Terrorists murder two soldiers in Northern Ireland

[Skyrad 0]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20090308/tuk-ireland-army-base-shooting-two-men-k-45dbed5.html

Two dead & four injured (including two civvies)

My thoughts are with the families.

Will be interesting to see how Sinn Fein deal with this.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

The leader of the nationalist SDLP, Mark Durkan, condemned the "murderous" attacks.

"Those who committed it are steeped in the mindset and means of past violence," he added.

"They need to understand this is not an attack on British army but the Irish people who have voted for and value above all else peaceful politics and democratic accommodation."

In 2008, dissident republicans attempted to kill PSNI officers during separate incidents in Derry City and Dungannon, Co Tyrone.

Security forces defused a 300lb (136kg) bomb in Castlewellan, Co Down, close to a barracks in February 2009.


"They haven't gone away you know"

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Gawain 0]

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"They haven't gone away you know"

That was a question I was asking myself not too long ago. I'm not very well versed on the action, as it were, between the UK, Ireland, Northern Ireland.

Is this a flare up, or have things been popping on and off consistently all these years?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Andy9o8 2]

I sometimes think people use different standards to decide whether an act of terrorism is right or wrong - not by using standards that are absolute, but by using standards that vary from one conflict to another. The old "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" kind of thing. Whenever I see that happen, I find the double-standard to be troubling.

[Skyrad 0]

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"They haven't gone away you know"

That was a question I was asking myself not too long ago. I'm not very well versed on the action, as it were, between the UK, Ireland, Northern Ireland.

Is this a flare up, or have things been popping on and off consistently all these years?

Things have got worse recently but terrorism has been muted but continued all be it at a lower level over the last eight years. The simmering tension is palpable if you spend any amount of time in Northern Ireland. Former memebers of the Provisional IRA have either turned to non political organised crime or have become 'social or community workers'. Having said that 15 PSNI (Police) families had to move in one year alone due to the detectionn of targeted intelligence gathering on them by PIRA.
The 'Real IRA' (RIRA) and 'Continutiy IRA'(CIRA) and others have continued to plant small but effective devices under the cars of police officers. Punishment shootings have continued and so have the beatings in paramillitary controled areas.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

Quote

I sometimes think people use different standards to decide whether an act of terrorism is right or wrong - not by using standards that are absolute, but by using standards that vary from one conflict to another. The old "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" kind of thing. Whenever I see that happen, I find the double-standard to be troubling.

There is no double standard here, these criminals are not freedom fighters they are simply terrorists. Last night they not only shot the soldiers (who no longer patrol the streets but were simply getting a pizza) but then turned the guns on to the pizza delivery guys and two other civilians.

Freedom fighters fight because they have no democratic recourse. There are full and fair elections in Northern Ireland engaged in by all parties from the political spectrum.
These criminals are simply trying to draw the troops back onto the streets. No one on either side wants their children to grow up like my generation did.
This action has been condemed by not only the Unionists but by Sinn Fein and the Nationalist SDLP.

This is what Gerry Adams (Sinn Fein leader) had to say about last nights attack.

"Last night's attack was an attack on the peace process. It was wrong and counter productive,"

"Those responsible have no support, no strategy to achieve a United Ireland.

"Their intention is to bring British soldiers back onto the streets. They want to destroy the progress of recent times and to plunge Ireland back into conflict.

"Irish republicans and democrats have a duty to oppose this and to defend the peace process.

"Sinn Fein has a strategy to bring about an end to British rule in our country by peaceful and democratic means.

"...We support the police in the apprehension of those involved in last night's attack."


So don't kid yourself that these cowardly scum are somehow freedom fighters.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Andy9o8 2]

You missed my point.
Or maybe you didn't.

[shropshire 0]

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So don't kid yourself that these cowardly scum are somehow freedom fighters.

Worth repeating ... over and over again until everyone understands.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Skyrad 0]

If I did it wasn't intentionally. What do you mean? That either way the result is the same? Human damage, pain and suffering?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

I think the same distinction can be applied no matter what your political leaning is to distinguish a terrorist from a freedom fighter.

'Freedom fighters fight because they have no democratic recourse.'

Thats the bottom line. Becase often it is not possible to distinguish them in any other way. But that doesn't cahnge the fact that two hours up the road from me seven families lives have been chnged forever.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Andy9o8 2]

Should not all terrorism be deemed "acts by cowardly scum?"

[Andy9o8 2]

Anyone?

Bueller?

[Skyrad 0]

Not necessarily. There are brave terrorists and cowardly ones. These ones were cowardly. The Taliban who engaged the British Army head on in Afgahnistan regardless of having no air support were brave, still scum but brave scum none the less.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[DARK 0]

terrible what happened last night alright i only heard an interview the other day saying they expect dissident activity to pick up over the next while

i think the peace process and power sharing is way way too far advanced at this stage to be damaged by actions like these(although i suppose that depends on how many more are to come)

until last night it was 12 years since a british soldier was killed in the north

[Skyrad 0]

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I think the peace process and power sharing is way way too far advanced at this stage to be damaged by actions like these(although i suppose that depends on how many more are to come)

And thats the question, how many more attacks? Now the SRR are officially working up north, and with the 300lb IED discovered last month it could be a slippery road to escalation.
A couple of times in the last two weeks I've driven up north and both times heavily armed PSNI have had VCPs just outside of Newry. Think its will be a sight we'll be seeing more of over the comming weeks. Hopefully these idiots will be dealt with swiftly (most likely like Brendan McNamee and McGlinchey were)

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[DARK 0]

i hold out hope that its as obvious to everyone 'up there' as it is to me that these people have nothing to do with the political process and just because they call themselves whatever dosnt make it so

assuming that is the case i dont see how there is any justification for any withdrawl from power sharing or anything like that

i hope the dissident unionists can restrain themselves form any reprise attacks and if they do this could be dealt with and sorted very quickly i think

[likearock 2]

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I sometimes think people use different standards to decide whether an act of terrorism is right or wrong - not by using standards that are absolute, but by using standards that vary from one conflict to another. The old "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" kind of thing. Whenever I see that happen, I find the double-standard to be troubling.

The most important characteristic of terrorism is that a terrorist act deliberately targets civilians. It doesn't matter whether they can also be seen as "freedom fighters" or not. By that definition, this would not be considered an act of terrorism. Whether it is morally justifiable or not, however, is another matter.

I understand that the IRA has conducted attacks in the past that deliberately target civilians. However, this is not one of them.

[Skyrad 0]

I have friends from both sides of the community up north. No one wants to go back to the way it was. I spoke to two guys, one Catholic who lost his wife to a UFF murder and a Prod who lost his brother and was shot himself by the PIRA, neither of them wanted anything but peace.
What kind of psycho would want to return to the troubles?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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I understand that the IRA has conducted attacks in the past that deliberately target civilians. However, this is not one of them.

You are wrong.

After shooting the soldiers there was a pause in the shooting when they then turned and shot the two pizza delivery men and two other civillians. They didn't just get caught up in a burst of fire, they were deliberately targeted.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[DARK 0]

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I understand that the IRA has conducted attacks in the past that deliberately target civilians. However, this is not one of them.

please do not confuse these people with the ira both are terrorists but whatever is left up there is not the ira as you or i or anyone else would know it

these are a knew group/some of the old group who just like violence and crime just because they use the name does not make them the same

[SpeedRacer 1]

twats.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[shropshire 0]

Semantics ... who cares if they call them selves, Terrorists, freedom fighters or owt else - they are no more than scum bag murdering criminals, no other title is required or warranted - Fuck 'em.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[likearock 2]

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I understand that the IRA has conducted attacks in the past that deliberately target civilians. However, this is not one of them.

You are wrong.

After shooting the soldiers there was a pause in the shooting when they then turned and shot the two pizza delivery men and two other civillians. They didn't just get caught up in a burst of fire, they were deliberately targeted.

That's not clear from the article you linked. However, if that should be the case, that would certainly be different.

Do you agree that the critical factor for whether something is an act of terrorism or not is if it deliberately targets civilians?

[Skyrad 0]

That is more difficult than it would first seem. How do you define civillian? By that logic the USA under NATO command committed an act of terrorism when it bombed a TV station in Serbia during the war there.
Also where do you draw the line on collatoral damage? To kill one millitary target is it acceptable to bomb his appartment block in full anticipation of 200 dead civillian colateral damage? This is what Israel has done in the past, is that acceptable or an act of terror? Or how about the targeting of a Security contractor who is not in the millitary? Or a intelligence asset who is a civillian?
Therefore the unspecific indescriminate killing of civillians is the tradmark of the terrorist. The targeted killing of specific civillians is a different matter. So just because a group may kill civillians in the persuit of a political goal, I would argue that it does not automaticly make it a terrorist organisation.
The use of violence perpertrated by individuals or organisations in order to persue a political goal where a valid democratic process is in place but ignored are terrorists.
I maintain that this definition is more valid than the emotive and simplistic distinction of killing of civilians.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[likearock 2]

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Also where do you draw the line on collatoral damage?

Once you start including civilian collateral damage in the definition of terrorism, the definition ceases to be very useful. Under that definition almost all acts of war are terrorism and any nation that engages in war is a terrorist.

It's pretty clear when an act of violence has no military value whatsoever and its only aim is to kill and wound non-combatants.