nerdgirl 0 #51 February 27, 2009 Quote... or they go off on an unrelated rant as NerdGirl has done on this thread. How was anything I wrote either “unrelated” or a “rant”? I asked for clarification w/r/t what sounded like an assertion that a 1999 NY Times article implied causality, i.e., “triggered.” I replied that it _did_ suggest something to be investigated, but that it didn’t demonstrate causality. Rather than just replying with a dismissive one-line response, 6 other NY Times articles that also suggest something to be investigated as other possible causative explanations or independent variables were presented. Again returning back to the original assertion, a test case for the causal assertion in the original post that subsequently endorsed by other was proposed: if the causative explanation offered was the independent variable (or as I wrote, any action by the Republican party either), similar mortgage crises should not be observed in other nation-states. It's also context. Unless one wants to make the case that the US Democratic party of the 1990s control/influence the entire world housing market and all world governments and regulatory practices, that’s a test case directly related to the original post. It’s an application of logic to a hypothesis. Constructively, I also offered alternative explanations that suggest multiple independent variables, including one by Alan Greenspan. The OP has indicated he would like "intellectual conversation;" that does not necessarily correspond to mealy-mouth acquiescence or virtual 'high-fiving.' How was any of that specifically, generally, or tangentially unrelated to the OP or other posts in the thread? If you can't refute the argument, it's not my fault ... or are you invoking a strawman ad hominem? Questions that are difficult or challenging to your opinion does not make either the questions or the questioner 'wrong,' nor does it make it an "unrelated rant." How do you rationalize asserting that I made an “unrelated rant” after you’ve written multiple posts responding with “Where do you jump?” or making pejorative comments about my username? /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #52 February 27, 2009 Quote Quote It seems like the right has taken up mortgages as the sole reason for our financial problems. I never hear anyone on the right talk about how the Bush administration allowed a loophole in offshore oil speculation that caused the gas prices to rise dramatically last year. it wasnt Bush but under clinton that caused the gas prices to go up. now before you go of half bent understand that the deregulation that caused the futures market to rise was actually passed in Clintons years. cox admitted to it acording to this article.http://www.stwr.org/multinational-corporations/how-big-oils-lobbyists-contributed-to-big-finances-crash.html The "Enron Loophole" of which you write was sponsored by Phil Gramm (R) and supported by John "the Deregulator" McCain. baltimorechronicle.com/2008/051908Leopold.shtml Then Bush lied to support his buddy Ken Lay: www.consortiumnews.com/2006/052506.htmlIf you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 362 #53 February 27, 2009 Nerdgirl, Maybe we need a new forum "Inquiring minds want to know" or something, for actual debate/discussions. It does seem that SC has been taken over by people who just need to rant, but have no interest in even reading, much less seriously considering, any contradicting information. As in: "I really don't care. Where do you jump?" Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #54 February 27, 2009 QuoteI never hear anyone on the right talk about how the Bush administration allowed a loophole in offshore oil speculation that caused the gas prices to rise dramatically last year. I haven't heard about that potential explanation. Do you have something more on which one can read about that? Quote Nor do I hear about how an illegal war in Iraq increased our national debt by 50% in just eight years, which pummeled the dollar on the world market. That is one component factor -- an independent variable that exacerbated not solely causative -- that Stiglitz (& other have cited) that I've referenced a few times as *part* of the explanation (including in my "unrelated rant," aka post#8 of this thread). QuoteBut hey, if mortgages are the only thing to blame, then we should see a complete turnaround in a few short years when housing prices are back up, right? Perhaps. I suspect that the asset price bubble is an independent causative factor of the mortgage crisis. Do strongly concur that efforts to try to find a single "sole reason" are likely to be problematic and ineffectual because that does not address systematic and global changes that have occurred in the last 35 years. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #55 February 27, 2009 Quote The "Enron Loophole" of which you write was sponsored by Phil Gramm (R) and supported by John "the Deregulator" McCain. Quote But Gramm and the Republicans couldn't have done it without the support of leading Democrats. The most egregious of Gramm's legislative favors to the financiers took the form of legislation named in part after him - the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which only became law when Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin prevailed upon President Clinton to sign the bill. The bill's immediate major effect was to legitimatize the long-sought merger between Citibank and insurance giant Travelers. Rubin's critical support for the bill was rewarded with an appointment, within days of its passage, to a top job at Citibank (later Citigroup) paying more than $15 million a year. I'm sorry, you were saying?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #56 February 27, 2009 Quote Quote The "Enron Loophole" of which you write was sponsored by Phil Gramm (R) and supported by John "the Deregulator" McCain. Quote But Gramm and the Republicans couldn't have done it without the support of leading Democrats. The most egregious of Gramm's legislative favors to the financiers took the form of legislation named in part after him - the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which only became law when Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin prevailed upon President Clinton to sign the bill. The bill's immediate major effect was to legitimatize the long-sought merger between Citibank and insurance giant Travelers. Rubin's critical support for the bill was rewarded with an appointment, within days of its passage, to a top job at Citibank (later Citigroup) paying more than $15 million a year. I'm sorry, you were saying? Seems that you are now straying from "it was all the Dems fault" and conceding that leading Republicans actually led the charge. Progress!If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #57 February 27, 2009 QuoteSeems that you are now straying from "it was all the Dems fault" and conceding that leading Republicans actually led the charge.Quote I've never said it was all the Dem's fault. I *have* shown that the Dems were deeply involved, in response to some *cough*jerzyflies*cough* trying to blame everything solely upon the Republicans.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nerdgirl 0 #58 February 27, 2009 Quote Maybe we need a new forum "Inquiring minds want to know" or something, for actual debate/discussions. Love the name! I once started a semi-formal group: "the Nuclear, Chemical, & Biological Defense Wild Women of Science Sewing Circle and Armed Militia." My favorite retired field artillery colonel loved that one. (But I digress to the unrelated. ) Perhaps ... more and much more heavily moderated forums (as well as the inverse) do exist. I'm on a number of them, most of which are much more narrowly focused in topic. While I agree that the level of discussion has degraded here over the last couple weeks, a good deal of what I value is getting views that I don't hear in my other worlds. There is a cross-section of Americana and, to a much lesser extent, the world represented here. A couple folks have asked me in various ways "why do I 'bother?" And well before today. Because I do care what other Americans think, how they think, why, and how they come to those conclusions (epistemology - how you think you know what you think you know). For many these days, caring about something is regarded as a weakness, a la those who taunt merely to ‘get a rise’ out of another, or being genuinely serious is regarded as uncool, e.g., "Nerdly." Humans have been making fun of, ridiculing, & bullying each other as far as written history goes back. Shakespeare was a master of acerbic wit. When did being a ‘jerk’ become something at which to excel & the ‘cool’ thing to do? We all make choices -- from how we choose to interact with each other to whether or not to participate. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,447 #59 February 27, 2009 Thank you for being here. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks2065 0 #60 February 27, 2009 Quote Quote Quote The "Enron Loophole" of which you write was sponsored by Phil Gramm (R) and supported by John "the Deregulator" McCain. Quote But Gramm and the Republicans couldn't have done it without the support of leading Democrats. The most egregious of Gramm's legislative favors to the financiers took the form of legislation named in part after him - the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which only became law when Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin prevailed upon President Clinton to sign the bill. The bill's immediate major effect was to legitimatize the long-sought merger between Citibank and insurance giant Travelers. Rubin's critical support for the bill was rewarded with an appointment, within days of its passage, to a top job at Citibank (later Citigroup) paying more than $15 million a year. I'm sorry, you were saying? Seems that you are now straying from "it was all the Dems fault" and conceding that leading Republicans actually led the charge. Progress! The problem is not rep or dem it is government itself. both sides are to blame and we are to blame for voting them in. The reason people side with a party is because the ideals they represent are closer to what they want to see happen. unfortunatly politicians lie and cheat to the point that the message they gave to get elected hardly represents what they do. The bottom line is who signs the bill and who do we elect to sign that bill. unfortunatly our choices are not good and our voting is influenced by emotion. Look what emotional voting did for Illinois, we got someone worse in Blago, and I am afraid America did the same in this presidential election by electing Obama. They got pissed at the rep party and sent a clear message that they didn't like what has happened eventhough alot of the problems stem from their other elected people from a while ago. (like the deregulation sign into law by Clinton that has been blowing up fo 8 years) People can't seem to understand that the person currantly in charge is riding the wave set in motion by his predecesor. When something is signed into law it takes a while to see the results of those actions. alot of the things that happened under Bush's terms was set in motion under clinton and alot of what happens in Obama's presidency will be the result of what Bush did. The final verdict on Bush won't be in for years to come and history might just be more favorable to Bush than the public is now. I feel the things set in motion so quickly by Obama will haunt us for years to come and will cause us and our children to suffer financially for a long time to come. Over reaction is ussually worse than no action and the results will cause everything to be worse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Capt.Slog 0 #61 February 27, 2009 Quote Thank you for being here. Wendy W. Do you know where she jumps, Wendy? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StreetScooby 5 #62 February 27, 2009 I continue to be amazed at how seemingly rationale people at the highest level of our government cannot even agree on what's being measured, much less whatever is being measured is supposed to mean. If you can't measure it, you can't control it. Example from the Stiglitz article: Quote The tax cut of 2001 was not designed to stimulate the economy but to give a largesse to the wealthy -- the group that had been doing so well over the last quarter-century. Well, which one is it? Does anyone even know? Or, are these strictly political decisions? BTW - the Stiglitz article was very good, and pretty much spot on. He doesn't seem to realize that we already have "financial product safety commission" that's typically referred to as the rating's agencies (Moody's, etc.), but that could be my misreading. Thanks for posting it. Seems like no one can or wants to answer "What does it mean to be American?". Too many people view that question with disgust, or even flinch these days.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StreetScooby 5 #63 February 27, 2009 Quote When did being a ‘jerk’ become something at which to excel & the ‘cool’ thing to do? MTV generation, and related media?We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bolas 5 #64 March 3, 2009 Quote The argument that we must spend to get out of this mess seems silly. Would a business operate successfully in this way? Sure cuz if they were big enough, the gov't would always bail them out. Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bolas 5 #65 March 3, 2009 Who'd dare call you nerdly? Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. 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nerdgirl 0 #58 February 27, 2009 Quote Maybe we need a new forum "Inquiring minds want to know" or something, for actual debate/discussions. Love the name! I once started a semi-formal group: "the Nuclear, Chemical, & Biological Defense Wild Women of Science Sewing Circle and Armed Militia." My favorite retired field artillery colonel loved that one. (But I digress to the unrelated. ) Perhaps ... more and much more heavily moderated forums (as well as the inverse) do exist. I'm on a number of them, most of which are much more narrowly focused in topic. While I agree that the level of discussion has degraded here over the last couple weeks, a good deal of what I value is getting views that I don't hear in my other worlds. There is a cross-section of Americana and, to a much lesser extent, the world represented here. A couple folks have asked me in various ways "why do I 'bother?" And well before today. Because I do care what other Americans think, how they think, why, and how they come to those conclusions (epistemology - how you think you know what you think you know). For many these days, caring about something is regarded as a weakness, a la those who taunt merely to ‘get a rise’ out of another, or being genuinely serious is regarded as uncool, e.g., "Nerdly." Humans have been making fun of, ridiculing, & bullying each other as far as written history goes back. Shakespeare was a master of acerbic wit. When did being a ‘jerk’ become something at which to excel & the ‘cool’ thing to do? We all make choices -- from how we choose to interact with each other to whether or not to participate. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,447 #59 February 27, 2009 Thank you for being here. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #60 February 27, 2009 Quote Quote Quote The "Enron Loophole" of which you write was sponsored by Phil Gramm (R) and supported by John "the Deregulator" McCain. Quote But Gramm and the Republicans couldn't have done it without the support of leading Democrats. The most egregious of Gramm's legislative favors to the financiers took the form of legislation named in part after him - the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which only became law when Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin prevailed upon President Clinton to sign the bill. The bill's immediate major effect was to legitimatize the long-sought merger between Citibank and insurance giant Travelers. Rubin's critical support for the bill was rewarded with an appointment, within days of its passage, to a top job at Citibank (later Citigroup) paying more than $15 million a year. I'm sorry, you were saying? Seems that you are now straying from "it was all the Dems fault" and conceding that leading Republicans actually led the charge. Progress! The problem is not rep or dem it is government itself. both sides are to blame and we are to blame for voting them in. The reason people side with a party is because the ideals they represent are closer to what they want to see happen. unfortunatly politicians lie and cheat to the point that the message they gave to get elected hardly represents what they do. The bottom line is who signs the bill and who do we elect to sign that bill. unfortunatly our choices are not good and our voting is influenced by emotion. Look what emotional voting did for Illinois, we got someone worse in Blago, and I am afraid America did the same in this presidential election by electing Obama. They got pissed at the rep party and sent a clear message that they didn't like what has happened eventhough alot of the problems stem from their other elected people from a while ago. (like the deregulation sign into law by Clinton that has been blowing up fo 8 years) People can't seem to understand that the person currantly in charge is riding the wave set in motion by his predecesor. When something is signed into law it takes a while to see the results of those actions. alot of the things that happened under Bush's terms was set in motion under clinton and alot of what happens in Obama's presidency will be the result of what Bush did. The final verdict on Bush won't be in for years to come and history might just be more favorable to Bush than the public is now. I feel the things set in motion so quickly by Obama will haunt us for years to come and will cause us and our children to suffer financially for a long time to come. Over reaction is ussually worse than no action and the results will cause everything to be worse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #61 February 27, 2009 Quote Thank you for being here. Wendy W. Do you know where she jumps, Wendy? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #62 February 27, 2009 I continue to be amazed at how seemingly rationale people at the highest level of our government cannot even agree on what's being measured, much less whatever is being measured is supposed to mean. If you can't measure it, you can't control it. Example from the Stiglitz article: Quote The tax cut of 2001 was not designed to stimulate the economy but to give a largesse to the wealthy -- the group that had been doing so well over the last quarter-century. Well, which one is it? Does anyone even know? Or, are these strictly political decisions? BTW - the Stiglitz article was very good, and pretty much spot on. He doesn't seem to realize that we already have "financial product safety commission" that's typically referred to as the rating's agencies (Moody's, etc.), but that could be my misreading. Thanks for posting it. Seems like no one can or wants to answer "What does it mean to be American?". Too many people view that question with disgust, or even flinch these days.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #63 February 27, 2009 Quote When did being a ‘jerk’ become something at which to excel & the ‘cool’ thing to do? MTV generation, and related media?We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #64 March 3, 2009 Quote The argument that we must spend to get out of this mess seems silly. Would a business operate successfully in this way? Sure cuz if they were big enough, the gov't would always bail them out. Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #65 March 3, 2009 Who'd dare call you nerdly? Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
