Shotgun 1 #51 March 18, 2009 Quote I don't remember the last time I heard the word terrorist, without it being preceded by Muslim or Iraqi or Taliban or Jihad. I don't think the "terrorists" that Obama was "palling around with" were Muslims. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #52 March 18, 2009 QuoteQuoteWhat about the Ku Klux Klan, gang-bangers, skin-heads, neo-nazis, drug runners... did I miss anyone? I'm interested in any recent news reports that label any persons belonging to these organizations as terrorists. If you can find any news stories of recent criminal activities of gang members, KKKers, skin-heads, or drug runners, where they are labeled as "terrorists", please provide a link. These news reports you ask of, are mostly on a local level, like home invasions, beatings, robberies, murders on our southwest border, threats by different groups on representatives of the media and the like. Rallies by various groups in towns across the country that are racist in nature to me, are forms of terrorism. I apologise to you and the other posters for my mis-understanding of the topic and i'll leave you to your discussion. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ripple 0 #53 March 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteOr to put it another way, its a shame the media doesn't report it when Muslims do speak out against the Islam extremists I actually think the media would report it since its "news" (at least in their eyes). the public needs to know that the leaders do not accept these tactics and they should speak openly and clearly against it. by being vague about it, they do very little to fight the "Islam=terrorists" image Ummmm, well, I'm not sure. At least its not reported as widely as the terrorist incidents are. There was a recent event in Luton, England where some Muslim protestors were displaying pretty inflamatory placards and shouting pretty abusive things at troops just returning from Iraq. The local Muslim community were up in arms (excuse the pun) about it and condemed the protestors activities completely. National media including the tv, radio, newspapers, all reported the protestors efforts but the British Muslim response and feeling wasn't nearly so widely shown. After all, only bad news sells.Next Mood Swing: 6 minutes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #54 March 19, 2009 QuoteThere was a recent event in Luton, England where some Muslim protestors were displaying pretty inflamatory placards and shouting pretty abusive things at troops just returning from Iraq. last time i checked, England was a democracy. these protest, while unpopular, are very far from terroristic... but you're right, bad news sells. that's why leaders who do chose to go against these tactics need to be VERY clear about their message "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #55 March 19, 2009 Quote I don't think the "terrorists" that Obama was "palling around with" were Muslims. References from the 60s and 70s don't count Back then, we used to call the IRA terrorists, too, but not anymore. That was before we redefined muslims as the great enemy of the U.S.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #56 March 20, 2009 QuoteWell, if you really are detemined to see muslims discriminated against in this issue, don't let me stop you from it.. It is alleged that the FBI sent undercover agents, posing as worshippers, into U.S. Mosques, according to a group of Muslim leaders. I wonder how many FBI agents have been infiltrating Roman Catholic churches? Full story below: QuoteTen U.S. Muslim organizations threatened this week to cease working with the FBI, citing "McCarthy-era tactics" by the agency, including efforts to covertly infiltrate California mosques. The groups claim the FBI has sent undercover agents posing as worshippers into mosques, pressured Muslims to become informants, labeled civil rights advocates as criminals and spread misinformation. The FBI declined to comment on specific allegations but called the proposed move unproductive. "Limiting honest dialogue, especially when complex issues are on the table, is generally not an effective advocacy strategy," spokesman John Miller said in a statement. "The FBI has continued our outreach efforts, across the board, with a number of concerned groups and where we agree -- or disagree -- most have concluded the best results are achieved through continued conversation. We believe that, too." The group's statement, dated Tuesday, said several incidents of the FBI "targeting Muslim Americans lead us to consider suspending ongoing outreach efforts." The statement was issued by the American Muslim Taskforce on Civil Rights and Elections, whose director, Agha Saeed, couldn't immediately comment because of a family emergency. The FBI has sent "agents provocateur" into California mosques, according to the statement, which says an FBI agent threatened to make one mosque member's life a "living hell" if he did not become an informant. Statement's Signatories The following groups signed the statement threatening to cut ties with the FBI: • American Muslim Alliance • American Muslims for Palestine • Council on American-Islamic Relations • Islamic Educational Center of Orange County • Islamic Circle of North America • Muslim Alliance in North America • MAS Freedom • Muslim Student Association-National • Muslim Ummah of North America • United Muslims of America Though the statement does not name the mosque member, the Council on American-Islamic Relations said last month it would seek an investigation into the February 21 arrest of Ahmadullah Niazi, an Afghanistan native. "Mr. Niazi previously reported to [CAIR's Los Angeles office] and other community members that, during a raid of a friend's house, an FBI agent urged Mr. Niazi to work with the agency, saying that if he refused to cooperate his life would be made a 'living hell,' " a news release said. Niazi, a member of the Islamic Center of Irvine, told CAIR his arrest was retaliation for his refusal, the release said. The FBI directed questions about Niazi's arrest to the U.S. attorney's office in Los Angeles, California, which declined comment. Niazi, 34, was indicted last month on charges of perjury, procuring naturalization unlawfully, using a passport procured by fraud and making false statements. A search warrant for Niazi's Tustin, California, home said Niazi became a naturalized citizen in 2004 and made false statements about his past aliases and international travel. He also made false statements about contact with his brother-in-law Amin ul-Haq, the indictment said. Ul-Haq is said to be Osama bin Laden's security coordinator and has been labeled a "specially designated global terrorist" by the U.S. government, the indictment said. An FBI agent said in open court that Niazi also had discussed terrorist plots with an undercover informant, according to media reports. Niazi has pleaded not guilty to the charges against him. CAIR's problems with the FBI began before Niazi's arrest. Last year, the FBI discontinued its "formal contact" with CAIR. The Tuesday statement said the FBI unjustly designated CAIR and other organizations as "unindicted co-conspirators" in the Holy Land Foundation case. A jury convicted Holy Land Foundation leaders last year of conspiring to support terrorism and launder money for a terrorist group. "Making this unjust designation public violates the Justice Department's own guidelines and wrongly implies that those listed are somehow involved in criminal activity," the statement said. The FBI's Miller declined to comment on specifics, but said the FBI wants to avoid "formally constructed partnerships" with CAIR. "Our concerns relate to a number of distinct narrow issues specific to CAIR and its national leadership," Miller said. Before the FBI severed formal ties, CAIR officials had met with the FBI to discuss hate crimes targeting Muslims. On occasion, CAIR offered assistance in investigations. The group also held training sessions for FBI agents on Islamic culture and ways to improve interactions with the Muslim community. CAIR this week called the FBI allegations a "campaign of smears and misinformation," a remnant of the Bush administration. "It is not surprising that we would be targeted in a purely political move by those in the previous administration who sought to prevent us from defending the civil rights of American Muslims," said a statement from the group's national communications director, Ibrahim Hooper. Tuesday's group statement also mentioned "a flourishing of anti-Muslim activity" during the previous administration and expressed fear that "counterintelligence programs are quelling lawful dissent." Unless the FBI affords fair treatment to all mosques, Muslims and Muslim groups, the statement said, Muslims should consider suspending ties to the agency. "This possible suspension, of course, would in no way affect our unshakable duty to report crimes or threats of violence to our nation," it said.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #57 March 23, 2009 What's this got to do with muslims/non-muslims being called terrorists? Let's be honest with each other - wherever two sides are aligned against each other and politics are involved, neither side can be trusted fully by an outside observer. As to the Roman Catholic infiltrations: that noone has claimed they are infiltrated doesn't mean they aren't. What with the pedophilia charges a few years ago it mightn't have been such a bad idea at the time either... "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #58 March 23, 2009 This article was posted in response to your implication that Muslims are not being discriminated against. I see discrimintation in te U.S., based on religion, and supported by both the media and portions of the government of the US. I think you probably see the same thing, based on your statement Quote ... wherever two sides are aligned against each other ... My question is, why are Muslims being discriminated against? Why not pick on Zoroastrians? Or Hindus? Or, even better, why not adhere to the U.S. constitution, which guarantees that no law can discriminate based on religion?Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #59 March 24, 2009 Quote This article was posted in response to your implication that Muslims are not being discriminated against. I see discrimintation in te U.S., based on religion, and supported by both the media and portions of the government of the US. Ah, I see. I didn't say Muslims aren't discriminated against, I said that in this issue (thread title) they are not discriminated against. A terrorist is a terrorist. Quote My question is, why are Muslims being discriminated against? Why not pick on Zoroastrians? Or Hindus? Or, even better, why not adhere to the U.S. constitution, which guarantees that no law can discriminate based on religion? I think if you look well enough, any 'group' of people discriminates against others, be it based on country of origin, ethnic status, skin colour, religious beliefs, political beliefs, dress code, amount of scalp hair, gender or whatever you can think of. I also think that (this thread aside) in some cases people are way too fast with pointing the finger at an opposing party and to accuse them of discrimination. Convenient argument - and as the accused party you'll have a hell of a time proving the opposite. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwtom 0 #60 March 24, 2009 Quote A man in Miami killed his ex, mother-in-law, step-daughter and her boyfriend, then killed himself. No one's calling him a terrorist. In Mexico, nine bodies were found, in what is being called an act of "extreme violence among warring drug cartels". We used to call the IRA terrorists. Now, the Irish fringe are labelled "police killers". Some identifiers of terrorism: - intent to "terrorize" larger (mostly civilian) public. - by that create fear and mistrust in population - thus destabilize social order - provoke retaliation/reprisals of authority both against its own population but also other 3-rd parties. - thus further destabilize government & society through initiations of such cycles of violence etc. Certainly common crime does not fit this profile even if a lot of people get killed. More non-Muslim examples IRA, Brigate Rosso (Italy), ETA (Spain), RAF (frmr; Germany), PKK (Turkey), various South American "People's" armies. (In many lists of terror organizations Arab ones make up about half) Also somewhat fitting the description the WWII bombings by allies in Dresden and Hiroshima. Military rationale was quite bluntly along those lines - I guess the historical discussion now is more about justified vs unjustified terror. ******************************************************************* Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
