falxori 0 #451 January 8, 2009 Quote If Israel had ended the blockade, Hamas may have renewed the truce first of all, once Israel pulled out of Gaza, it doesnt HAVE to provide them with anything. second, Hamas could have brought in food and medical supplies the same way it brought in tons of rockets and explosives. third, whenever Israel DID open the border crossings, Hamas tried to blow them up (and some times succeeded). so basically, Israel was providing supplies to an enemy who wants to destroy it. Hamas did anything it can to destroy the crossings and very few of the supplies who actually got in went to the civilians. so no, i dont think "just opening the borders" would have stopped the rockets. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #452 January 8, 2009 Whoops (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #453 January 8, 2009 definitely something that shouldn't have happened. if it makes you any happier, 4 Israeli soldiers were killed and about 30 were wounded when an Israeli tank hit them by accident. sadly, friendly fire is part of war. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #454 January 8, 2009 To Everyone: When you were a kid & started fighting with your siblings in the back of the car, what did your parents do? If after they told you to stop, could you use the excuse "S/He hit me first!" What did your parents do, and what should we do about the Palestinians/Israelis? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #455 January 8, 2009 Quote If after they told you to stop, could you use the excuse "S/He hit me first!" What did your parents do, and what should we do about the Palestinians/Israelis? Play favorites and collect campaign donations from arms manufacturers? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #456 January 8, 2009 Or just pull the car over & refuse to move until they knock it off? Stuff both kids in the trunk? Sell them both to the gypsies? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #457 January 8, 2009 Quote Whoops Kinda what happens when you enter a war zone"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #458 January 8, 2009 Quote Quote If Israel had ended the blockade, Hamas may have renewed the truce first of all, once Israel pulled out of Gaza, it doesnt HAVE to provide them with anything. I'm sorry, but that statement is complete bullshit. Regardless of whether or not Israel has settlers in Gaza it is still the occupying power, and therefore, has the responsibility for the residents of Gaza. The blockade is against international law, as is collective punishment. Israel controls the territorial waters, land borders (with one tiny exception), the airspace, the electromagnetic spectrum, power, water, import and export of all goods, customs, tax revenues. Gazans rely on Israel for everything they need to survive. To say that Israel has no responsibility for the people of Gaza is simply ridiculous, as is the notion that 1.3 million people can be fed, supplied with medicine and run trade through smuggling tunnels. Actually simply ridiculous is an understatement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #459 January 8, 2009 prejudiced? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #460 January 8, 2009 Quote I'm sorry, but that statement is complete bullshit. no it's not. there is an (elected) government in Gaza who refuse the recognize treaties and openly declared war on Israel. show me another case in history when two states (and for all matter at hand, Gaza is a self governing state since Israel left) are at a state of war and one continues to supply the other with supplies, power, water etc. the fact that they rely on israel doesnt mean that israel HAS to supply them with anything (and yet it does). there was hardly any electricity, water works and other infrastructures when Israel was formed but with hard work, we've built them. Gaza could have done the same when Israel pulled out, but they chose not to. being poor and miserable serve their purposes just like keeping all of the 1948 refugees in camps for 60 years (there were as many jewish refugees in 1948 that were kicked out of arab countries). so no, Israel doesn't HAVE to supply gaza with anything once it pulled out. Hamas could have smuggled supplies instead of rockets and guess what, if they did, instead of blowing up the crossings, the borders would have beem pretty open. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #461 January 8, 2009 These must be really ignorant people. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/09fighter.html?_r=1&hpWe are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #462 January 8, 2009 Maybe we should let Gu Gu the Panda loose over there. http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D95J4QC00&show_article=1We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #463 January 9, 2009 Quote prejudiced? Sorry, but I'm not following. edited to add: Nevermind, I lost the flow of the thread for a second. Sorry. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #464 January 9, 2009 Quote Quote I'm sorry, but that statement is complete bullshit. no it's not. there is an (elected) government in Gaza who refuse the recognize treaties and openly declared war on Israel. Quote Israel and the US never recognized Hamas as the elected government. They/we immediately ignored them and recognized the loser of the election as the leadership. The idea was to make things so tough for the Gazans that they would turn against their democratically elected leadership. From day one after Hamas was elected their leadership was targeted for assassination or arrested. Quote show me another case in history when two states (and for all matter at hand, Gaza is a self governing state since Israel left) are at a state of war and one continues to supply the other with supplies, power, water etc. the fact that they rely on israel doesnt mean that israel HAS to supply them with anything (and yet it does). The Fourth Geneva Convention applies here, regarding occupying power and collective punishment. Quote there was hardly any electricity, water works and other infrastructures when Israel was formed but with hard work, we've built them. Gaza could have done the same when Israel pulled out, but they chose not to. How? How can they do anything when they rely on Israel for everything? It's like tying my dog to a tree and then beating him because he won't come when I call him. Quote being poor and miserable serve their purposes just like keeping all of the 1948 refugees in camps for 60 years (there were as many jewish refugees in 1948 that were kicked out of arab countries). so no, Israel doesn't HAVE to supply gaza with anything once it pulled out. Hamas could have smuggled supplies instead of rockets and guess what, if they did, instead of blowing up the crossings, the borders would have beem pretty open. I can see that this is going to go nowhere. I see a person in proximity to war who has decided upon a certain degree of acceptable humanitarian suffering. I'm a person not in proximity to the war but who disagrees with all humanitarian suffering and who accepts the rules of war as they've been laid out. I complain when my country violates them just as loudly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #465 January 9, 2009 No, it doen't make me happier - in the slightest. That is NOT my point, never has been. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #466 January 9, 2009 Quote Quote Whoops Kinda what happens when you enter a war zone Well, that's O.K then - glad we sorted that out (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #467 January 9, 2009 Quote Israel and the US never recognized Hamas as the elected government. to clear this once and for all. Hamas won the elections for Parliment. it took the government by a military que against Abbas. and yet again, the fact that you won't talk with a foregin government (who swore to destroy you) doesn't mean you need to supply their people with anything. Quote The Fourth Geneva Convention applies here, regarding occupying power in the west bank, yes. In Gaza, not once Israel pulled out. Quote How? How can they do anything when they rely on Israel for everything? by stop relying on Israel (or stop attacking it all the time). or rely on egypt (their second neighbour). Quote I can see that this is going to go nowhere yeap. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mfnren 2 #468 January 9, 2009 Isreal has occupied gaza for over 50 years and still does. Yes, they have pulled settlers out of gaza,but still have a blockade around the entire region, it is a prison camp. This is not a war, it is a massacre. There have been over 2 thousand palestinian deaths and wounded. 50% are women and children. There have been 8 Isreali deaths, 4 of which were soldiers killed by other Isrealis. And approximately 30 injuries. "In response, Hamas and others in Gaza again resorted to firing crude, homemade, and mainly inaccurate rockets into Israel. During the past seven years, these rockets have been responsible for the deaths of 17 Israelis. Over the same time span, Israeli Blitzkrieg assaults have killed thousands of Palestinians, drawing worldwide protest but falling on deaf ears at the UN." (Shamus Cooke, The Massacre in Palestine and the Threat of a Wider War, Global Research, December 2008) A doctor in Gaza speaking about the casualties. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev6ojm62qwA&feature=related Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #469 January 9, 2009 this is almost too easy... you can at least make a small effort to check your "facts" instead of quoting cheap propaganda... Quote Isreal has occupied gaza for over 50 years last time I checked, 1967-2005 is not over 50 years. Quote In response, Hamas and others in Gaza again resorted to firing crude, homemade, and mainly inaccurate rockets into Israel "in response" huh? even Hamas itself doesn't claim it was in "response" to anything. the broke the cease fire and fired hundredes of rockets in the week prior to this operation. and I wonder if these what would you do if these"crude, homemade, and mainly inaccurate rockets" were on your house. not to mention that Hamas also fires military grade Grad rockets and mortar shells into Israeli towns. (at least your not claiming they're throwing rocks...) Quote There have been over 2 thousand palestinian deaths and wounded. 50% are women and children. you don't know that since Hamas is reporting its armed militants as civilians as well. but yes, there are civilians getting hurt. and they can only blame Hamas for using them as human shields. or is it your suggestion that if they fire from a civilian home, they should be untouchable? Quote Shamus Cooke, The Massacre in Palestine and the Threat of a Wider War yeah, very objective... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #470 January 9, 2009 Quote Quote I can see that this is going to go nowhere yeap. Which is why I think that we should deny Israel any of our financial aid until the blockade is lifted, settlement expansion is halted, international peacekeepers are allowed in to help, and Israel agrees to most if not all of the Geneva Initiative. That said, I'll have to admit, if I were in your shoes I don't know that I wouldn't be at the point where I just didn't care anymore. "Fuck 'em all, let them die". I hope not but it's entirely possible. But even if I felt that way it would still be wrong. That's why we need strong leadership to step in and make thoughtful decisions about what is right, what is humane and what is best for all parties in the long run. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #471 January 9, 2009 Quote Which is why I think that we should deny Israel any of our financial aid do you know that the Palestinians have been getting more per-capita aid than anyone else in the world? would you stop that too? Quote international peacekeepers are allowed in to help I believe Israel would welcome this. IF they are effective. the ones in Lebanon have been doing nothing and often helping Hezbollah. actually, the 2005 agreement concerning the border crossing between Gaza and Egypt has placed European "peace keepers" there. it didn't stop the Palestinians from breaching the border line and creating their own "open border" with egypt (not to mention the hundreds of illegal tunnels. Quote Israel agrees to most if not all of the Geneva Initiative maybe valid when speaking about the PA. how can you even mention the words "agrrement" when Hamas openly declares that it will not respect any treaty signed by the PA in the past? you have to make the difference between the PA and Hamas. Quote if I were in your shoes I don't know that I wouldn't be at the point where I just didn't care anymore. "Fuck 'em all, let them die". well i AM in my shoes and I never said that. I just know who we're dealing with here. Hamas (and to a lesser extent Arafat when he went back to violence in 2000) has caused more damage to the Palestinians than they did to Israel. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tumbler 0 #472 January 9, 2009 This appears to be one of the few unemotional, cogent posts in this string. Amazing what a clear head can think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #473 January 9, 2009 Quote do you know that the Palestinians have been getting more per-capita aid than anyone else in the world? Per capita... theirs has gone up now (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #474 January 9, 2009 Do you demand the same terms compliance from Palestine?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #475 January 9, 2009 Quote Quote Which is why I think that we should deny Israel any of our financial aid do you know that the Palestinians have been getting more per-capita aid than anyone else in the world? would you stop that too? Not right away. They're on the wrong side of an illegal blockade. Quote international peacekeepers are allowed in to help I believe Israel would welcome this. IF they are effective. the ones in Lebanon have been doing nothing and often helping Hezbollah. You forgot to mention that they were also documenting the daily Israeli mock bombing missions into Lebanon before the IDF blew up their outpost. Two can play the cherry picking of facts game but neither tells the whole story. Quote actually, the 2005 agreement concerning the border crossing between Gaza and Egypt has placed European "peace keepers" there. it didn't stop the Palestinians from breaching the border line and creating their own "open border" with egypt (not to mention the hundreds of illegal tunnels. It was a full blown humanitarian crisis after Israel implemented a full blockade. The border was breached so that people (more aptly "prisoners") could get food and supplies. At least Egypt realized the severity of the situation and allowed the relief. And correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the extent of peacekeeper presence in the form of remote video monitoring by the UN and Israel? Quote Israel agrees to most if not all of the Geneva Initiative maybe valid when speaking about the PA. how can you even mention the words "agrrement" when Hamas openly declares that it will not respect any treaty signed by the PA in the past? But they also declared that they could live in peace, side by side, with Israel, last April after meeting with Carter. Admittedly, their description of the circumstances was weird and difficult to understand but the general idea was "living side by side in peace". That was another missed opportunity. A strong and even remotely interested leadership would have taken advantage of that window of opportunity. Quote you have to make the difference between the PA and Hamas. And the difference between Hamas and Gazans needs to be recognized as well. Collective punishment is wrong. Quote if I were in your shoes I don't know that I wouldn't be at the point where I just didn't care anymore. "Fuck 'em all, let them die". well i AM in my shoes and I never said that. I just know who we're dealing with here. Hamas (and to a lesser extent Arafat when he went back to violence in 2000) has caused more damage to the Palestinians than they did to Israel. IMO Arafat's leadership was a mixed bag. Good work along with corruption led to being ineffective in the long run. Of course having a tank outside your door limited his options during the last few years. Fatah was heading in the same direction. Many in Gaza saw the Fatah leadership enjoying the good life while the people suffered. That's why they got kicked out. Quote
