AR build recommendations?

[mnealtx 0]

As mentioned in Nina's thread, I'm looking to build an AR. I'm looking for something suitable for mid-range plinking/target/varmint use (IOW, I'm not looking for a 1000 yard benchrest rifle).

My thoughts/wants:

Piston upper (must have)
16-18" barrel, recessed target crown.
NP3 coated internals similar to Patriot Arms CROS system would be nice.
Flat top with BUIS (ability to co-index with an EOTech holosight preferred).
Collapsible stock.
I don't care for the huge quad-rail handguards
I don't see a current need for bipod/light, but I wouldn't mind the ability to put a 3 piece sling (a la "Ching sling") on it.

Suggestions? Ideas? Parts lists?

Thanks!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

I have a standard AR, so I have no experience/opinion on the piston upper.

I'm fond of Bushmaster personally. They have a shorter barrel that puts the gas port well out on the barrel (not the same spot as the 11.5 barrel) and that helps slow the bolt speed down a good bit. The real close gas port/high bolt speed hurts reliability some.

The "Grip-Pod" is really nice.
The ability to put a light on is very nice too.

The rails are nice to have, some are fairly low profile and can be covered. You don't have to go with the full Quad setup, there are ones that are just upper and lower, or you can put sections on normal handguards.

The fancy three point slings are nice, but I just get by with a very long sling rigged the way the Special Forces used to (A friend has a son who's a real Green Beret and he showed me how to rig it).

Use good quality parts. I tried to get by cheap the first time and it wasn't worth the hassle.
All of this is just my thoughts. Use or don't.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[rushmc 23]

For more than you can learn in a week

You may want to really look over the "pistion" threads at this site

So, you got BRD?

ar15.com

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mnealtx 0]

Joe - thanks for the recommendations - I'll look into that. Definitely not going with the 'bargain barrel' components.

Marc - can't get to ar15.com from over here - probably some sort of network screening issue.

What's BRD?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

As mentioned in Nina's thread, I'm looking to build an AR. I'm looking for something suitable for mid-range plinking/target/varmint use (IOW, I'm not looking for a 1000 yard benchrest rifle). Suggestions? Ideas?

What do you consider to be "mid range"? 600 yards?

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Joe - thanks for the recommendations - I'll look into that. Definitely not going with the 'bargain barrel' components.

Marc - can't get to ar15.com from over here - probably some sort of network screening issue.

What's BRD?

Black Rifle Disease

I got it!!

There is a lot of discussion around the piston issue on the AR platform. I do not have an opinion one way or the other as I am still leaning but, there are supporters and detractors to that conversion

I have an Armalite flat top with a 20" barrel. Crome barrel and it is rock solid. Very accurate

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

As mentioned in Nina's thread, I'm looking to build an AR. I'm looking for something suitable for mid-range plinking/target/varmint use (IOW, I'm not looking for a 1000 yard benchrest rifle). Suggestions? Ideas?

What do you consider to be "mid range"? 600 yards?

That seems reasonable, yes.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[n23x 0]

Fun Thread! (I've been looking at various uppers for a while, it'll be fun to hear some opinions)

Mike, what's your reasoning for the piston upper?

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[AggieDave 6]

Hey, our favorite gun shop said call them with a CC# and they'll order a lower for you and hold it for your triumphant return.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Fun Thread! (I've been looking at various uppers for a while, it'll be fun to hear some opinions)

Mike, what's your reasoning for the piston upper?

.jim

Have you looked at the threads about piston conversions on the ar15.com web site?

I have read a bunch of them and i still dont know what to think about that conversion

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[n23x 0]

I've read quite a few about the conversions as well, and I suppose I can see positives to both sides.

I have only shot/broken down DI, so I guess I can't really comment other than what I've read, and was curious to hear if people played with them really liked them that much more.

Cleaner, cooler?, improved reliability, and adjustability? Worth the additional cost?

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[rushmc 23]

Quote

I've read quite a few about the conversions as well, and I suppose I can see positives to both sides.

I have only shot/broken down DI, so I guess I can't really comment other than what I've read, and was curious to hear if people played with them really liked them that much more.

Cleaner, cooler?, improved reliability, and adjustability? Worth the additional cost?

.jim

Same things I have wondered. I have to think if it was all that much better the military would have adapted it by now (I know it can take a while)

They work so well now I wounder why change unless you just want something a little different

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[AggieDave 6]

You know some of the "tactical trainer" types I've talked to over the past couple of years have said that the "hobby shop" guns (piston conversion) fail miserably when taken through the paces. They're talking about shooting courses where around 2000rds are put down range over the course of a couple of days.

Others have said they have experienced no problems. Some have said that the factory piston setups (H&K/Sig) have functioned with no problems, even when abused.

Assuming that you're not going to switch careers and get into PSD in Iraq, then it probably won't be that big of a deal.

Did you get a chance to look at the conversion being sold by Bushmaster? I've heard some good things about that conversion, although I haven't played with one myself. Hell, you could buy a complete upper from Bushmaster with the piston system already installed.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Ron 10]

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Marc - can't get to ar15.com from over here - probably some sort of network screening issue.

Try http://www.jobrelatedstuff.com/

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Cleaner, cooler?, improved reliability , and adjustability? Worth the additional cost?

They work better. They are not as picky when they are a little dirty as a gas tube.

Many military units ARE using them (HK 416). I know guys that took their own piston uppers overseas.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JohnRich 4]

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What do you consider to be "mid range"? 600 yards?

That seems reasonable, yes.

I wouldn't try and go that distance with anything less than a full-length 20" barrel.

And I'd get a one-in-7 twist rate in the rifling, so you can shoot and stabilize the heavier bullets for that distance. The 55-grain bullets ain't going to work well at 600 yards - they don't have enough mass to retain their velocity well that far. Most shooters go to .223 bullet weights of 69 grains or more.

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

As mentioned in Nina's thread, I'm looking to build an AR. I'm looking for something suitable for mid-range plinking/target/varmint use (IOW, I'm not looking for a 1000 yard benchrest rifle).

My thoughts/wants:

Piston upper (must have)
16-18" barrel, recessed target crown.
NP3 coated internals similar to Patriot Arms CROS system would be nice.
Flat top with BUIS (ability to co-index with an EOTech holosight preferred).
Collapsible stock.
I don't care for the huge quad-rail handguards
I don't see a current need for bipod/light, but I wouldn't mind the ability to put a 3 piece sling (a la "Ching sling") on it.

Suggestions? Ideas? Parts lists?

Thanks!

Nice wish list. Now lets address the reality here and THEN you can set out on looking for your ideal weapon components. First and fore most, how much are you willing to spend? Once you have a price range/budget, then you can realistically go part shopping.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mnealtx 0]

Still can't get to AR15.com... comes up with a network failure notice or connection refused.

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n23x: Mike, what's your reasoning for the piston upper?

Well, I've never been fond of the 'shit where it eats' operation. From my understanding, the piston uppers run cooler and cleaner.

Quote

AggieDave: Hey, our favorite gun shop said call them with a CC# and they'll order a lower for you and hold it for your triumphant return.

Sweet!!! Thanks for doing the legwork for me, Dave!

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AggieDave, Ron: re; piston pros/cons

I've heard good and bad about them, but the positives still seem to outweigh the negatives. I'd prefer a piston upper, but I could be swayed, I suppose - I'm sure I wouldn't be firing enough at any one time that it would be a worry about failure.

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JohnRich: I wouldn't try and go that distance with anything less than a full-length 20" barrel.

And I'd get a one-in-7 twist rate in the rifling, so you can shoot and stabilize the heavier bullets for that distance. The 55-grain bullets ain't going to work well at 600 yards - they don't have enough mass to retain their velocity well that far. Most shooters go to .223 bullet weights of 69 grains or more.

I'm planning on plinking/varmint use, so I doubt I'd be shooting that far - it just seemed like a reasonable 'outer limit', so to speak. What would you recommend for shorter range plinking/light target/varmint?

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LouDiamond: First and fore most, how much are you willing to spend? Once you have a price range/budget, then you can realistically go part shopping.

I *could* just buy an already-built rifle outright, but I'd sort of like to 'roll my own' - the satisfaction of doing it myself, if that makes sense. I'm not going to use bargain-barrel parts, but I wouldn't spend $800 for a cryogenically treated match barrel, either (hypothetical). With that said, *would* it be cheaper for me to just buy something "off the shelf"?

I don't suppose the "standard" AR magwell would support .308 length rounds for a 'switch top' rifle, would it?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

I *could* just buy an already-built rifle outright, but I'd sort of like to 'roll my own' - the satisfaction of doing it myself, if that makes sense. I'm not going to use bargain-barrel parts, but I wouldn't spend $800 for a cryogenically treated match barrel, either (hypothetical). With that said, *would* it be cheaper for me to just buy something "off the shelf"?

I don't suppose the "standard" AR magwell would support .308 length rounds for a 'switch top' rifle, would it?

Again, what's your budget or how much are you willing to spend? I built the gun posted above from scratch so I understand where you are coming from. However, if you have champagne taste on a beer budget, it won't realistically help you in determining what pieces and parts you should be looking at for your build.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mnealtx 0]

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However, if you have champagne taste on a beer budget, it won't realistically help you in determining what pieces and parts you should be looking at for your build.

I can afford the champagne, but I prefer good beer.

To me, it looks like going over about $1500 (excluding mags) is getting into the range of diminishing returns, unless certain parts are especially recommended. Would you agree? If not, why not?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[LouDiamond 1]

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To me, it looks like going over about $1500 (excluding mags) is getting into the range of diminishing returns, unless certain parts are especially recommended. Would you agree? If not, why not?

Well since you said you want a piston upper, thats gonna drive it up right off the bat. Figure any where from say $1,200 to 1,500+ for a piston upper depending on who makes it. Start adding other quality parts and it'll easily surpass your $1500.00 diminishing returns mark. If $1500 is your max I would recommend you look at buying a prebuilt one thats as close to the way you want it set up and then spend the rest on any of the things you want to add/change.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[rwieder 0]

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Suggestions? Ideas? Parts lists?

I have a suggestion, do all of this without letting the entire world know your intentions. Build the thing covertly. There"s some things a man just has to keep to himself.

Heres one URL that may be of help to you:

http://www.fulton-armory.com/Kaboom.htm

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[steve1 5]

It's amazing all the modifications you can do these days to that kind of rifle.

John Rich's advice seems right on. The rate of twist is importanat.

I never liked too short of a barrel. Some times you lose a lot in velocity by taking inches off a barrel....A short barrel may be handier....A longer barrel would work better for long range work. 600 yards is a very long shot. I doubt if a 16 inch barrel would be worth much at that range.

I'd look hard at what kind of muzzle veloscity you get out of a shorter barrel compared to a longer one. Sometimes a couple inches can make a big difference.

I'm also wondering about muzzle flash....With too short of a barrel you may have unburned powder. I'd think that would be the case on a 16 inch barrel. Maybe I am wrong, but that would be a consideration to think about.

You could load your own ammo with a faster burning powder, and solve muzzle flash problems. There may be some faster burning ammo for short barrels on the market too.

It's sure a lot easier to just buy stock ammo for that kind of rifle, rather than reload. Reloads may not work too well in an automatic either. You have to resize carefully for an auto.

I'd listen to Lou Diamond and John. They probably have forgot more about automatic weapons than I will ever know. It's been years since I've even fired that kind of weapon...

[rwieder 0]

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I'm also wondering about muzzle flash....With too short of a barrel you may have unburned powder.

Flash Hider?

[steve1 5]

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I'm also wondering about muzzle flash....With too short of a barrel you may have unburned powder.

Flash Hider?

..............................................................
Both the M-16 and AR-15 have flash suppressors. They may help a little with muzzle flash, but if you have a real short barrel, standard 223 ammo will produce a huge flash because of unburned powder. The powder burns as the bullet travels down the barrel. All the powder should be burned up by the time the bullet leaves the barrel. There's no flash suppressor tht will work on too short of a barrel or the wrong ammo.

Perhaps a 16 inch barrel is too short for standard M-16 ammo. I don't know though. It might shoot okay. I'll bet Lou Diamond knows.

Another example was something really stupid, that I did once, when I was a kid.

I started reloading when I was 12 or 13. My Dad let me do about whatever, I wanted as long as I didn't blow the house up.

A friend and I decided we'd load up some coyote ammo for my trusty 30/06. This was a poor varmit rifle, but it was the only bigger gun I had.

Stupid us...we didn't even have a loading manual. This friend of mine watched a guy load a box of shells once, so he was the brains behind this fiasco.

We bought some 110 grain bullets and a can of 4831 powder. We loaded up a charge that should have been behind a 180 grain bullet.

So, then we drove out in the back 40 to try them out.

Anyone who reloads would know this was way to slow of a burning powder for that bullet. And yes, we had too much powder behind that little bullet.

It was getting a little dark when I finally touched one off. "Holy Christ" There was about three feet of flame that came out of the barrel, and a boom that scared both of us. When I finally got my vision back I noticed little specks of powder, all over the snow.

This is an extreme example of what not to do, but it shows what can happen if all the powder does not burn before the bullet leaves the barrel....