wmw999 2,452 #101 March 5, 2009 Quotebut you don't have to be very bright to make it in this country!!! Look at GWB, and especially in the music and entertainment industry!Most of them have something which obviously distinguishes them from others. GWB was born into a family with money and power. Most athletes are, in fact, gifted physically. Significantly so. Many are also gifted with discipline. Most entertainers are, in fact, gifted in one way or another. No one watches me act or sing. Everyone has stuff that makes them unique. Some of those things are easier to exploit than others. Life isn't fair. Saying that it is doesn't make it so. People with more talent, intelligence, whatever, generally get ahead. If their family has money or power, they really don't need either. If they have that talent, but are in the wrong place at the wrong time, it probably doesn't matter. I don't feel any sorrier for the rich, talented guy paying more than I do for the poor, untalented guy paying less. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDashe 0 #102 March 5, 2009 I wont disagree that the rich guy should and can pay more, however I think what the dems always propose is RIDICULOUS, it is bullsh*t for anyone to lose more than half their income to the government, especially on BS programs. I also dont think hand outs should be given unless absolutely necessary- like to that poor bastard that had the F-18 crash into his house in San Diego and lost his house and family. You all should read this book. Basically, if you put 10,000 hours of work into something you're bound to make it big if you want to. At that point you have the experience to be the best in your industry: Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell (The Tipping Point, and Blink) brief synopsis in his words: http://www.rd.com/your-america-inspiring-people-and-stories/malcolm-gladwell-on-outliers-the-story-of-success/article104648.htmlSo there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #103 March 5, 2009 Quote?? No. You claimed that 40-50 years ago, corporate execs didn't take home 1000x the income of average employees. That's untrue; I posted an example of just that happening. (In Rockefeller's case it was closer to 100,000 times.) The gap between average worker's pay and average executive pay has been steadily widening. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDashe 0 #104 March 5, 2009 Quote Quote but you don't have to be very bright to make it in this country!!! Look at GWB, and especially in the music and entertainment industry! Most of them have something which obviously distinguishes them from others. GWB was born into a family with money and power. Most athletes are, in fact, gifted physically. Significantly so. Many are also gifted with discipline. Most entertainers are, in fact, gifted in one way or another. No one watches me act or sing. Everyone has stuff that makes them unique. Some of those things are easier to exploit than others. Life isn't fair. Saying that it is doesn't make it so. People with more talent, intelligence, whatever, generally get ahead. If their family has money or power, they really don't need either. If they have that talent, but are in the wrong place at the wrong time, it probably doesn't matter. I don't feel any sorrier for the rich, talented guy paying more than I do for the poor, untalented guy paying less. Wendy W. Gifted with discipline? seriously? cmon... So you fail every test but because youre not gifted with discipline you pass the course? That book I mentioned actually touches on all of what you mention- timing, luck, natural talents... but MOST importantly HARD WORK. It's a great read, especially if you liked his other books So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDashe 0 #105 March 5, 2009 Cite your source please.So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #106 March 5, 2009 QuoteAlso, if you ever rub elbows with these guys, they have a winning mentaility. Don't agree, they have a drive to make money. They have a drive to have a bigger salary, house, island and jet than their competitor. They are not focussed on the company, they are focussed on what is in it for them. (and I am not saying there is something wrong with that) QuoteEver wonder why that investor that lost all the $$ in the ponzi scheme killed himself? Shame and the unwillingness to deal with the aftermath, the phone calls, the meetings and having to live without his butler..... QuoteEnding what you dedicate your entire life to achieving on a bankruptcy and eliminating any chance at advisory positions on boards in the future is NOT what these guys desire. sure they get paid a lot even when they do lose, but they'd trade it in for success I guarantee you that. Of course they would, because it would make them more money. Quoteit isnt discrimination when you fail credit and background checks and can't qualify/are denied a loan. It is a lack of personal responsibility when signing for a loan you can't afford, and lack of discretion and reverse discrimination when the government pressures you to give the loan out anyway because of ethnicity or socioeconomic status. I will admit, after SOME of the banks gave in and the loans were flying with no immediate problems they got lazy and just kept signing while the idiots that couldnt afford the paper they were signing kept digging themselves deeper. Neither side deserves any help, though if i had to pick, i'd side with the banks as they are the ones that can keep the economy turning for the people that were responsible, even though they werent. No, that isnt fair but unfortunately it makes sense IF I had to choose. but again, i say f*ck em both This is simply not what happened, but I know you will never admit that to yourself. You are right that it isn't discrimination when you fail a credit check. It is discrimination when a white dude and a black dude both pass the credit check, yet the black dude gets denied. That in very simple terms was what the lawsuit was about. Quoteedit: And don't worry, I'm confident you have all the skills in the world to drive a company into the ground. Fortunately, I doubt you'll ever get the chance You are right, I won't get the chance to run it into the ground. My desire for money, matched with my skill won't let that happen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #107 March 5, 2009 Quote then what the hell is every else's problem in this country? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Genetics ... Not every one is as smart as your mate. He did good and made the most of his natural talents... Most of us don't have those abilities. Tony my friend, don't hate me. I was born awesome. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #108 March 5, 2009 I know Chris.... you keep telling me..... (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #109 March 5, 2009 The only problem is I'm too stupid to figure out a way to make any money off my awesomeness. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #110 March 5, 2009 Money's not everything mate..... whoops sorry forgot I was talking to a MurkanThe state of Orsumness should be enough. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #111 March 5, 2009 QuoteCite your source please. In 2005, the average CEO in the United States earned 262 times the pay of the average worker, the second-highest level of this ratio in the 40 years for which there are data. In 2005, a CEO earned more in one workday (there are 260 in a year) than an average worker earned in 52 weeks. from http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshots/entry/webfeatures_snapshots_20060621/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #112 March 5, 2009 QuoteQuote?? No. You claimed that 40-50 years ago, corporate execs didn't take home 1000x the income of average employees. That's untrue; I posted an example of just that happening. (In Rockefeller's case it was closer to 100,000 times.) The gap between average worker's pay and average executive pay has been steadily widening. Yes it has! clicky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #113 March 5, 2009 Re: CEO/worker pay... Gotta love that class envy.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #114 March 5, 2009 Nowhere near class envey. I am much closer to CEO compensation than average worker compensation. I think that the current economic crisis clearly shows that the CEOs generally don't deserve that amount of money. The values of the company or stock price have not gone up at the same rate as executive compensation. And this whole story about them deserving the money because their egos are crushed when the company goes bankrupt, well, I am not buying it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,452 #115 March 5, 2009 It'd be interesting to see what the median is as opposed to the average, and what it's been doing over the years. I'll admit to being too lazy to look for it. That said, Mike (next post about class envy), maybe it's class envy, and maybe it's just considering what better use some of that money could be put to. The CEO is not the entirety of a company's success (neither is the sales force, although many salesfolks would be hard-pressed to admit that). He exerts disproportionate power, however. Just because one can choose something doesn't necessarily make it wise. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #116 March 5, 2009 QuoteLife isn't fair. .......... People with more talent, intelligence, whatever, generally get ahead. There are just as many reasonable arguments to say that is 'fair' as it isn't 'fair'. Frankly, it's not a matter of "fair", it's a matter of what is reality and the natural consequences of truth. And, since success depends on many things, and not just one attribute,........ ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #117 March 5, 2009 Quotemaybe it's just considering what better use some of that money could be put to. Hi Wendy - I understand where you are coming from with your comment, but the snippet above is what I see as the core of the argument and what I consider "class envy". Why people think they should have any right to determine "what better use" someone else's money can be used for is beyond me.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #118 March 5, 2009 >Why people think they should have any right to determine "what better >use" someone else's money can be used for is beyond me. Probably because we have a document that describes several of those better uses. Justice, a common defense, defense of liberty, things like that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #119 March 5, 2009 Quote>Why people think they should have any right to determine "what better >use" someone else's money can be used for is beyond me. Probably because we have a document that describes several of those better uses. Justice, a common defense, defense of liberty, things like that. We are speaking of salaries, not income tax. Try again.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #120 March 5, 2009 >We are speaking of salaries, not income tax. Do you pay your income taxes with sand, then? Most of the rest of us pay them with our salaries. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #121 March 5, 2009 QuoteRe: CEO/worker pay... Gotta love that class envy. FACT != ENVY And the fact is that economic growth rate is uncorrelated with CEO/worker pay. The execs, through their good old boy networks (you sit on my board and I'll sit on yours), have come up with a sure fire way of enriching themselves, and stockholders have been asleep at the switch. We see this very clearly when they still award themselves huge bonuses while their corporations are tanking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #122 March 5, 2009 Quote>We are speaking of salaries, not income tax. Do you pay your income taxes with sand, then? Most of the rest of us pay them with our salaries. Although barter income is taxable, the IRS requires people to convert their cows and chickens into US currency for payment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #123 March 5, 2009 Quote>We are speaking of salaries, not income tax. Do you pay your income taxes with sand, then? Most of the rest of us pay them with our salaries. The point of the discussion was the level of CEO pay, not taxes. Care to join the rest of use there, or are you going to content yourself with fatuous arguments?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDashe 0 #124 March 5, 2009 this post of yours as well as this statement from the other guy: "They have a drive to have a bigger salary, house, island and jet than their competitor. They are not focussed on the company, they are focussed on what is in it for them." Are just plain wrong. You're regurgitating what the media feeds you about the outliers on the bad end of the bell curve. That may be true for the Enron guys of the world, but as is true with 98% of media- negative press sells. that the other 95% of execs are doing is trying their d*mndest to better their company, the money comes along with it. Both your statements make it very clear you two have no clue what you're talking about when it comes to senior executives and their M.O. Keep buying into obama's thinly vailed anti-capitalist propaganda. Change will happen, and it ain't gonna be good.So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #125 March 5, 2009 QuoteQuoteRe: CEO/worker pay... Gotta love that class envy. FACT != ENVY And the fact is that economic growth rate is uncorrelated with CEO/worker pay. The execs, through their good old boy networks (you sit on my board and I'll sit on yours), have come up with a sure fire way of enriching themselves, and stockholders have been asleep at the switch. We see this very clearly when they still award themselves huge bonuses while their corporations are tanking. ENVY != FACT, either. Your outrage over CEO compensation is illustrative of what, exactly?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
