tumbler 0 #676 January 18, 2009 QuoteQuoteIts amazing when you base your opinion on actual experience and not episodes of 24. oh really,,, and how many times have you been to Gaza, Israel or the rest of the places you speak of so much with so much confidence? do you want me to scan my passport? or actually, what passport should I scan? I carry two, one with Israeli stamps and one without... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tumbler 0 #677 January 18, 2009 Why do you hate so much? is it learned or so practiced that you cannot reply in any other way? If you want to speak for everyone then open your eyes and speak from a pulpit that carries no hate... that would be something cool!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #678 January 18, 2009 QuoteWhy do you hate so much? is it learned or so practiced that you cannot reply in any other way? If you want to speak for everyone then open your eyes and speak from a pulpit that carries no hate... that would be something cool!! Geee.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tumbler 0 #679 January 18, 2009 Thats the best you can do? from Wiki? I expected more... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #680 January 18, 2009 Facts is facts Bubba Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tumbler 0 #681 January 18, 2009 Wiki aint facts bro... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #682 January 18, 2009 Quotedo you want me to scan my passport? or actually, what passport should I scan? I carry two, one with Israeli stamps and one without... I wasn't talking to you... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tumbler 0 #683 January 18, 2009 then you are taking the fun out of this conversation! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #684 January 18, 2009 Ah.. So sayeth the FAUX NEWS BushBot... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #685 January 18, 2009 QuoteI'm sorry but you can’t back this with factual history. oh, I can, and very easily... look at the comparison of military might in past major wars: (this is from wikipedia, they sometimes compare apples to oranges, but I think its pretty close...) 1948-49 Israel: 29,677 initially rising to 115,000 by March 1949. This includes the entire military personnel count- both combat units and logistical units. Arabs (Only forces sent to the former British mandate, not all of the military) Egypt: 10,000 initially rising to 20,000 Iraq: 5,000 initially rising to 15–18,000 Syria: 2,500–5,000 Jordan: 6,000–12,000 Lebanon: 1,000 initially rising to 2,000[2] Saudi Arabia: 800–1,200 Arab Liberation Army: 3,500-6,000 1967 Israel: 264,000 (incl. 214,000 reserve troops) 300 combat aircraft 800 tanks Egypt: 240,000 Syria, Jordan, and Iraq: 307,000 957 combat aircraft 2,504 tanks 1973 Israel: 415,000 troops, 2,300 tanks, 3,000 armored carriers, 945 artillery units,[2] 561 airplanes, 84 helicopters, 38 Navy vessels[3] Egypt: 800,000 troops (300,000 deployed, 80,000 crossed), 1,700 tanks (1,020 crossed),2,400 armored carriers, 1,120 artillery units,[2] 400 combat aircraft, 140 helicopters, 104 Navy vessels, Syria: 150,000 troops (60,000 deployed), 1,400 tanks, 800–900 armored carriers, 600 artillery units, 350 airplanes, 36 helicopters, 21 Navy vessels, Iraq: 60,000 troops, 700 tanks, 500 armored carriers, 200 artillery units, 73 airplanes, QuoteNever, ever have the Arabs been able to "take on" Israel and the US, first of all, the US has NEVER actively faught in any of these wars. it did supply Israel with crucial supplies (especially in 1973). on the other side, the USSR did the same for the arab counries and they received equipment, training and consulting from the Russians. So, in pure numbers and equipment, Israel is outnumbered, the US aid to Israel is pretty much the same as the Arabs got from the Russians (and today Egypts gets pretty much the same from the US as Israel) so, there you go... facts... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #686 January 18, 2009 Well on the plus side Ori... the Jordanians and the Egyptians did get tired of getting their asses kicked and were smart enough to make peace. I am sure they do not love that fact but at least they are not as GOAT FUCK STUPID as the others surrounding your country who cant face reality. Maybe someday cooler heads will prevail and Gaza will be a resort destination on the Med. Your people have far more in common with the Palistinians than differences.. as do most people once they decide to see the similarities rather than the differences. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #687 January 18, 2009 Well Ori. I have lived about half my life in the Middle East and half my life in the west. i didn't go site seeing i actually lived their and experienced the different cultures. I have a bunch of trips here and there but i can't really count the one week here or there as you doin't get much of the culture. What i find amazing and what i was commenting on is something i have noticed. Most people who have experienced a different culture and had a chance to reside in it for a while realize the same thing. That most of us are the same, we want the same things. I have always mentioned this it was refreshing to see some on else actually understand it as well. The people who do are usually people who have actually resided in another culture. The people who have not tend to think some people are so different and they are so much better. We have so many on here who want to paint some people as naturally born violent to me that is nothing more then ignorance. Most of us are a product of our experiences, and our environment. Quoteoh really,,, and how many times have you been to Gaza, Israel or the rest of the places you speak of so much with so much confidence? As for Gaza or Israeli some how i get the feeling i would not be allowed to enter. I know a few American born Christian visitors who had 12-18 hr interviewees before they were allowed to enter. I know i can not enter with my Iranian passport, and even my US passport 9i have had it for only 4 years) says i was born in Iran do you really think your government would allow me in? Israel is not a open country to Muslims or anyone who might show them in a negative light. They are very good at making sure no one sees what they truly stand for.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #688 January 18, 2009 Quote Most of us are a product of our experiences, and our environment. Yup they sure are. http://www.pmw.org.il/tv-hamas.htm Do you think this is the best way to teach children to live in peace... or...........?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #689 January 18, 2009 Well thanks for the explaination, I guess now we can disband the International Criminal Court. Sorry but its a war all war is a crime is not a valid excuse. When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #690 January 18, 2009 QuoteWell Ori. I have lived about half my life in the Middle East and half my life in the west. yes, but not as an Israeli, Israeli Arab or a Palestinian. in may of your posts you miss the important differences between them. My point is that you may have the same "problem" when commenting about these issues as the people you say have never been to the middle east. living only in the US, living in Iran and living here in Israel have advantages and disadvantages that affect your (and my) ability to both see the different cultures and have a certain bias. QuoteWe have so many on here who want to paint some people as naturally born violent to me that is nothing more then ignorance. Most of us are a product of our experiences, and our environment. I agree, but at the end, we all have a choice. our choices define us. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #691 January 18, 2009 Quote Well thanks for the explaination, I guess now we can disband the International Criminal Court. Sorry but its a war all war is a crime is not a valid excuse. That's whats most disturbing the hypocrisy and the wiggling some do to justify all the violations of international laws Israel has repeatedly committed. I am sure there were people making excuses for the Nazi party at a time as well. This is a classic case of the abused child growing up to abuse children maybe they didn't get to therapy soon enough. What ever the cause it is a sad case for all.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #692 January 18, 2009 QuoteI am sure there were people making excuses for the Nazi party at a time as well. you really can't see the difference? I mean, really, are your claims so weak that this is what you need to rely on? I honestly hope that neither you, nor the palestinians (nor anybody else) would face a situation were they are hunted down and killed for their race not for land, not for difference of culture, not for resource and not for politics. there are examples where the killing took the scale of a genocide (The Armenians,Bosnia, Rwanda, etc.) and even there the dispute is over land or culture. can you really not see the difference between that and a systematic destruction of a religion, going across nations, countries and cultures? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #693 January 18, 2009 QuoteMy point is that you may have the same "problem" when commenting about these issues as the people you say have never been to the middle east. I agree that i don't know as much as people who have been living in Israel, and Gaza. However i feel i understand the culture much better then someone who has never lived in the Middle East and have been exposed to more sources for information then what is available in the US (not saying they have more facts they just show the other side). This is a subject i have spent a great amount of time on it is mainly because i can't believe it is happening over and over. In my opinion there was a huge injustice done to the Palestinians. We have goon back and froth about who started what and when. We just disagree. I would never wish harm on you or the Israeli people. I would never make or have made a blanket statement "lets kill them all". I find these statements are made by fools who view themselves as geniuses. However if you are going to use a standard to justify right and wrong you must apply that standard equally to all. When you change and apply different standards depending on who committed the act we have hypocrisy. Also as i have mentioned before the media here is a joke and has always been a joke when it comes to Israeli. The Israeli news papers printed in Israel are less bias. I have yet to see one person on here say HAMAS is doing a great job, or kill all the Israelis. Yet you see that said often on the other side. I have yet to see one person say it is ok that hamas is killing civilians, all we acknowledge is the fact that they are mush less capable and less sophisticated then the IDF. Yet all you hear is excuse after excuse when the IDF violats rules of war.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #694 January 18, 2009 Quote you really can't see the difference? I mean, really, are your claims so weak that this is what you need to rely on? He fully knows the difference, but knows that saying it will get a rise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #695 January 18, 2009 Quoteyou really can't see the difference? I mean, really, are your claims so weak that this is what you need to rely on? Not in numbers but In philosophy they are the same. The idea that a group is better or is entitled to something because of there religion or race and others are not, the practise of segregation, no respect for international laws, GAZA is basically a prison colony. Just look at a check point at 3am while the Palestinians are waiting to cross over so they can do the jobs that the Israelis don't want to. its like a slave colony. I say in some ways in the crushing of the humane spirit it is even worst. 60 years that's a life time of dealing with injustice. i honestly don't know how one could not lose their mind.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #696 January 18, 2009 QuoteHowever i feel i understand the culture much better that's my point, YOU feel. I'm sure THEY feel the same. what you consider "seeing both sides" looks pretty one sided from where I'm standing. you might be as guilty as the people you accuse... QuoteAlso as i have mentioned before the media here is a joke and has always been a joke when it comes to Israeli. The Israeli news papers printed in Israel are less bias. Again, I see the foreign press as biased to the other side, looking for the story that sells rather than looking at the reasons behind it. no point in debating this, its a matter of opinion. I have never said "let's kill them all" not have I supported people saying that here. but, just like you want people to make the difference and not use "all", you have to accept the fact that there is a huge difference between the Palestinians as a people and Hamas which is nothing more than a terror organization, causing more damage to the Palestinians than to Israel. you turn into a "saint" anyone that fights Israel, no matter why, how or what for. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #697 January 18, 2009 QuoteNot in numbers but In philosophy they are the same. That simply shows your lack of understanding of what happen during WWII and what's happening now. all I can say is that it makes me sad... QuoteThe idea that a group is better or is entitled to something because of there religion or race from the decleration of independence of Israel: Quoteit will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; now, even if you think that Israel don't practice its own rules, I suggest you google the Nurnberg race law and then tell me if you see a difference or not. QuoteJust look at a check point at 3am while the Palestinians are waiting to cross over as opposed to the border crossing between the US and Mexico or any other country? again, you mix Palestinians who are NOT israeli citizens and Israeli Arabs which are citizens with the same rights as I have (but dont serve in the army) "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #698 January 18, 2009 Quotethat's my point, YOU feel. I'm sure THEY feel the same. what you consider "seeing both sides" looks pretty one sided from where I'm standing. Its not just a feeling in my gut it as international law. Like i said before it seems people want to wiggle and twist the laws to their convenience. So i might feel sorry for the Palestinians as i see them as the oppressed and the weak, but i also can easily factually see the international laws that have been repeatedly violated. I can see that if it was not for the US vetoing every thing the UN has ever tried to do Israeli might be much more restricted or would have to compromise, i can see the capability of HAMAS and the IDF. Again this is like Tyson beating up a baby and there are people cheering for mike. I just don't get it. I know you have not said kill them all. You show great restraint considering where you are. However you commented on my post about people who form opinion because of episodes of 24. Basically your making my point. You who are directly effected by what is going on can understand how these statements are ignorant but people who have never experienced or lived on location seem to think they know enough to justify genocide. Again that's was my point. The people making blanket statement should SHUT THE FUCK UP and read a book or go travel a bit and maybe even learn something. No matter hwat we will never agree. I hope you stay safe and they all some day find justice and peace. We have snow i think i am making chilli.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #699 January 18, 2009 Quote Well thanks for the explaination, I guess now we can disband the International Criminal Court. Sorry but its a war all war is a crime is not a valid excuse. That's what you cherry-pick so you can spin? Glad I took the time to compose a careful post. That's why MidEast threads are a waste of energy - they're just vorteces that suck in everything without discrimination, and give back nothing productive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #700 January 19, 2009 The Palestinians may have legitimate greivances against Israel, but that does NOT excuse what Hamas did. Hamas is deliberately using the Palestinians as pawns. Hamas was firing rockets from civilian areas knowing FULL WELL what would happen. And Hamas was hoping to capitalize on the civilian collateral damage that they knew would happen when Israel finally retaliated. THAT is a fact that Darius is glossing over. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
