wmw999 2,452 #126 January 25, 2009 So as long as 7% of the information is good, it's OK that we're spending 93% of our follow-up time chasing and confirming crap? Bullshit. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 425 #127 January 25, 2009 QuoteQuoteNerdly, you sound like smart kid, but you have a lot to learn about this vicious enemy. What specific information do you have that wasn't covered? What is the extent of your background in this field? I guess you don't get it. I don't care what was covered. I don't care what some pin-headed "expert" says about the use of torture. Ask the guys that turn the screws (thumb screws, that is). They will tell you that well placed discomfort works quite well. If it didn't work, they would stop doing it. After all, the motive isn't to torture. The motive is to get the shitpiles to talk. Torture just helps it happen. To answer your question, 7 years.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #128 January 25, 2009 7 years doing what? And why wouldn't you trust what experts in the field of interrogation say? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #129 January 25, 2009 QuoteSo the argument again comes to defining harsh treatment. Is torture limited to ropes and broomsticks or does it extend to lound music and sleep deprivation? All of which, as I understand it, as well as temperature extremes and (gasp!) waterboarding, have been used in SERE training for American troops. Jeanne, am I correct in this, or was I given bad info?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 425 #130 January 25, 2009 Quote So as long as 7% of the information is good, it's OK that we're spending 93% of our follow-up time chasing and confirming crap? Bullshit. Wendy W. Yes. We chase and confirm everything they tell us, regardless of how we get the information. Not torturing won't change that. These shit bags lie to us whether we torture them or not. Do you really believe that they will tell us the truth if we are nice to them? C'mon. 7% isn't much, but it's better than 0%. Fact: many American lives have been saved with information obtained through torture. That's a good enough reason for me. Now hand me the electrodes and flip the switch.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #131 January 25, 2009 We should listen to those with actual field experience in interrogation. And then use the most effective techniques for obtaining information. Your hatred for the enemy is not a substitute for actual, hard facts. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 425 #132 January 25, 2009 Quote7 years doing what? And why wouldn't you trust what experts in the field of interrogation say? I am not at liberty to divulge the details of my service. And most of the experts you speak of have never seen the inside of an interrogation room. No technique is perfect, but torture does work and should continue until we find something better.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 425 #133 January 25, 2009 QuoteWe should listen to those with actual field experience in interrogation. And then use the most effective techniques for obtaining information. Your hatred for the enemy is not a substitute for actual, hard facts. I do not hate the enemy. I am a Christian. My faith teaches me to love everyone, including my enemy. I do not have to hate my enemy to destroy him. Careful where you get your facts. Experts seldom are.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,452 #134 January 25, 2009 So in other words we should just trust you because you say so. A Brazilian author named Elio Gaspari wrote a pretty good book called A Ditadura Escancarada about the use of torture in Brazil in the late 60's and early 70's. His research (much of it anecdotal, but the number of people who are willing to admit they engaged in torture wasn't huge) indicated that by and large, the tortured will say anything to make the pain stop. And the people doing the torturing (generally low-level) are being pushed to get the most possible information. So lots and lots of bad information was processed, and time spent on it. I still submit that unless one has unlimited resources (which we don't have), spending 93% of your time on crap because of the methods you chose is bullshit. Remember that during WW2 one of the goals of the Allied POWs was to get the Germans to spend as much time as possible on wild-goose chases. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #135 January 25, 2009 QuoteIf it didn't work, they would stop doing it. After all, the motive isn't to torture. Have you ever actually met someone who works in that world???? Let me assure you.. there are those out there that torture other human beings just for the sheer pleasure it brings them. They could really care less what information they get is. Many people who are subjected to some pretty heinous actions..... will tell the "interrogater" what every they want to hear... to make the pain stop. Those who are trained to resist can and do avoid telling what they want to hold back.. but no matter HOW much you are trained you are going to say something... anything to make it stop. The tactics being used by AQ are to throw out so much shit as to make anything they are saying irrelevant. They will be claiming they are part of any operation that has ever killed anyone and dream up all kinds of grandiose schemes. Its all part of a desire ot confuse and hide anything real they may be doing. It also helps them get to a goal of dieing as a martyr. Edited to add Mike it depends on what the individual is doing... Someone driving a very "sensative" asset gets different training that the run of the mill "student" does not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #136 January 25, 2009 Quote I am not at liberty to divulge the details of my service.. Oh, certainly not. Neither am I. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #137 January 25, 2009 Truthfully.... I am not even sure what is fair game and what is not. That does give me pause.. even 30 years later. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
434 2 #138 January 25, 2009 Sami al-Hajj had been working as a cameraman for Al Jazeera when he was arrested on the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan in 2001. Since then he has spent six years in the US military prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Al-Hajj had been sent to the area to cover the US war against the Taliban and held a legitimate work visa. He was arrested after suspicions that he had links with al-Qaeda when his name and passport number came up on a list from Pakistan intelligence. The passport number that the Pakistanis had was for an old document that al-Hajj had previously reported as having been lost in Sudan two years earlier. He was kept prisoner in Afghanistan and Pakistan for five months before being handed over to US forces and taken to Guantanamo Bay as an "enemy combatant". For the past seven years he has been prisoner 345. He is the only journalist to be detained at Guantanamo Bay without being charged. http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2008/05/200861505753353325.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #139 January 25, 2009 Quote Remember that during WW2 one of the goals of the Allied POWs was to get the Germans to spend as much time as possible on wild-goose chases. Wendy W. We have enough experience to filter through the dis-intelligence. That doesn't mean that we don't try to get information from them. Bottom line is that most people will not break without some kind of duress.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #140 January 25, 2009 QuoteSami al-Hajj had been working as a cameraman for Al Jazeera when he was arrested on the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan in 2001. Since then he has spent six years in the US military prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Al-Hajj had been sent to the area to cover the US war against the Taliban and held a legitimate work visa. He was arrested after suspicions that he had links with al-Qaeda when his name and passport number came up on a list from Pakistan intelligence. The passport number that the Pakistanis had was for an old document that al-Hajj had previously reported as having been lost in Sudan two years earlier. He was kept prisoner in Afghanistan and Pakistan for five months before being handed over to US forces and taken to Guantanamo Bay as an "enemy combatant". For the past seven years he has been prisoner 345. He is the only journalist to be detained at Guantanamo Bay without being charged. http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2008/05/200861505753353325.html Seems like we've done a damn good job of creating another enemy there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n23x 0 #141 January 25, 2009 QuoteI do not hate the enemy. I am a Christian. My faith teaches me to love everyone, including my enemy. I do not have to hate my enemy to destroy him. It's been a while since I've sat through a church service, but my times have changed! QuoteWhen they quit talkin', kill 'em - right in front of their piece of shit brothers - with a bacon wrapped dagger (shaped like a cross, of course). Then shove a big hunk o' ham down their throats and bury 'em facing west with a grave full of Jack Daniels and porno vids. Keep it classy, Chuck. .jim"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #142 January 26, 2009 QuoteQuote Quote However, it’s just not particularly relevant to my response in the context of [chuckakers] assertion implying conventional military methods using overwhelming force and use of torture are necessary methods to defeat insurgents or terrorists, to which I provided evidence that was wrong (at least 93% of the time). I didn't imply that our military use overwhelming force or torture. I said they should do whatever is necessary. If that includes torture, so be it. And while torture may only work 7% of the time, it has proven to save American lives. Given the brutal nature of the enemy, I don't care what we do to them, as long as it makes them talk. (1) The 7% of the time refers to military action *not* to torture. (2) When has torture *ever* saved a single life? Ever? Just one instance ... On the contrary, use of torture puts American lives at risk. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nerdgirl 0 #143 January 26, 2009 Quote Bottom line is that most people will not break without some kind of duress. On what do you base that assertion? How would you substantiate it? Or put otherwise, how did you come to that conclusion with regard to interrogation? On the contrary, go see what the Marine Corps Interrogator Translator Teams asserts, after more than 7 *decades* of experience (it's the 2nd to last quote here. (Btw Who said "He's a Marine. 'Nuff said"? /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nerdgirl 0 #144 January 26, 2009 QuoteAnd most of the experts you speak of have never seen the inside of an interrogation room. No technique is perfect, but torture does work and should continue until we find something better. Are you then asserting that the Marine Interogators I cited are lying or don't know about what they're speaking? /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jerryzflies 0 #145 January 26, 2009 Don't confuse the right wingers with facts, Nerdgirl. It does no good and just makes them grouchy.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites idrankwhat 0 #146 January 26, 2009 Quote Quote *** WE ARE NOT willing to do what is UNNECESSARY (and COUNTERPRODUCTIVE) to win the war!!! Water boarding is what made Khalid Sheikh Mohammed spill his guts. I can't say for sure it was necessary, but it was sure as hell productive. He conducted more than 300 interrogations and supervised more than a thousand and was awarded a Bronze Star for his achievements in Iraq. Alexander's nonviolent interrogation methods led Special Forces to Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, the head of Al-Qaeda in Iraq. His new book is titled "How to Break a Terrorist: The US Interrogators Who Used Brains, Not Brutality, to Take Down the Deadliest Man in Iraq." "It's extremely ineffective, and it's counterproductive to what we're trying to accomplish," he told reporters. "When we torture somebody, it hardens their resolve," Alexander explained. "The information that you get is unreliable ... And even if you do get reliable information, you're able to stop a terrorist attack, Al-Qaeda's then going to use the fact that we torture people to recruit new members." Alexander says torture techniques used in Iraq consistently failed to produce actionable intelligence and that methods outlined in the US Army Field Manual, which rest on confidence building, consistently worked and gave the interrogators access to critical information. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nerdgirl 0 #147 January 26, 2009 Thank you very much for what I'm reading as intended as a supportive and complimentary reply. I don't really see this as a 'right-wing'/'left-wing' thing. There are lots of conservatives, many of whom I've cited, who are opposed to torture. There are also folks who will criticize any action of the US, and folks who criticize any criticism of US policy. And there are folks on the left who don't deal well with facts, e.g., the "Frankenfood" issue and opposition to vaccines. Strongly held beliefs are hard to shake regardless of facts to the contrary. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nerdgirl 0 #148 January 26, 2009 Quote... as I understand it, as well as temperature extremes and (gasp!) waterboarding, have been used in SERE training for American troops. Jeanne, am I correct in this, or was I given bad info? One of the resident SERE experts around here can fill in the history more fully and correct any innacuracies. The SERE training methods were largely derived from tactics used or believed used by North Koreans and Soviets. The training manual was intended as training doctrine to enable US soldiers, airman, sailors, and Marines to develop skills to resist torture by our enemies ... it was *not* intended as an instruction manual for what we should do. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #149 January 26, 2009 Lets not forget the Chinese and the North Vietnamese... they taught us a lot Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Capt.Slog 0 #150 January 26, 2009 Quote Thank you very much for what I'm reading as intended as a supportive and complimentary reply. I don't really see this as a 'right-wing'/'left-wing' thing. There are lots of conservatives, many of whom I've cited, who are opposed to torture. There are also folks who will criticize any action of the US, and folks who criticize any criticism of US policy. And there are folks on the left who don't deal well with facts, e.g., the "Frankenfood" issue and opposition to vaccines. Strongly held beliefs are hard to shake regardless of facts to the contrary. VR/Marg Your statement, as always, is accurate in the wider community, but in THIS forum the advocates of torture have been pretty exclusively those whose posting history shows a very definite tilt to the right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next Page 6 of 8 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
nerdgirl 0 #143 January 26, 2009 Quote Bottom line is that most people will not break without some kind of duress. On what do you base that assertion? How would you substantiate it? Or put otherwise, how did you come to that conclusion with regard to interrogation? On the contrary, go see what the Marine Corps Interrogator Translator Teams asserts, after more than 7 *decades* of experience (it's the 2nd to last quote here. (Btw Who said "He's a Marine. 'Nuff said"? /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #144 January 26, 2009 QuoteAnd most of the experts you speak of have never seen the inside of an interrogation room. No technique is perfect, but torture does work and should continue until we find something better. Are you then asserting that the Marine Interogators I cited are lying or don't know about what they're speaking? /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #145 January 26, 2009 Don't confuse the right wingers with facts, Nerdgirl. It does no good and just makes them grouchy.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #146 January 26, 2009 Quote Quote *** WE ARE NOT willing to do what is UNNECESSARY (and COUNTERPRODUCTIVE) to win the war!!! Water boarding is what made Khalid Sheikh Mohammed spill his guts. I can't say for sure it was necessary, but it was sure as hell productive. He conducted more than 300 interrogations and supervised more than a thousand and was awarded a Bronze Star for his achievements in Iraq. Alexander's nonviolent interrogation methods led Special Forces to Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, the head of Al-Qaeda in Iraq. His new book is titled "How to Break a Terrorist: The US Interrogators Who Used Brains, Not Brutality, to Take Down the Deadliest Man in Iraq." "It's extremely ineffective, and it's counterproductive to what we're trying to accomplish," he told reporters. "When we torture somebody, it hardens their resolve," Alexander explained. "The information that you get is unreliable ... And even if you do get reliable information, you're able to stop a terrorist attack, Al-Qaeda's then going to use the fact that we torture people to recruit new members." Alexander says torture techniques used in Iraq consistently failed to produce actionable intelligence and that methods outlined in the US Army Field Manual, which rest on confidence building, consistently worked and gave the interrogators access to critical information. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #147 January 26, 2009 Thank you very much for what I'm reading as intended as a supportive and complimentary reply. I don't really see this as a 'right-wing'/'left-wing' thing. There are lots of conservatives, many of whom I've cited, who are opposed to torture. There are also folks who will criticize any action of the US, and folks who criticize any criticism of US policy. And there are folks on the left who don't deal well with facts, e.g., the "Frankenfood" issue and opposition to vaccines. Strongly held beliefs are hard to shake regardless of facts to the contrary. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #148 January 26, 2009 Quote... as I understand it, as well as temperature extremes and (gasp!) waterboarding, have been used in SERE training for American troops. Jeanne, am I correct in this, or was I given bad info? One of the resident SERE experts around here can fill in the history more fully and correct any innacuracies. The SERE training methods were largely derived from tactics used or believed used by North Koreans and Soviets. The training manual was intended as training doctrine to enable US soldiers, airman, sailors, and Marines to develop skills to resist torture by our enemies ... it was *not* intended as an instruction manual for what we should do. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #149 January 26, 2009 Lets not forget the Chinese and the North Vietnamese... they taught us a lot Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #150 January 26, 2009 Quote Thank you very much for what I'm reading as intended as a supportive and complimentary reply. I don't really see this as a 'right-wing'/'left-wing' thing. There are lots of conservatives, many of whom I've cited, who are opposed to torture. There are also folks who will criticize any action of the US, and folks who criticize any criticism of US policy. And there are folks on the left who don't deal well with facts, e.g., the "Frankenfood" issue and opposition to vaccines. Strongly held beliefs are hard to shake regardless of facts to the contrary. VR/Marg Your statement, as always, is accurate in the wider community, but in THIS forum the advocates of torture have been pretty exclusively those whose posting history shows a very definite tilt to the right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
