Capt.Slog 0 #126 March 10, 2009 QuoteHe got what he could afford at the time. It was I guess, a matter of 'pride' in that ranch and a desire on his part to continue something. If, he could've paid the taxes and the going rate at the time, he would've. The price per acre that I gave is what the going rate is because so many people are wanting out of the big cities to move to the country. Why, would he want to move? this is where he was born and raised! It may be hard for some folks to understand that thinking. Chuck Same reason that people have had to move throughout the centuries. Same reason people had to leave the rust belt when traditional industries died. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #127 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteEverybody wants something for nothing and little damned effort. like the bankers? and if you expect me to believe you worked for fifty cents an hour - pull the other one! Believe what you want! My first job was stocking shelves in a grocery store and mopping floors. I got paid .50 cents an hour. That was 1959! There! Did I pull the other one? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #128 March 10, 2009 Quote if you expect me to believe you worked for fifty cents an hour - pull the other one! Why is that difficult to believe? He is, for lack of a better word, old. (No offense intended masterrig, but I didn't think you'd want me to use some newfangled PC term. ) At one time 50¢ per hour was a reasonable wage.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #129 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuote I've seen it on all levels. Seems as though, parents don't know how to say 'NO'! Go to any of the big stores like Wally-World, Home Depot, Lowes and etc. and just try to find someone if, you need help. You usually have to hunt them down. When you do find someone, their response is; 'This isn't my department... I'll get someone!' or it is their department and they don't know squat or they don't speak English. They're most likely, hiding somewhere. Then go to locally owned and operated stores. They still exist, although they're not as convenient. And when the punk kids are rude, tell their Dad, he probably owns the place. That's exactly what I do! I don't need 'convenience' and the kid who waits on me is no punk but quite polite. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #130 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteHe got what he could afford at the time. It was I guess, a matter of 'pride' in that ranch and a desire on his part to continue something. If, he could've paid the taxes and the going rate at the time, he would've. The price per acre that I gave is what the going rate is because so many people are wanting out of the big cities to move to the country. Why, would he want to move? this is where he was born and raised! It may be hard for some folks to understand that thinking. Chuck Same reason that people have had to move throughout the centuries. Same reason people had to leave the rust belt when traditional industries died. It's not always that easy. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #131 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteHe got what he could afford at the time. It was I guess, a matter of 'pride' in that ranch and a desire on his part to continue something. If, he could've paid the taxes and the going rate at the time, he would've. The price per acre that I gave is what the going rate is because so many people are wanting out of the big cities to move to the country. Why, would he want to move? this is where he was born and raised! It may be hard for some folks to understand that thinking. Chuck Same reason that people have had to move throughout the centuries. Same reason people had to leave the rust belt when traditional industries died. It's not always that easy. Chuck No-one said it was, but remember, the USA was founded by people who moved, mostly under much more difficult circumstances than someone who just inherited a multi-million dollar ranch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #132 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteHe got what he could afford at the time. It was I guess, a matter of 'pride' in that ranch and a desire on his part to continue something. If, he could've paid the taxes and the going rate at the time, he would've. The price per acre that I gave is what the going rate is because so many people are wanting out of the big cities to move to the country. Why, would he want to move? this is where he was born and raised! It may be hard for some folks to understand that thinking. Chuck Same reason that people have had to move throughout the centuries. Same reason people had to leave the rust belt when traditional industries died. It's not always that easy. Chuck No-one said it was, but remember, the USA was founded by people who moved, mostly under much more difficult circumstances than someone who just inherited a multi-million dollar ranch. You just don't get it. On 'paper' that might be a 'multi-million dollar ranch'. In reality, most farmers and ranchers are in debt. and only get one pay-check a year! Then again, you seem to have all the answers so, nothing I say can change that. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #133 March 10, 2009 QuoteYou just don't get it. On 'paper' that might be a 'multi-million dollar ranch'. In reality, most farmers and ranchers are in debt. and only get one pay-check a year! Then again, you seem to have all the answers so, nothing I say can change that. He doesn't get it, or is trolling. I'm from a farm - Slog - key point - how much debt is tied into say 8 buildings, one house, 3 tractors, equipment, and a lot of land all for the privilege of working 16 hour days, 7 days a week, for likely the lifestyle of someone making 30-40K a year then, the kid works the farm for years, his old man passes away, and the government wants to tax the value of the property just needed to work the farm so yeah, keep jacking up that inheiritance tax cutoff point - the property is the value, and it's not really easy to liquidate, so it's artifically high anyway - they don't have it in the bank like you might think ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #134 March 10, 2009 QuoteHave you ever heard the expression, "Its better to be thought a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt"? Yes, I have. Central governments (everything from no government to fascism to communism) are a trial and error process in balancing power between The People and The State. The People have proven not to be competent at certain things. Notable examples include justice systems, equality of human rights, and defense of The State from aggressors. It's because of very specific failures of The People that these and other things are written into to that document you haphazardly reference. Your view of where taxes and the military are today is myopic. Where anyone could be understandably upset about wastefulness, you conclude there's a fundamental flaw in what services The People have decided are best provided by The State. So I ask: have you ever heard the expression, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #135 March 10, 2009 Quoteall for the privilege of working 16 hour days, 7 days a week, for likely the lifestyle of someone making 30-40K a year You forgot to mention 52 weeks each year, every year. Don't forget that. (I support the estate tax, but I'm fully aware of how difficult life on a farm is.)Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cliffwhite 0 #136 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteThe 16th amendment to the US Constitution, and the IRS, actually conflicts with most other parts of the constitution. Where it conflicts with the rest of the Constitution, up to and including Amendment XV, Amendment XVI supersedes the other parts. If it conflicts with with Amendments XVII (inclusive) or later, the newer amendments supersede Amendment XVI. _________________________________________________ OK jcd, I see you need a bit of enlightenment here. I'll be glad to share . The Bill of Rights (the first ten ammendments to the constitution) ennumerates some of the rights inherent to all people. It doesn't bestow these rights ,it simply lists out some of our rights and in so doing puts goverment *on notice*, if you will. Considering the 5th ammendments clause concerning private property the 16th is null and void . In simpler terms, no ammendment can "supercede" the first ten. Blues, Cliff2muchTruth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cliffwhite 0 #137 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuote ... if you want the benefits of it, you have to pay for it. If you don't, move to Belize. I think you may be too generous. While Belize can be a tax haven for American ex-pats (along with other cool things), I've been thinking more along the line of the a state that truly has *really* low taxes because the infractructure is so degraded - Somalia. Self-interest is paramount. ________________________________________________ Ya' know Marg, I've noticed you do a good bit of research. I wonder if you could find out for us just exactly what portion of income tax collected actually goes to running the country and how much goes to paying interest on the debt.. You may find the info to be astounding. Blues, Cliff2muchTruth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cliffwhite 0 #138 March 10, 2009 Quote*** A democracy where the majority has the ability to vote away the rights of minorities is evil and immoral. America wasn't set up as a democracy but rather as a constitutional republic. Blues, Cliff2muchTruth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #139 March 10, 2009 QuoteBelieve what you want! My first job was stocking shelves in a grocery store and mopping floors. I got paid .50 cents an hour. That was 1959! how old were you and who's was the store? i ask because i grew up on a small dairy farm (120 acres) and did all the usual farmwork that was needed to be done and was paid very little. later i had a paper round and was paid very little. when i started work at headcorn parachute centre as a trainee instructor in the early eighties i was paid $60 and accommodation - a small room in a row of converted pigsties known as 'skid row'. and fifty cents in today's money would be about $4?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #140 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteYou just don't get it. On 'paper' that might be a 'multi-million dollar ranch'. In reality, most farmers and ranchers are in debt. and only get one pay-check a year! Then again, you seem to have all the answers so, nothing I say can change that. He doesn't get it, or is trolling. I'm from a farm - Slog - key point - how much debt is tied into say 8 buildings, one house, 3 tractors, equipment, and a lot of land all for the privilege of working 16 hour days, 7 days a week, for likely the lifestyle of someone making 30-40K a year then, the kid works the farm for years, his old man passes away, and the government wants to tax the value of the property just needed to work the farm so yeah, keep jacking up that inheiritance tax cutoff point - the property is the value, and it's not really easy to liquidate, so it's artifically high anyway - they don't have it in the bank like you might think Thank you, for your in-put! All my life, I've known farmers and ranchers and they all say about the same thing in regard to the inheritance tax. They don't like it! They or their dad or grand-dad started that farm or ranch and their dream is to see it stay in the family. That inheritance tax stands in the way of that. Folks like yourself, understand that. These city folks don't seem to be able to grasp that concept. All they know is what some professor or text book says. People driving by and see these farmers on a tractor or combine that maybe cost $500,000 or (more often) more, think they're rich! They have no idea. Like I said, you and I, understand what the farmer and rancher is up against. Thanks, again. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,452 #141 March 10, 2009 I was paid .50/hour for babysitting in the 1960's. It was better than nothing. I think that's Chuck's point. I'd be willing to bet (based on how hold I think he is) that he wasn't an adult supporting a family at that wage, but if you raise the minimum wage to where everyone can support a family on it, surprise, things will start to cost more, so that all of a sudden, minimum wage won't support everyone any more. I'm all for a minimum wage. But it will have an impact on the price of goods and services. Why else do you think that people hire contract workers, children and illegal aliens, who work under the table? It's cheaper, which is a competitive advantage. Of course, cheating is also a competitive advantage. It's best to think about the honesty, humanity, and consequences of decisions. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #142 March 10, 2009 QuoteThank you, for your in-put! All my life, I've known farmers and ranchers and they all say about the same thing in regard to the inheritance tax. They don't like it! farmers spend their time whining about money - getting any out of them is like pulling teeth! (i grew up on a farm. so i should know) one thing they like is the vast welfare subsidies they get from the governmentstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #143 March 10, 2009 QuoteI'd be willing to bet (based on how hold I think he is) that he wasn't an adult supporting a family at that wage, but if you raise the minimum wage to where everyone can support a family on it, surprise, things will start to cost more, so that all of a sudden, minimum wage won't support everyone any more. I'm all for a minimum wage. But it will have an impact on the price of goods and services. we're looking at deflation now - money is being pumped into the banking economy. wouldn't it be better if that money went to local workers in the form of an increased minimum wage and if a worker can't support a family on the minimum wage - who pays the bills for the family?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #144 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteThank you, for your in-put! All my life, I've known farmers and ranchers and they all say about the same thing in regard to the inheritance tax. They don't like it! farmers spend their time whining about money - getting any out of them is like pulling teeth! (i grew up on a farm. so i should know) one thing they like is the vast welfare subsidies they get from the government Then, you missed the part about most farms and ranches are in debt up to their butts and only get paid once a year? There's an old saying; "You can't get blood out of a turnip!" If, ya' ain't got it... you can't give it! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #145 March 10, 2009 Quote Quote if you expect me to believe you worked for fifty cents an hour - pull the other one! Why is that difficult to believe? He is, for lack of a better word, old. (No offense intended masterrig, but I didn't think you'd want me to use some newfangled PC term. ) At one time 50¢ per hour was a reasonable wage. You can call me anything you want to... I just consider the source! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #146 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteBelieve what you want! My first job was stocking shelves in a grocery store and mopping floors. I got paid .50 cents an hour. That was 1959! how old were you and who's was the store? i ask because i grew up on a small dairy farm (120 acres) and did all the usual farmwork that was needed to be done and was paid very little. later i had a paper round and was paid very little. when i started work at headcorn parachute centre as a trainee instructor in the early eighties i was paid $60 and accommodation - a small room in a row of converted pigsties known as 'skid row'. and fifty cents in today's money would be about $4? How old I am makes no difference. The fact is, I did what I said. It was a corner grocery store and I had a paper 'route', too before that! Well, .50-cents an hour damned sure, wasn't $4.00! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #147 March 10, 2009 QuoteMt. Rushmore and a History of the Estate Tax It is ironic in a country as devoted to individual liberty and free enterprise as ours that the most ardent promoters of a federal estate tax have been some of our fiercest patriots and richest capitalists: Thomas Paine, Andrew Carnegie, Theodore Roosevelt and Warren Buffet to name a few. Reviewing the thinking of these four men can only add clarity to the current ideological debate over estate tax reform. One might think of these gentlemen as comprising the Mount Rushmore of the estate tax edifice. I emphasize the proponents of the estate tax in this brief history because the burden of proof is clearly on the proponents in the current debate (no one in their right mind wants to pay taxes). Thomas Paine Thomas Paine wrote the first bestseller in American history: a fiery pamphlet titled Common Sense that successfully encouraged a declaration of independence from England. The 150,000 copies published between January 1776 and July 1776 obviously had the intended effect. The heart of Paine’s famous pamphlet is his withering criticism of hereditary government. This critique extends through all his works. “All hereditary government is in its nature tyranny.” “Hereditary succession . . . is in its nature an absurdity, because it is impossible to make wisdom hereditary. . . . History informs us that the son of Solomon was a fool.” “To the evil of monarchy we have added that of hereditary succession; and as the first is a degradation and lessening of ourselves, so the second . . . is an insult and an imposition on posterity.” Later in life, Paine extended his critique of inherited political power to a critique of inherited economic power. (And this critique comes from a man who distrusted governments, disliked taxes and heartily approved of late night tea parties in Boston Harbor!) In two works, The Rights of Man and Agrarian Justice, Paine argued for the adoption of an inheritance tax in England to balance out the unfair distribution of “landed property.” For Paine, it was common sense that God gave “the Earth as an inheritance” to all of God’s children. Paine proposed that an inheritance tax be used to create a national fund that (1) would give the sum of 15 pounds sterling to everyone turning 21 years old as a compensation for the loss of their “natural inheritance,” and (2) would give a sum of 10 pounds a year to every person over the age of 50 as an early version of Social Security. http://pgt.liebertpub.com/pgt/articles/mt_rushmore_and_a_history.htmstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #148 March 10, 2009 QuoteHow old I am makes no difference. The fact is, I did what I said. It was a corner grocery store and I had a paper 'route', too before that! Well, .50-cents an hour damned sure, wasn't $4.00! of course it makes a difference how old you were at the time. if you were just a kid it would have been pocket money wages (and was the store related to your family) QuoteIn 2007, $1.00 from 1959 is worth: $7.11 using the Consumer Price Index $5.77 using the GDP deflator $9.02 using the value of consumer bundle $8.50 using the unskilled wage $16.00 using the nominal GDP per capita $27.26 using the relative share of GDP stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #149 March 10, 2009 . I'd be willing to bet (based on how hold I think he is) Ya' got me! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #150 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteHow old I am makes no difference. The fact is, I did what I said. It was a corner grocery store and I had a paper 'route', too before that! Well, .50-cents an hour damned sure, wasn't $4.00! of course it makes a difference how old you were at the time. if you were just a kid it would have been pocket money wages (and was the store related to your family) QuoteIn 2007, $1.00 from 1959 is worth: $7.11 using the Consumer Price Index $5.77 using the GDP deflator $9.02 using the value of consumer bundle $8.50 using the unskilled wage $16.00 using the nominal GDP per capita $27.26 using the relative share of GDP You're throwing-out all these facts and figures and wanting to know my business and how old I am... I'm old enough to know better! What's your point? You haven't said anything worthwhile. Just the fact you are in favor of a tax that more than likely, can be the ruin of a family business. If, you're just trolling, find another pond! 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cliffwhite 0 #137 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuote ... if you want the benefits of it, you have to pay for it. If you don't, move to Belize. I think you may be too generous. While Belize can be a tax haven for American ex-pats (along with other cool things), I've been thinking more along the line of the a state that truly has *really* low taxes because the infractructure is so degraded - Somalia. Self-interest is paramount. ________________________________________________ Ya' know Marg, I've noticed you do a good bit of research. I wonder if you could find out for us just exactly what portion of income tax collected actually goes to running the country and how much goes to paying interest on the debt.. You may find the info to be astounding. Blues, Cliff2muchTruth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cliffwhite 0 #138 March 10, 2009 Quote*** A democracy where the majority has the ability to vote away the rights of minorities is evil and immoral. America wasn't set up as a democracy but rather as a constitutional republic. Blues, Cliff2muchTruth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #139 March 10, 2009 QuoteBelieve what you want! My first job was stocking shelves in a grocery store and mopping floors. I got paid .50 cents an hour. That was 1959! how old were you and who's was the store? i ask because i grew up on a small dairy farm (120 acres) and did all the usual farmwork that was needed to be done and was paid very little. later i had a paper round and was paid very little. when i started work at headcorn parachute centre as a trainee instructor in the early eighties i was paid $60 and accommodation - a small room in a row of converted pigsties known as 'skid row'. and fifty cents in today's money would be about $4?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #140 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteYou just don't get it. On 'paper' that might be a 'multi-million dollar ranch'. In reality, most farmers and ranchers are in debt. and only get one pay-check a year! Then again, you seem to have all the answers so, nothing I say can change that. He doesn't get it, or is trolling. I'm from a farm - Slog - key point - how much debt is tied into say 8 buildings, one house, 3 tractors, equipment, and a lot of land all for the privilege of working 16 hour days, 7 days a week, for likely the lifestyle of someone making 30-40K a year then, the kid works the farm for years, his old man passes away, and the government wants to tax the value of the property just needed to work the farm so yeah, keep jacking up that inheiritance tax cutoff point - the property is the value, and it's not really easy to liquidate, so it's artifically high anyway - they don't have it in the bank like you might think Thank you, for your in-put! All my life, I've known farmers and ranchers and they all say about the same thing in regard to the inheritance tax. They don't like it! They or their dad or grand-dad started that farm or ranch and their dream is to see it stay in the family. That inheritance tax stands in the way of that. Folks like yourself, understand that. These city folks don't seem to be able to grasp that concept. All they know is what some professor or text book says. People driving by and see these farmers on a tractor or combine that maybe cost $500,000 or (more often) more, think they're rich! They have no idea. Like I said, you and I, understand what the farmer and rancher is up against. Thanks, again. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,452 #141 March 10, 2009 I was paid .50/hour for babysitting in the 1960's. It was better than nothing. I think that's Chuck's point. I'd be willing to bet (based on how hold I think he is) that he wasn't an adult supporting a family at that wage, but if you raise the minimum wage to where everyone can support a family on it, surprise, things will start to cost more, so that all of a sudden, minimum wage won't support everyone any more. I'm all for a minimum wage. But it will have an impact on the price of goods and services. Why else do you think that people hire contract workers, children and illegal aliens, who work under the table? It's cheaper, which is a competitive advantage. Of course, cheating is also a competitive advantage. It's best to think about the honesty, humanity, and consequences of decisions. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #142 March 10, 2009 QuoteThank you, for your in-put! All my life, I've known farmers and ranchers and they all say about the same thing in regard to the inheritance tax. They don't like it! farmers spend their time whining about money - getting any out of them is like pulling teeth! (i grew up on a farm. so i should know) one thing they like is the vast welfare subsidies they get from the governmentstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #143 March 10, 2009 QuoteI'd be willing to bet (based on how hold I think he is) that he wasn't an adult supporting a family at that wage, but if you raise the minimum wage to where everyone can support a family on it, surprise, things will start to cost more, so that all of a sudden, minimum wage won't support everyone any more. I'm all for a minimum wage. But it will have an impact on the price of goods and services. we're looking at deflation now - money is being pumped into the banking economy. wouldn't it be better if that money went to local workers in the form of an increased minimum wage and if a worker can't support a family on the minimum wage - who pays the bills for the family?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #144 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteThank you, for your in-put! All my life, I've known farmers and ranchers and they all say about the same thing in regard to the inheritance tax. They don't like it! farmers spend their time whining about money - getting any out of them is like pulling teeth! (i grew up on a farm. so i should know) one thing they like is the vast welfare subsidies they get from the government Then, you missed the part about most farms and ranches are in debt up to their butts and only get paid once a year? There's an old saying; "You can't get blood out of a turnip!" If, ya' ain't got it... you can't give it! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #145 March 10, 2009 Quote Quote if you expect me to believe you worked for fifty cents an hour - pull the other one! Why is that difficult to believe? He is, for lack of a better word, old. (No offense intended masterrig, but I didn't think you'd want me to use some newfangled PC term. ) At one time 50¢ per hour was a reasonable wage. You can call me anything you want to... I just consider the source! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #146 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteBelieve what you want! My first job was stocking shelves in a grocery store and mopping floors. I got paid .50 cents an hour. That was 1959! how old were you and who's was the store? i ask because i grew up on a small dairy farm (120 acres) and did all the usual farmwork that was needed to be done and was paid very little. later i had a paper round and was paid very little. when i started work at headcorn parachute centre as a trainee instructor in the early eighties i was paid $60 and accommodation - a small room in a row of converted pigsties known as 'skid row'. and fifty cents in today's money would be about $4? How old I am makes no difference. The fact is, I did what I said. It was a corner grocery store and I had a paper 'route', too before that! Well, .50-cents an hour damned sure, wasn't $4.00! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #147 March 10, 2009 QuoteMt. Rushmore and a History of the Estate Tax It is ironic in a country as devoted to individual liberty and free enterprise as ours that the most ardent promoters of a federal estate tax have been some of our fiercest patriots and richest capitalists: Thomas Paine, Andrew Carnegie, Theodore Roosevelt and Warren Buffet to name a few. Reviewing the thinking of these four men can only add clarity to the current ideological debate over estate tax reform. One might think of these gentlemen as comprising the Mount Rushmore of the estate tax edifice. I emphasize the proponents of the estate tax in this brief history because the burden of proof is clearly on the proponents in the current debate (no one in their right mind wants to pay taxes). Thomas Paine Thomas Paine wrote the first bestseller in American history: a fiery pamphlet titled Common Sense that successfully encouraged a declaration of independence from England. The 150,000 copies published between January 1776 and July 1776 obviously had the intended effect. The heart of Paine’s famous pamphlet is his withering criticism of hereditary government. This critique extends through all his works. “All hereditary government is in its nature tyranny.” “Hereditary succession . . . is in its nature an absurdity, because it is impossible to make wisdom hereditary. . . . History informs us that the son of Solomon was a fool.” “To the evil of monarchy we have added that of hereditary succession; and as the first is a degradation and lessening of ourselves, so the second . . . is an insult and an imposition on posterity.” Later in life, Paine extended his critique of inherited political power to a critique of inherited economic power. (And this critique comes from a man who distrusted governments, disliked taxes and heartily approved of late night tea parties in Boston Harbor!) In two works, The Rights of Man and Agrarian Justice, Paine argued for the adoption of an inheritance tax in England to balance out the unfair distribution of “landed property.” For Paine, it was common sense that God gave “the Earth as an inheritance” to all of God’s children. Paine proposed that an inheritance tax be used to create a national fund that (1) would give the sum of 15 pounds sterling to everyone turning 21 years old as a compensation for the loss of their “natural inheritance,” and (2) would give a sum of 10 pounds a year to every person over the age of 50 as an early version of Social Security. http://pgt.liebertpub.com/pgt/articles/mt_rushmore_and_a_history.htmstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #148 March 10, 2009 QuoteHow old I am makes no difference. The fact is, I did what I said. It was a corner grocery store and I had a paper 'route', too before that! Well, .50-cents an hour damned sure, wasn't $4.00! of course it makes a difference how old you were at the time. if you were just a kid it would have been pocket money wages (and was the store related to your family) QuoteIn 2007, $1.00 from 1959 is worth: $7.11 using the Consumer Price Index $5.77 using the GDP deflator $9.02 using the value of consumer bundle $8.50 using the unskilled wage $16.00 using the nominal GDP per capita $27.26 using the relative share of GDP stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #149 March 10, 2009 . I'd be willing to bet (based on how hold I think he is) Ya' got me! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #150 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteHow old I am makes no difference. The fact is, I did what I said. It was a corner grocery store and I had a paper 'route', too before that! Well, .50-cents an hour damned sure, wasn't $4.00! of course it makes a difference how old you were at the time. if you were just a kid it would have been pocket money wages (and was the store related to your family) QuoteIn 2007, $1.00 from 1959 is worth: $7.11 using the Consumer Price Index $5.77 using the GDP deflator $9.02 using the value of consumer bundle $8.50 using the unskilled wage $16.00 using the nominal GDP per capita $27.26 using the relative share of GDP You're throwing-out all these facts and figures and wanting to know my business and how old I am... I'm old enough to know better! What's your point? You haven't said anything worthwhile. Just the fact you are in favor of a tax that more than likely, can be the ruin of a family business. If, you're just trolling, find another pond! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Next Page 6 of 11 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
cliffwhite 0 #138 March 10, 2009 Quote*** A democracy where the majority has the ability to vote away the rights of minorities is evil and immoral. America wasn't set up as a democracy but rather as a constitutional republic. Blues, Cliff2muchTruth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #139 March 10, 2009 QuoteBelieve what you want! My first job was stocking shelves in a grocery store and mopping floors. I got paid .50 cents an hour. That was 1959! how old were you and who's was the store? i ask because i grew up on a small dairy farm (120 acres) and did all the usual farmwork that was needed to be done and was paid very little. later i had a paper round and was paid very little. when i started work at headcorn parachute centre as a trainee instructor in the early eighties i was paid $60 and accommodation - a small room in a row of converted pigsties known as 'skid row'. and fifty cents in today's money would be about $4?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #140 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteYou just don't get it. On 'paper' that might be a 'multi-million dollar ranch'. In reality, most farmers and ranchers are in debt. and only get one pay-check a year! Then again, you seem to have all the answers so, nothing I say can change that. He doesn't get it, or is trolling. I'm from a farm - Slog - key point - how much debt is tied into say 8 buildings, one house, 3 tractors, equipment, and a lot of land all for the privilege of working 16 hour days, 7 days a week, for likely the lifestyle of someone making 30-40K a year then, the kid works the farm for years, his old man passes away, and the government wants to tax the value of the property just needed to work the farm so yeah, keep jacking up that inheiritance tax cutoff point - the property is the value, and it's not really easy to liquidate, so it's artifically high anyway - they don't have it in the bank like you might think Thank you, for your in-put! All my life, I've known farmers and ranchers and they all say about the same thing in regard to the inheritance tax. They don't like it! They or their dad or grand-dad started that farm or ranch and their dream is to see it stay in the family. That inheritance tax stands in the way of that. Folks like yourself, understand that. These city folks don't seem to be able to grasp that concept. All they know is what some professor or text book says. People driving by and see these farmers on a tractor or combine that maybe cost $500,000 or (more often) more, think they're rich! They have no idea. Like I said, you and I, understand what the farmer and rancher is up against. Thanks, again. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,452 #141 March 10, 2009 I was paid .50/hour for babysitting in the 1960's. It was better than nothing. I think that's Chuck's point. I'd be willing to bet (based on how hold I think he is) that he wasn't an adult supporting a family at that wage, but if you raise the minimum wage to where everyone can support a family on it, surprise, things will start to cost more, so that all of a sudden, minimum wage won't support everyone any more. I'm all for a minimum wage. But it will have an impact on the price of goods and services. Why else do you think that people hire contract workers, children and illegal aliens, who work under the table? It's cheaper, which is a competitive advantage. Of course, cheating is also a competitive advantage. It's best to think about the honesty, humanity, and consequences of decisions. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #142 March 10, 2009 QuoteThank you, for your in-put! All my life, I've known farmers and ranchers and they all say about the same thing in regard to the inheritance tax. They don't like it! farmers spend their time whining about money - getting any out of them is like pulling teeth! (i grew up on a farm. so i should know) one thing they like is the vast welfare subsidies they get from the governmentstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #143 March 10, 2009 QuoteI'd be willing to bet (based on how hold I think he is) that he wasn't an adult supporting a family at that wage, but if you raise the minimum wage to where everyone can support a family on it, surprise, things will start to cost more, so that all of a sudden, minimum wage won't support everyone any more. I'm all for a minimum wage. But it will have an impact on the price of goods and services. we're looking at deflation now - money is being pumped into the banking economy. wouldn't it be better if that money went to local workers in the form of an increased minimum wage and if a worker can't support a family on the minimum wage - who pays the bills for the family?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #144 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteThank you, for your in-put! All my life, I've known farmers and ranchers and they all say about the same thing in regard to the inheritance tax. They don't like it! farmers spend their time whining about money - getting any out of them is like pulling teeth! (i grew up on a farm. so i should know) one thing they like is the vast welfare subsidies they get from the government Then, you missed the part about most farms and ranches are in debt up to their butts and only get paid once a year? There's an old saying; "You can't get blood out of a turnip!" If, ya' ain't got it... you can't give it! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #145 March 10, 2009 Quote Quote if you expect me to believe you worked for fifty cents an hour - pull the other one! Why is that difficult to believe? He is, for lack of a better word, old. (No offense intended masterrig, but I didn't think you'd want me to use some newfangled PC term. ) At one time 50¢ per hour was a reasonable wage. You can call me anything you want to... I just consider the source! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #146 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteBelieve what you want! My first job was stocking shelves in a grocery store and mopping floors. I got paid .50 cents an hour. That was 1959! how old were you and who's was the store? i ask because i grew up on a small dairy farm (120 acres) and did all the usual farmwork that was needed to be done and was paid very little. later i had a paper round and was paid very little. when i started work at headcorn parachute centre as a trainee instructor in the early eighties i was paid $60 and accommodation - a small room in a row of converted pigsties known as 'skid row'. and fifty cents in today's money would be about $4? How old I am makes no difference. The fact is, I did what I said. It was a corner grocery store and I had a paper 'route', too before that! Well, .50-cents an hour damned sure, wasn't $4.00! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #147 March 10, 2009 QuoteMt. Rushmore and a History of the Estate Tax It is ironic in a country as devoted to individual liberty and free enterprise as ours that the most ardent promoters of a federal estate tax have been some of our fiercest patriots and richest capitalists: Thomas Paine, Andrew Carnegie, Theodore Roosevelt and Warren Buffet to name a few. Reviewing the thinking of these four men can only add clarity to the current ideological debate over estate tax reform. One might think of these gentlemen as comprising the Mount Rushmore of the estate tax edifice. I emphasize the proponents of the estate tax in this brief history because the burden of proof is clearly on the proponents in the current debate (no one in their right mind wants to pay taxes). Thomas Paine Thomas Paine wrote the first bestseller in American history: a fiery pamphlet titled Common Sense that successfully encouraged a declaration of independence from England. The 150,000 copies published between January 1776 and July 1776 obviously had the intended effect. The heart of Paine’s famous pamphlet is his withering criticism of hereditary government. This critique extends through all his works. “All hereditary government is in its nature tyranny.” “Hereditary succession . . . is in its nature an absurdity, because it is impossible to make wisdom hereditary. . . . History informs us that the son of Solomon was a fool.” “To the evil of monarchy we have added that of hereditary succession; and as the first is a degradation and lessening of ourselves, so the second . . . is an insult and an imposition on posterity.” Later in life, Paine extended his critique of inherited political power to a critique of inherited economic power. (And this critique comes from a man who distrusted governments, disliked taxes and heartily approved of late night tea parties in Boston Harbor!) In two works, The Rights of Man and Agrarian Justice, Paine argued for the adoption of an inheritance tax in England to balance out the unfair distribution of “landed property.” For Paine, it was common sense that God gave “the Earth as an inheritance” to all of God’s children. Paine proposed that an inheritance tax be used to create a national fund that (1) would give the sum of 15 pounds sterling to everyone turning 21 years old as a compensation for the loss of their “natural inheritance,” and (2) would give a sum of 10 pounds a year to every person over the age of 50 as an early version of Social Security. http://pgt.liebertpub.com/pgt/articles/mt_rushmore_and_a_history.htmstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #148 March 10, 2009 QuoteHow old I am makes no difference. The fact is, I did what I said. It was a corner grocery store and I had a paper 'route', too before that! Well, .50-cents an hour damned sure, wasn't $4.00! of course it makes a difference how old you were at the time. if you were just a kid it would have been pocket money wages (and was the store related to your family) QuoteIn 2007, $1.00 from 1959 is worth: $7.11 using the Consumer Price Index $5.77 using the GDP deflator $9.02 using the value of consumer bundle $8.50 using the unskilled wage $16.00 using the nominal GDP per capita $27.26 using the relative share of GDP stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #149 March 10, 2009 . I'd be willing to bet (based on how hold I think he is) Ya' got me! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #150 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteHow old I am makes no difference. The fact is, I did what I said. It was a corner grocery store and I had a paper 'route', too before that! Well, .50-cents an hour damned sure, wasn't $4.00! of course it makes a difference how old you were at the time. if you were just a kid it would have been pocket money wages (and was the store related to your family) QuoteIn 2007, $1.00 from 1959 is worth: $7.11 using the Consumer Price Index $5.77 using the GDP deflator $9.02 using the value of consumer bundle $8.50 using the unskilled wage $16.00 using the nominal GDP per capita $27.26 using the relative share of GDP You're throwing-out all these facts and figures and wanting to know my business and how old I am... I'm old enough to know better! What's your point? You haven't said anything worthwhile. Just the fact you are in favor of a tax that more than likely, can be the ruin of a family business. If, you're just trolling, find another pond! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
