billvon 3,073
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nerdgirl 0
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Several studies show that both Christian and Islam believers grow at a rate of about 2.5-3% per year.
Would you provide links to those?
Is that growth rate above or below the population growth rate?
For what religious sects is the observed growth? Thanks.
VR/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
nerdgirl 0
QuoteQuoteQuoteI believe in evolution and that seemed straight forward untill I found
>out about 'Bacterial Flagellum'
The argument there is that since the flagellal motor is so complex, and cannot work as independent parts, there's no way for it to evolve without all the parts being there.
That argument is, however, incorrect. The "stator" of the flagellal motor is nearly identical to one type of ionic pump, one use by many cells. When the right protein is stuck into such a pump, it spins due to the action of the pump. Thus, it evolved as a pump, and evolution then adapted it for use as the motive power for the flagella.
Good example of: Preconceived conclusions + scientific theory + faith ==== FACT...
Would you explain your assertion?
Where specifically is there indication of "preconceived conclusion" in what Bill wrote?
If primary (DNA sequence), secondary (folding), and tertiary protein structures are conserved, how is that anything other than a fact? That's akin to noting the absorption band of iron porphyrin (the active molecule in hemoglobin in red blood cells); the specific nanometer (nm) wavelength of light in the UV-Vis spectrum changes depending on whether oxygen or cyanide is bonded to the iron atom not whether a Jew, Hindu, or secular humanist is observing it. Conclusions are what one makes based on conservation of structure across species.
VR/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
pirana 0
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThose who place their faith in science can't explain how it all fits together.
That's not true. Science fits together very well. One of the main criterion for being accepted as a valid scientific theory is that it is self-consistent and fits in with everything else we know to be true. If it fails any of those tests, it gets dumped. Just because you can't explain how science fits it all together doesn't mean that others can't.
Stephen Hawking would disagree.
So would Albert Einstein.
With which part(s)? That science fits together, or the criterion for a valid theory, or that things get dumped, or that just because one human can't figure it out doesn't mean that others can't?
Some combination of those, all of the above?
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley
nerdgirl 0
Quoteuntill I found out about 'Bacterial Flagellum'
http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/irreducible_complexity_01.html
Quite, a complex conversation but simple in theory.
Concur. Perhaps it is an example of where lex parsimoniae creates more problems than it may be worth. [Tangent: I’ve found it curious to observe that social scientists tend to refer to the “Law of Parsimony” whereas physical and life scientists generally talk about Occam’s Razor.]
Also may illustrate the power of images (image and subsequent connotation of other characteristics of a mechanical motor) that convey features that are not reflected in the structural biology. A bacteria flagellum is not a mechanical motor. Similar over-simplifications or mis-simplifications are observed commonly with nanotechnology.
As Albert Einstein wrote in 1933 that “The supreme goal of all theory is to make the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as possible without having to surrender the adequate representation of a single datum of experience,” which is often paraphrased as “theories should be as simple as possible, but no simpler.” The notion of irreducible complexity as indicator of ‘intelligent design’ may be an example of trying push to far along the spectrum to the ‘simple’ side.
VR/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
pirana 0
Quote
Not really. Scientists are basically "faithless" in terms of what they "believe" of science. Someone comes along who can prove that ether doesn't exist, they switch their fundamental understandings.Quote
Science and technology is great and wonderful. The problem arises when some scientists take what they know and extrapolate it into saying, " this just happened by fortuitous chance, no god necessary".
That conclusion is purely a faith based construct.
Let the scientists thrive and prosper, but they should call their faith based conclusions for what they are, a religious expression of secular humanism. A religion.
...
No God necessary is not the same thing as saying there is no God. In fact, the world and everything in it could have been created by God, and He might have left proof of His deeds, and no God necessary might still be true.
Logic, . . . it's not for everybody.
If you must drink, don't derive." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley
pirana 0
QuoteQuote
Stephen Hawking would disagree.
The difference between science and religion is that one person doesn't decide the "truth."
Scientists can and do disagree, and go on to debate, sometimes stooping to childish levels, but it's all about verifiable information.
The Church excommunicates. In the older days (as well as certain parts of the world), they imprison and kill the heretics.
Yup, in the Good Old Days Hawking would have been crucified.
Or maybe they would have just taken away his batteries.
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley
pirana 0
QuoteQuoteWe still don't know why.
Outside of the human thirst for meaning, is there any why?
Well, there is a lot of cause and effect.
But if you mean intent, or with purpose. No, there is no intent to the natural world outside of human thought (and maybe a few other chordates).
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley
pirana 0
QuoteQuoteNow we know how the planets formed.
No we don't. There's theories and inferences.
Get with the times. Read up on current findings.
We have now been able to image other solar systems in all stages of development - including the first visual images of planets. You do not even need to go as far as the very stuffy reading of journals and annals. Just pick up Astronomy magazine, the more current edition the better because we are discovering shit at an amazing pace.
3 or 4 years ago the experts were saying we'd be visualizing exo-planets in another decade or 2. Even the experts underestimate the constantly increasing pace of change. We're probably scant years (maybe months) away from hard confirmation of atmospheres around other planets that could support life as we know it.
Imagine the impact to the communal human psyche when we first confirm an Earth like planet. A place with lots of water, similar atmosphere, moderate temperatures, seasons, (and no Starbucks). I hope I get to witness it.
Meanwhile we will still have people insisting WE are God's chosen children, the center of the universe, blah, blah, blah. . . .
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley
pirana 0
QuoteQuote
Science doesn't explain away God. The percentage of religious people in the world does not decrease each year, even with the advent of new theories.
Are you sure of this? I know very few people who attend church on Sundays.
Actually, the number of people engaging in religious practices is decreasing. If it weren't for the population explosion going on in certain very religious places - - it would be dropping like a rock.
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley
The number of believere is not proof. religion is "taught" to most, as a child. children usually believe everything their parents tell them. while growing up, we read, learn, and aquire more knowledge of the world around us. athieism is not a religion. it happens gradually over time. we learn more as we get older, then start questioning what we are taught. everything, science, religion, politics, ethics, sports...everything. science - easy. if you cant test it, prove it, and repeat the test, its crap. religion - crap. cant test it and cant prove it. faith = unprovable/untestable + wishfull thinking
Some question religion because it has 0 scientific proof. some accept religion for fear of punishment. questioning or non belief is one of the worst sins.
there would be a larger number of people questioning the validity of religion, if it wasn't for that torturing of their soul for eternity clause.
why would a being create me, give me a mind smart enough to question, leave 0 proof of existence, then send me to hell for eternity, because I was created too intelligent.
there will be a lot of "good" souls being tortured for eternity, because they were created with a thrist for knowledge.
if he loves me and wants me in heaven, give me the scientific proof i ask for. not some brainwashed bible thumper quoting ancient text, or some ambigious "you aren't listening correctly" crap. The people who are listening hate each other.christians hate the catholics, catholics hate the mormons, jews hate the palestinians, muslims hate the jews. which one of you is listening correctly? or maybe there isn't anything to listen to.
Some question religion because it has 0 scientific proof. some accept religion for fear of punishment. questioning or non belief is one of the worst sins.
there would be a larger number of people questioning the validity of religion, if it wasn't for that torturing of their soul for eternity clause.
why would a being create me, give me a mind smart enough to question, leave 0 proof of existence, then send me to hell for eternity, because I was created too intelligent.
there will be a lot of "good" souls being tortured for eternity, because they were created with a thrist for knowledge.
if he loves me and wants me in heaven, give me the scientific proof i ask for. not some brainwashed bible thumper quoting ancient text, or some ambigious "you aren't listening correctly" crap. The people who are listening hate each other.christians hate the catholics, catholics hate the mormons, jews hate the palestinians, muslims hate the jews. which one of you is listening correctly? or maybe there isn't anything to listen to.
Born ok 1st time.
QuoteQuoteQuoteNow we know how the planets formed.
No we don't. There's theories and inferences.
Get with the times. Read up on current findings.
We have now been able to image other solar systems in all stages of development - including the first visual images of planets. You do not even need to go as far as the very stuffy reading of journals and annals. Just pick up Astronomy magazine, the more current edition the better because we are discovering shit at an amazing pace.
3 or 4 years ago the experts were saying we'd be visualizing exo-planets in another decade or 2. Even the experts underestimate the constantly increasing pace of change. We're probably scant years (maybe months) away from hard confirmation of atmospheres around other planets that could support life as we know it.
Imagine the impact to the communal human psyche when we first confirm an Earth like planet. A place with lots of water, similar atmosphere, moderate temperatures, seasons, (and no Starbucks). I hope I get to witness it.
Meanwhile we will still have people insisting WE are God's chosen children, the center of the universe, blah, blah, blah. . . .
I have no problem with science. I just find it amusing that you believe whatever the current issue of Astronomy magazie tells you is the truth. What is true today wasn't true years ago and won't be true a few years from now.
You call theories proof of our creation and existance. I call them theories.
I call my belief in creationism the truth. My proof is that I pray for help and help arrives. You call it cooincidence.
We're not going to convince each other that one way is right over the other. My claim still stands that science is not proof there is no God. The existence of God does not mean science can't explain some things.
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Stay positive and love your life.
QuoteQuoteQuote
Science doesn't explain away God. The percentage of religious people in the world does not decrease each year, even with the advent of new theories.
Are you sure of this? I know very few people who attend church on Sundays.
Actually, the number of people engaging in religious practices is decreasing. If it weren't for the population explosion going on in certain very religious places - - it would be dropping like a rock.
Contrary to what Speakers Corner would have you to believe, religion is not going away. The percentage of believers even in non-population exploding areas has been constant or increasing for decades.
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Stay positive and love your life.
QuoteThe number of believere is not proof. religion is "taught" to most, as a child. children usually believe everything their parents tell them. while growing up, we read, learn, and aquire more knowledge of the world around us. athieism is not a religion. it happens gradually over time. we learn more as we get older, then start questioning what we are taught. everything, science, religion, politics, ethics, sports...everything.
True, people tend to believe what their parents believed. If everyone slowly becomes atheist then who is teaching our kids?
Quotescience - easy. if you cant test it, prove it, and repeat the test, its crap.
Not quite that easy. The issues of SR and quatum mechanics illustrate that nicely.
QuoteSome question religion because it has 0 scientific proof. some accept religion for fear of punishment. questioning or non belief is one of the worst sins.
Says who? I think it's healthy to question, research, and understand my beliefs.
Quotewhy would a being create me, give me a mind smart enough to question, leave 0 proof of existence, then send me to hell for eternity, because I was created too intelligent.
What proof are you seeking? You won't be sent to hell for being too intelligent. There's no sin for being smart or researching the world around us. There's nothing that says science can't exist. The punishment comes from not believing. If you choose not to believe then that's your right as a free-willed person.
Quotethere will be a lot of "good" souls being tortured for eternity, because they were created with a thrist for knowledge.
You're equating a thirst for knowledge with not being a believer. If you want learn everything you can then go for it. I certainly try to. Again, that has nothing to with being a believer.
Quoteif he loves me and wants me in heaven, give me the scientific proof i ask for.
What kind of proof would it take?
QuoteThe people who are listening hate each other.christians hate the catholics, catholics hate the mormons, jews hate the palestinians, muslims hate the jews. which one of you is listening correctly? or maybe there isn't anything to listen to
Some people do crazy ass shit in the name of religion. The key there is that it's people. A person can shoot up a hospital and claim it was because God wanted him to. That doesn't mean it was God's will. Not all Christians hate Catholics. Not all muslims hate Jews. The fanatics carrying out murderous acts in the name of religion hate each other.
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Stay positive and love your life.
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Contrary to what Speakers Corner would have you to believe, religion is not going away. The percentage of believers even in non-population exploding areas has been constant or increasing for decades.
Says you, apparently. Still waiting on something more definitive.
50 years ago, Kennedy was suspect for being a Catholic in a Protestant world. More recently, we've had viable Jewish and Mormon candidates, and a winner with a name that is suspiciously ethnic.
Suggest religion is getting increasingly unimportant to society. Just a matter of time before the openly non religion people start coming along. In the old days, they'd have to go to church and fake faith.
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I have no problem with science. I just find it amusing that you believe whatever the current issue of Astronomy magazie tells you is the truth. What is true today wasn't true years ago and won't be true a few years from now.
Each month's magazine is not like Moses coming down with tablets. Who are these people you claim believe whatever it says?
billvon 3,073
>I call my belief in creationism the truth.
You can call it whatever you like. It does not make it any more valid or truthful.
We have created a system to evaluate the validity of a theory. It's called science, and involves creation of a hypothesis followed by various tests of that hypothesis. If the theory withstands those tests, it is considered valid. If it fails those tests, it is considered invalid. It is the best method we have to determine how the universe really works.
Creationism fails those tests, every time.
> My proof is that I pray for help and help arrives.
David Berkowitz believed that his neighbor's dog was possessed by a demon, and that the demon communicated with him. He answered Berkowitz's questions when he asked them; that was proof enough for him that there was a higher power at work. He followed those instructions and killed six people.
I don't think that his claim that he asked questions and they were answered lends any amount of truth to his claim.
You can call it whatever you like. It does not make it any more valid or truthful.
We have created a system to evaluate the validity of a theory. It's called science, and involves creation of a hypothesis followed by various tests of that hypothesis. If the theory withstands those tests, it is considered valid. If it fails those tests, it is considered invalid. It is the best method we have to determine how the universe really works.
Creationism fails those tests, every time.
> My proof is that I pray for help and help arrives.
David Berkowitz believed that his neighbor's dog was possessed by a demon, and that the demon communicated with him. He answered Berkowitz's questions when he asked them; that was proof enough for him that there was a higher power at work. He followed those instructions and killed six people.
I don't think that his claim that he asked questions and they were answered lends any amount of truth to his claim.
maadmax 0
Good example of: Preconceived conclusions + scientific theory + faith ==== FACT...
Would you explain your assertion?
Where specifically is there indication of "preconceived conclusion" in what Bill wrote?
Quote
Preconceived conclusion - the world and everything in it formed from a spontaneous eruption of matter, energy, and fortuitous chance occurrences.
Scientific theory- primary, secondary, tertiary
protein structures that compose the functional and electrical components of the flagella.
Faith- a belief in things hoped for.
(incorrect) Fact - the bacterial flagella formed totally independent of any preconceived plan for the universe.
... and aren't prophyrin rings just the coolest things. Who would ever think they could just occur by fortunate chance interactions?
...and not to be nosey, what is your IQ? ( I know it must be pretty high)
jakee 1,563
QuotePreconceived conclusion - the world and everything in it formed from a spontaneous eruption of matter, energy, and fortuitous chance occurrences.
Scientific theory- primary, secondary, tertiary
protein structures that compose the functional and electrical components of the flagella.
Faith- a belief in things hoped for.
(incorrect) Fact - the bacterial flagella formed totally independent of any preconceived plan for the universe.
You just love to forge ahead into the brave new world of non sequiturs, don't you?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
maadmax 0
> My proof is that I pray for help and help arrives.
--David Berkowitz believed that his neighbor's dog was possessed by a demon, and that the demon communicated with him. He answered Berkowitz's questions when he asked them; that was proof enough for him that there was a higher power at work. He followed those instructions and killed six people.
--I don't think that his claim that he asked questions and they were answered lends any amount of truth to his claim.
--David Berkowitz believed that his neighbor's dog was possessed by a demon, and that the demon communicated with him. He answered Berkowitz's questions when he asked them; that was proof enough for him that there was a higher power at work. He followed those instructions and killed six people.
--I don't think that his claim that he asked questions and they were answered lends any amount of truth to his claim.
The proof , as always, is in the pudding. David Berkowitz acted on his false beliefs and committed horrible crimes. He is now in jail for life. My bet is that FallingOsh is leading a very productive, fulfilled, complete life since his belief system is based on a true interpretation of reality and what makes it work.
...
As opposed to preconceived religious views + provably incorrect biblical accounts + faith = FACT. I'll go with science, thanks.
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