mnealtx 0 #76 February 19, 2009 QuoteIn Canada I made some $60-65K a year and I paid $12-$18K a year in income tax, depending on the year and the deductions (retirement savings etc). I paid NOTHING for health care. and I got 'good' health care. Um, no. That 12-18k included paying for your medical - you paid for it. QuoteSo I am living proof that the universal healthcare is a better value. Which, of course, is why the architect of the system is now saying private insurance is needed.... Clicky Quote Back in the 1960s, Castonguay chaired a Canadian government committee studying health reform and recommended that his home province of Quebec — then the largest and most affluent in the country — adopt government-administered health care, covering all citizens through tax levies. The government followed his advice, leading to his modern-day moniker: "the father of Quebec medicare." Even this title seems modest; Castonguay's work triggered a domino effect across the country, until eventually his ideas were implemented from coast to coast. Four decades later, as the chairman of a government committee reviewing Quebec health care this year, Castonguay concluded that the system is in "crisis." "We thought we could resolve the system's problems by rationing services or injecting massive amounts of new money into it," says Castonguay. But now he prescribes a radical overhaul: "We are proposing to give a greater role to the private sector so that people can exercise freedom of choice." Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #77 February 19, 2009 Quote Quote You may want to do some research. There is a growing history of people dying waiting on medical care that is rationed in socialized medicine countries such as Canada and the UK. What ever you folks in the USA do towards improving your healthcare system, DO NOT ... I repeat ... DO NOT LOOK TO CANADA on how to run a successful public healthcare system. tkhayes says you're wrong, though!!! Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #78 February 19, 2009 Quote Quote I really do have to ask Mike.. who is your health care provider??? Are you sure you are actually going to get what you have paid for if you need to use it??? At the present, CIGNA. Before that, I've used BC/BS and ...crap, can't remember the other one. Never had a problem with any of them, and that includes a couple of ER visits and a couple surgeries. Main reason I am asking is I have recently had United Healthcare... and befor that Aetna.... both sucked dog balls. I really dont mind paying out since the employers at least give you a group plan.. but FUCK.. when you have a legit claim ( am not a fucking hypocondriac) I do expect them to actually pay... hell I even had the Doc call United.. to make SURE they covered the MRI.... and they said yes... but AFTER the MRI for my torn shoulder.. the fucklers would not pay... saying it was a pre existing condition... for a completely new injury.. WTF... there are some insurance people that need to be gelded. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #79 February 19, 2009 Quote Quote Quote I really do have to ask Mike.. who is your health care provider??? Are you sure you are actually going to get what you have paid for if you need to use it??? At the present, CIGNA. Before that, I've used BC/BS and ...crap, can't remember the other one. Never had a problem with any of them, and that includes a couple of ER visits and a couple surgeries. Main reason I am asking is I have recently had United Healthcare... and befor that Aetna.... both sucked dog balls. I really dont mind paying out since the employers at least give you a group plan.. but FUCK.. when you have a legit claim ( am not a fucking hypocondriac) I do expect them to actually pay... hell I even had the Doc call United.. to make SURE they covered the MRI.... and they said yes... but AFTER the MRI for my torn shoulder.. the fucklers would not pay... saying it was a pre existing condition... for a completely new injury.. WTF... there are some insurance people that need to be gelded. THAT was the other one... UHC. Hopefully you're pursuing options against the insurance company...if you've got the proof that it wasn't a pre-x condition from your doctor, it should be a slam-dunk, right? And yes, I agree that there's too much overhead in the insurance companies.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #80 February 19, 2009 other than universal healthcare and the govt paying for it, it would probably also work to 'force' everyone to buy insurance. The cost, en masse would go down. Massachusetts is already doing it as well as others. you would also have to pass laws that do not allow companies to deny you coverage or up your rates because of preexisting conditions or because of what you do for a living. the theory being that more people pouring into it will lower the overall cost. Whether you pay for it using tax dollars or pay for it through private insurers might work. But I think the insurers have too much overhead. Another fallacy about the govt run healthcare is that it is inefficient. It is not actually. Medicare/Medicaid spends far less in administrative costs that private sector. Medicare is not there to DENY you coverage, but the goal of the private sector IS to deny you coverage. - that's how they make money. You either have a government that runs it or a corporation that runs it. The advantages of government run are obvious. EVERYONE gets coverage and no one is denied. The disadvantage is tax increases, but not huge, and a general lack of equipment. i.e. it takes legislation to build a hospital or buy an MRI machine. In canada, la lot of cities only have one MRI and the govt does not want to pay for new equipment. But you are never denied coverage or access to health care. The advantages of the private system are LOTS of MRI machines and equipment, LOTS of hospitals and easy access to it. The disadvantages are insurance companies that do not want to cover you - charge horrendous rates, analyze every bit of your life with no goal except to raise your rates and then even when you DO GET THE INSURANCE AND YOU ARE PAYING FOR IT - they deny every claim and argue with you about it, drowning you in paperwork and notices that no normal human being can understand. (This is my story) SO there is probably a middle ground system. Public and private hospitals. basic and emergency care for everyone. private treatments and insurance companies for supplemental coverage if you want it. I paid for an MRI myself once because my insurance company denied it. In Canada, I cannot do that, but here I can. It pisses me off to no end that I would have to do that when I am paying $525/month for a plan, but I have no choice. Canada could learn some lessons from the USA by allowing privatization of a lot of services, like Xrays, blood work, MRI's, Physical therapy, etc. People will pay rather than wait 6 months. The USA could learn a lot of lessons from Canada, like how to take care of your own and stop worrying about the few that 'milk the system' - 'cause in fact - those numbers and the overall cost are pretty friggin' small compared to the total cost. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #81 February 19, 2009 QuoteI know plenty of 'average' people who can afford health insurance. so do I. And I work for and have employed at Skydive City, DOZENS OF PEOPLE who cannot possibly afford even a most basic plan, as event hose plans cost $200-$300/month nowadays. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #82 February 19, 2009 I never said Canada was perfect. Actually, on the same issue, i even noted in other threads than Canada only ranks slightly above the USA. But I also note that 15 out of the top 20 BEST HEALTH CARE SYSTEMS IN THE WORLD, are in countries that offer universal health care to all of their people. SO as in my post just above, Canada can learn from the USA. The USA can certainly learn from Canada and other countries. Those that say it cannot be done are getting in the way of those countries that are already doing it. At least I have the perspective of living in two countries and seeing and living BOTH systems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #83 February 19, 2009 Quoteother than universal healthcare and the govt paying for it, it would probably also work to 'force' everyone to buy insurance. isn't that the same thing? QuoteThe cost, en masse would go down. uh huh,,, adding demand always drives down cost ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #84 February 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteI know plenty of 'average' people who can afford health insurance. ...I ..... have employed ......DOZENS OF PEOPLE who cannot possibly afford even a most basic plan, as even those plans cost $200-$300/month nowadays. so YOU are the filthy rich employer exploiting your employees and not even allowing them the means to afford basic health care.... for shame {{I understand that post is about finding some way to get other people - tax payers, not them, not you - to pay for those dozens to get their 'free' health care}} ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hwt 0 #85 February 19, 2009 One thing that most people do not consider is the fact that there are alot of people who are in a" catch 22" in this country. People with diabetes are considered, pre-existing conditions which cost the employer alot more money. Bottom line these people have a hard time even getting insurance or even holding a job due to there added expense.Blue Skies! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #86 February 19, 2009 Quote In Reply To other than universal healthcare and the govt paying for it, it would probably also work to 'force' everyone to buy insurance. isn't that the same thing? not even remotely CLOSE to the same thing. One is taxpayer based and government run, which many object to. The other is privatized and corporate run, which I object to. The end result (health care) 'might' be the same, but the vehicle by which it is delivered, and certainly by which it is administrated is NOT the same. The corporation is looking for profit. The government (we hope) is looking to provide good health care for its citizens. The government would act as a non-profit, except for future predicted budgets. The corporation would want to deliver its shareholders a bonus each year and would cut/slash/modify/raise programs, premiums, terms and conditions to that end....... Not necessarily try to deliver good health care. Both entities have the same problem - it costs more than they expected. Rather than be 'denied' by my health insurance company (and all the others as well - so much for competition), I would rather just have the option of going to the doctor and having that discussion with him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #87 February 19, 2009 Ah, Massachusetts... where, in the first year after passing the legislation, had to raise the rates by twice the national average, increased the cost to Massachusetts citizens by 25-50%, then cut pay to doctors and hospitals while INCREASING the cost to the state by over 400 million? Clicky QuoteQuoteSurely, they suggest to Dr. Katherine J. Atkinson, a family physician here, she might find a way to move them up her lengthy waiting list for new patients. Those fortunate enough to make it soon learn they face another long wait: Dr. Atkinson’s next opening for a physical is not until early May — of 2009. QuoteDr. Patricia A. Sereno, state president of the American Academy of Family Physicians, said an influx of the newly insured to her practice in Malden, just north of Boston, had stretched her daily caseload to as many as 22 to 25 patients, from 18 to 20 a year ago. To fit them in, Dr. Sereno limits the number of 45-minute physicals she schedules each day, thereby doubling the wait for an exam to three months. QuoteThe share who accept new patients has dropped, to barely half in the case of internists, and the average wait by a new patient for an appointment with an internist rose to 52 days in 2007 from 33 days in 2006. In westernmost Berkshire County, newly insured patients are being referred 25 miles away, said Charles E. Joffe-Halpern, director of an agency that enrolls the uninsured. Thanks, but no thanks.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #88 February 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteI know plenty of 'average' people who can afford health insurance. so do I. And I work for and have employed at Skydive City, DOZENS OF PEOPLE who cannot possibly afford even a most basic plan, as event hose plans cost $200-$300/month nowadays. Ehealthinsurance.com, zip code 33542. 25 year old male, non-smoker can get insurance as low as $34 / month. Admittedly, that is a 'catastrophic care' type of insurance. However, there were reasonable plans that were less than 100 / month.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #89 February 19, 2009 that's the rate they would like you to THINK you are going to get. Once the underwriters are done with you, it is $525 in my case. Stop posting fantasies please. I fully realize that some people get great deals on health insurance. Once again, I am living proof that many do not. Stop asking me to shop around - I have. Stop asking me to tough it up - I cannot afford it. Once I go off my insurance - YOU sir, will be paying for my health care when your premiums go up because of more and more people just like me. It is a good health system - it is not a great one. MANY people, (certainly MOST people if they had to pay for it all by themselves), cannot afford the American Health Care System. Universal Health care is coming. In my lifetime (and yours). It is progress. It is taking care of your own. It is a right. talk to you in 20 years when I prove you wrong....... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #90 February 19, 2009 QuoteStop posting fantasies please. I will when you will. QuoteI fully realize that some people get great deals on health insurance. Once again, I am living proof that many do not. Stop asking me to shop around - I have. Stop asking me to tough it up - I cannot afford it. Stop using a sample size of one to characterize an entire system. QuoteOnce I go off my insurance - YOU sir, will be paying for my health care when your premiums go up because of more and more people just like me. I do that now - it's called Medicare/Medicaid. QuoteIt is a good health system - it is not a great one. MANY people, (certainly MOST people if they had to pay for it all by themselves), cannot afford the American Health Care System. And much of that cost can be laid directly at the feet of the Medicaid system - do the research. QuoteUniversal Health care is coming. In my lifetime (and yours). It is progress. It is taking care of your own. It is a right. talk to you in 20 years when I prove you wrong....... Think you'll make it that long, with the great expanded wait for services and non-available tests and surgeries that are happening now under the socialized healthcare systems?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #91 February 19, 2009 QuoteQuote In Reply To other than universal healthcare and the govt paying for it, it would probably also work to 'force' everyone to buy insurance. isn't that the same thing? not even remotely CLOSE to the same thing. in terms of "everybody has to pay for it" it is - UHC is forcing everyone (at least those that pay taxes) to pay for it you have an assumption that the gov would do it cheaper reality is, it would be cheaper for some and not for others - and even free for some but it still has to be paid for ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #92 February 19, 2009 Quoteother than universal healthcare and the govt paying for it, it would probably also work to 'force' everyone to buy insurance. The cost, en masse would go down. Massachusetts is already doing it as well as others. you would also have to pass laws that do not allow companies to deny you coverage or up your rates because of preexisting conditions or because of what you do for a living. One of the problem's with President Obama's healthcare plan during the campaign was that it didn't allow insurance companies to deny coverage, but also didn't require everyone to obtain insurance coverage. That's a non-workable combination. It would result in many young, relatively healthy people opting to go without health insurance, increasing premiums for everyone else (compared to what they would be if everyone were required to obtain coverage). If insurance companies are not allowed to deny coverage, then everyone must be required to obtain coverage. QuoteAnother fallacy about the govt run healthcare is that it is inefficient. It is not actually. Medicare/Medicaid spends far less in administrative costs that private sector. More generally, it is a fallacy that the government is less efficient than private industry. Neither is inherently more or less efficient than the other. QuoteMedicare is not there to DENY you coverage, but the goal of the private sector IS to deny you coverage. - that's how they make money. Actually the private sector are there to make a profit. Denying coverage is just one of the ways in which they accomplish that. Private insurance companies make profits by offering consumers a negative expected value on their premiums.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #93 February 19, 2009 Quoteuh huh,,, adding demand always drives down cost Nope. Adding demand doesn't always drive down prices. Nor does it always increase prices. For example, the US consumes more gasoline/diesel than any other country in the world, yet our fuel prices are among the lowest world wide. Supply and demand are very real forces in economics. They are not, however, the only forces, nor are they always the dominant forces that determine market prices. I suspect that the widespread belief that they are the primary forces of economics is a consequence of (among other things) students being exposed to economics long before they are exposed to multivariate calculus.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #94 February 19, 2009 QuoteEhealthinsurance.com, zip code 33542. 25 year old male, non-smoker can get insurance as low as $34 / month. Admittedly, that is a 'catastrophic care' type of insurance. However, there were reasonable plans that were less than 100 / month. I just checked, and the least expensive plan available to me (single 35 yo male non-tobacco) is $3908.68 annually, including deductible. That's not exactly a bargain for anything except catastrophic care. I currently pay far less than that paying cash as I go.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #95 February 20, 2009 QuoteQuoteEhealthinsurance.com, zip code 33542. 25 year old male, non-smoker can get insurance as low as $34 / month. Admittedly, that is a 'catastrophic care' type of insurance. However, there were reasonable plans that were less than 100 / month. I just checked, and the least expensive plan available to me (single 35 yo male non-tobacco) is $3908.68 annually, including deductible. That's not exactly a bargain for anything except catastrophic care. I currently pay far less than that paying cash as I go. What were you selecting for deductibles / copays? Adding the deductible into the yearly cost is a bit disingenious and makes the insurance look more expensive than it is, don't you think, especially since MOST people won't 'use up' the deductible UNLESS there is some sort of catastrophic illness? For my instance (43 male, smoker), the 'ehealth's picks' ranged from 115 to 244 / month. The 115/month plan was a 5k deductible, 0% coinsurance - you're paying your own way up to the 5k. The 244/month plan was 1500 deductible, 20% coinsurance, $25 office visit.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #96 February 20, 2009 let's see the reasonable plan that you spoke of that was less than $100/month. Apparently I am not the only one with this problem of high insurance rates. Consider yourself lucky that apparently you are not affected by this. Maybe when you turn 48 like me, it will be quite different for you too. QuoteStop using a sample size of one to characterize an entire system. OK, now we have a sample size of two. And I guess that there are some 47 million Americans without health insurance - - I would expect that SOME of them have the same problem as me/him. I will not hazard to guess how many due to the expected retort from you on how irrelevant it would be anyway...... yawn....... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #97 February 21, 2009 QuoteWhat were you selecting for deductibles / copays? $2500 deductible, no co-pays for office visits or RX after deductible. QuoteAdding the deductible into the yearly cost is a bit disingenious and makes the insurance look more expensive than it is, don't you think, especially since MOST people won't 'use up' the deductible UNLESS there is some sort of catastrophic illness? It's not disingenuous at all. That's what my out of pocket costs would be before I received any useful benefit from the insurance.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #98 February 21, 2009 QuoteQuoteWhat were you selecting for deductibles / copays? $2500 deductible, no co-pays for office visits or RX after deductible. QuoteAdding the deductible into the yearly cost is a bit disingenious and makes the insurance look more expensive than it is, don't you think, especially since MOST people won't 'use up' the deductible UNLESS there is some sort of catastrophic illness? It's not disingenuous at all. That's what my out of pocket costs would be before I received any useful benefit from the insurance. The useful benefit is that you won't have to come up with $20,000 out of your own pocket for a broken bone; $200,000 for an accident with multiple serious injuries; or even $2,000,000 for a successful battle against cancer. I don't care about my insurance company picking up most of doctors visits that might cost a couple hundred dollars a year, or even the first few thousand dollars after the deductable. The totals aren't that significant and I've been better off putting the $300-$400 a month (up to $1000/month as a married guy) from my employer into a tax advantaged health savings account. Exhausting the savings which was once a home (and will be again), being unable to retire when I get old, or not being able to pass what I've accumulated on to a disabled wife and step children who've yet to join the working world would really upset me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #99 February 21, 2009 QuoteThe useful benefit is that you won't have to come up with $20,000 out of your own pocket for a broken bone; $200,000 for an accident with multiple serious injuries; or even $2,000,000 for a successful battle against cancer. Having trouble reading? There would be no useful benefit until after I paid ~$3900 out of pocket. $20,000 > $3900 $200,000 > $3900 $2,000,000 > $3900Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
