote unprovoked constant attacks Like I said that’s just a gem. If you really believe that there is no point in me even trying to mention every fuck up thing Israel does on a daily bases. It seems in your eyes the Palestinians have nothing to complain about or even be angry about. Unprovoked. After this war is over. I bet you think that the parents of the dead children, and all the people who lost loved ones are unprovoked as well right? They’re just crazyI'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #332 January 6, 2009 Quote And to believe that somehow the magic negro is going to be able to solve the Israeli/Palestinian crises, where all others have failed, just shows how unrealistic your expectations are. You know John, when the Magic Negro article was printed in the LA Times back in January 07 there was a fair bit of validity to the premise. The machine was pushing this guy hard and he had not made really any policy speeches of any kind. That is no longer true. Obama has laid out his plans in a number of areas (maybe not the Middle East policy, but that is a pretty tough nut). He is no longer the blank slate that raises considerable questions about the motives of those pushing him. To use the term today only displays your hate. My question is John, do you hate everyone who disagrees with your world view, or do you hate black people? or both? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #333 January 6, 2009 Quote believe it or not, no one in israel is happy to see innocent people getting hurt. Really? So there not a single person not to mention a group) of people who just want to get rid of all the Palestinians and take all the land?I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #334 January 6, 2009 Quote And to believe that somehow the magic negro Did you get that from your local KKK meeting JR? I know you secretly can't wait for the black version of Brokeback Mountain to be made.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #335 January 6, 2009 Quote It seems in your eyes the Palestinians have nothing to complain about or even be angry about. Unprovoked. that's exactly the problem, they never stop complaining. you know what ? you can't always have everything that you desire and sometimes its better to make do with what you have. and please spare me the "Israel took their land" speech, both nations have a valid claim on the same land and neither can have it all for itself. I care about Hebron just as much as your Palestinian friends care about Haifa, but I am willing to let it go and build something good on what I DO have. when Israel pulled out of Gaza, the palestinians there could have done the same and trust me, their situation would have been much better. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,029 #336 January 6, 2009 >So why is he keeping mum on this particular issue? Because people like you would crucify him for "undermining the president" and "his incredible arrogance" in thinking he's already president. I am glad we have one head of state speaking on this matter, and would like to keep it that way. >If he had some bright idea to end the conflict, he could telegraph it now for >the upcoming future in just 15-days . . . Right. And you know that he's not doing that because you are privy to all his communications with other senators and the president. Your desperate attempts to find something to hate about him will become much easier on Jan 20th; I suggest you save them until then. You'll be a lot more credible then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #337 January 6, 2009 Quote Right. And in the Arab version of Israel, you'll have the Palestinian only road as currently exists, and then you'll have the Jew road - a long drive off a short pier. Wow can you predict the lottery numbers for me too? You seem to no sooooooooo much nosterdomas. Before any Jew only roads were built there were people of all races and religion including Christians living in the area. Once the Israelis got their stolen land and the big sticks from the US to inforce we have Jew only roads. Great to see people have learned from the mistakes of the past. You keep on fighting for them no matter what the facts are. Quote Like all the other democracies in the Arab world....oh wait a second We have seen how the west and Israel reacts to Democratic elected officials that they don’t want and they can’t control. Most of the time they call them terrorist.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #338 January 6, 2009 Quote Really? So there not a single person not to mention a group) of people who just want to get rid of all the Palestinians and take all the land? no, there are actually 6 of them. 7 on wednesdays... stop knit picking and focus on what's important. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #339 January 6, 2009 Quote Quote Tip: He's not the President yet. Hint: it hasn't kept him from trying to influence numerous other things already in the works, like the economic stimulus package. So why is he keeping mum on this particular issue? He is a Senator, as well as President Elect. It's entirely appropriate to talk about domestic issues. But the President represents the US to the world, as well as controlling the military. That is currently George Bush. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #340 January 6, 2009 Quote Quote All Israel can do is clear out the parts of Gaza the rockets are being launched from so Hamas can't launch a rocket near enough to reach any town in Israel, Gaza is between 4 and 7.5 miles wide. It would be like clearing out the parts of Tijuana that are close enough to the US to provide illegal immigrants; not practical. Point taken. Didn't realize it was that small. I'd bet Hamas hid most of their stored weapons in congested neighborhoods or cities with lots of people around too. Hell, even placed or forced a bunch of people to stand on the roofs of such military targets as well. However you look at it, it's going to be a mess if Israel goes through everything."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #341 January 6, 2009 Quote OK, question for Darius: Prior to Israel's retaliation, why exactly was Hamas firing rockets into Israel in December? Read Idrankwhats post Quote "Could you make a living for your family if you were locked in your house with the influx of power, internet and groceries as well as the outflow of your waste and any marketable product dependent on the whim of a neighbor who dislikes you? I'm willing to bet that you might take any weapon that you have in your arsenal to try to rectify the situation. I have written on this subject so much. I am not trying to be dick but honestly just read what the Palestinian have to put up with every single day. When there is no war. Just do a quick search and read. That’s what I find so frustrating the lack of acknowledgment of their suffering not right now when there is war but every single day. I also love it when people try to separate and make the Palestinian actions seem nuts while many would act in a much more violent manner if they were in the Palestinians place.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #342 January 6, 2009 Quote What are you supposed to do when faced with that kind of fucked up shit? Here is what you do. You take a step back and remember that we are all humane. That most are not born with the intention to die as a matter of fact it is the most unnatural thing you can do. So ask your self what could drive a man, woman, or child to decide that they would sacrifice their life to fight an enemy? Try to think how much desperation, and suffering much you endure to reach that conclusion. You can believe what you want. I have been to a bunch of places and have had the pleasure of living in totally different cultures. We all want the same things Safety, a chance to grow, a chance to live, and the same for our children. When those are takin away and there is one group you hold responsible for all your and your peoples pain that’s when people do fuck up shit.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #343 January 6, 2009 Quote Quote Like all the other democracies in the Arab world....oh wait a second We have seen how the west and Israel reacts to Democratic elected officials that they don’t want and they can’t control. Most of the time they call them terrorist. If the shoe fits...the frame of reference problem with "terrorist" aside, it's the appropriate word for those who launch rockets and suicide bombers at civilian targets. Why should Israel recognize a government whose purpose for existence is their destruction? I know - you have this notion that the Israelis should play Jesus and just accept some collateral damage (ie, deaths) in order to further the peace process. Turn the other cheek, and hope they'll be nice. Worked great for Jesus, right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #344 January 6, 2009 Quote no, there are actually 6 of them. 7 on wednesdays... stop knit picking and focus on what's important. Don't make BS statments then. Simple as that.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #345 January 6, 2009 Quote Quote OK, question for Darius: Prior to Israel's retaliation, why exactly was Hamas firing rockets into Israel in December? Read Idrankwhats post Quote "Could you make a living for your family if you were locked in your house with the influx of power, internet and groceries as well as the outflow of your waste and any marketable product dependent on the whim of a neighbor who dislikes you? I'm willing to bet that you might take any weapon that you have in your arsenal to try to rectify the situation. I have written on this subject so much. I am not trying to be dick but honestly just read what the Palestinian have to put up with every single day. When there is no war. Just do a quick search and read. That’s what I find so frustrating the lack of acknowledgment of their suffering not right now when there is war but every single day. I also love it when people try to separate and make the Palestinian actions seem nuts while many would act in a much more violent manner if they were in the Palestinians place. Still doesnt' explain the thought process. Suppose you are the Hamas guy getting ready to launch rockets (in December). What are you thinking? "I am going to fire these rockets into Israel. I am doing this because I believe it will cause Israel to respond by _______________ " What was the Hamas guy thinking there? Can you fill in the blank? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #346 January 6, 2009 Quote Don't make BS statments then. Simple as that. takes one to know one, i guess... let me put it in simple words so you'll get the message... civilians die in Gaza because Hamas launches attacks from their back yards. your claim that Israel should hold back because of that doesn't make sense. If Hamas respects the rules of engagement (i,e seperate combatants from civilians) fewer civilians will get hurt. fighting door to door in Gaza is not exactly on our "happy to do" list. it sux, it puts our soldiers at risk (most of the structures are packed with explosives) and it puts civilians in the middle. but guess who benfits from all of the above? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #347 January 6, 2009 Quote The rocket launchings into Israel by Hamas in December still didn't make any sense. Since Israel had already withdrawn from Gaza, what exactly was Hamas' goal? What exactly did they think would happen? I have not heard anyone give an articulate justification for the rockets. Anyone? Anyone? Beuller? The link I posted earlier should help answer the question. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7191359.stm Yes, Israel pulled their settlers and their troops out of Gaza but then it was turned into a concentration camp that was recognized (by most) as a serious humanitarian crisis prior to December. I can easily understand how most Americans were unaware due to our "liberal media" dropping the ball on this one, again. I don't agree with Hamas' tactics, and I really think that there was a small window of opportunity that was missed right after their election. IMO, there was a small chance to start some constructive dialog at that moment. We needed an honest broker to step in but we chose to shut them out completely. (It's certainly not the first time that the US has had problems with a democratically elected leadership). Two more weeks. Two more weeks. Let's hope we don't get another "hypocrite in chief". (which means that we need to keep Hillary out of it) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #348 January 6, 2009 Quote If the shoe fits...the frame of reference problem with "terrorist" aside, it's the appropriate word for those who launch rockets and suicide bombers at civilian targets. So dropping a bomb in a crowded street knowing that inocent lives will be killed should be considered an act of terrorism. You see the unfortunate thing for you is you will spin and wiggle and change what you just stated. Because for some reason its ok when the Israelis kill people even with there better equipment and much more advanced army. But if an Arab does it he is a “Terrorist” Hypocrisy.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #349 January 6, 2009 Quote let me put it in simple words so you'll get the message... civilians die in Gaza because Hamas launches attacks from their back yards. your claim that Israel should hold back because of that doesn't make sense. If Hamas respects the rules of engagement (i,e seperate combatants from civilians) fewer civilians will get hurt. Whos rules Ori? Isreils? Or International law? You don’t like it when the UN tries to bring peacekeepers. When we mention how many UN resolution Israel has violated all of a sudden none of rules matter. Stop changing your standards for right and wrong just so you can say Israel is right. Set your standard then look at the facts and judge honestly. Quote fighting door to door in Gaza is not exactly on our "happy to do" list. it sux, it puts our soldiers at risk (most of the structures are packed with explosives) and it puts civilians in the middle. but guess who benfits from all of the above? If all the Effects from this war are negatives for all then why do you try to justify it? I agree nothing good will come from this. Hamas will be stronger and will have more willing recruits understandably so. It is a stupid move on so many parts.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #350 January 6, 2009 Quote Yes, Israel pulled their settlers and their troops out of Gaza but then it was turned into a concentration camp that was recognized (by most) as a serious humanitarian crisis prior to December. two notes: 1. it doesn't say anywhere that Israel has to supply Gaza with anything. Gaza has a border with Egypt. Hamas dag hundreds of tunnels under the border and they could smuggle food instead of rockets and explosives, right? 2. Israel DID supply Gaza with fuel, electricity and supplies (again, to a hostile governmet). do you want the list of times Hamas has blown up the border crossings? if Hamas blows up these crossings, can you blaim israel for not reopening them? seriously... anad again, the fact that they were democratically elected has no impact on anything. the choises they make is the only thing that matters O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
