affirmative action

[GeorgiaDon 379]

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Under such a plan, if two job candidates met the required standards, the candidate whose ethnicity is under-represented in the force would be selected.

I can see why this might be an appealing way to get greater ethnic recruitment, but it seems like it would be at the expense of implementing a racially biased recruitment policy. I'd prefer to see a strict meritocracy independent of race or gender.

I agree about the meritocracy argument. Also I have a bit of a problem with the "met the required standards" part of the above quotation. In my field (University professor), and I suspect this applies to almost every job opening anywhere, when we are looking to hire we write an advertisement that includes the minimum acceptable qualifications. Usually the ad is written to attract as broad an array of applicants as possible. Then we go through the applications and select the best 4-5 to bring in for an interview. Everyone who applies "meets the required standard" (at least minimally), but some are obviously much more "qualified" than others, based on previous research productivity, success at getting their research funded, teaching experience, etc. We hire the best we can get, not someone who just barely meets the minimum qualifications. In the rare (but it does happen) event that two candidates are essentially indistinguishable on other grounds, then gender or race might be considered. We serve a diverse student body, and it probably does unintentionally send a message to the students when 23 out of 25 faculty in our department are white males. The situation is also relevant to police departments, where community relations have a huge influence on their ability to combat crime. An all-white police force in a predominantly non-white community is going to viewed with distrust, rightly or wrongly. If your pool of the best applicants are consistently from one narrow group (say, white male), then something is going on, but that may not involve racism, or it may reflect social problems at a much earlier stage in the process, such as differing attitudes towards the value of education. Also unfortunately some jobs are seen as "uncool" in some circles, for example in the 10 years my spouse has worked for the local county animal control, they have never had a single qualified African-American male apply for a position as a road officer, despite the fact that this county is almost 50% African-American. You can't force people to apply for jobs they don't want, or to go to school and study subjects they don't find interesting.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[kelpdiver 2]

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over the course of several months the employer makes the same hiring decision in the same circumstances - black and white equally qualified - ten times in a row. is this racism?

You still don't know.

In the US, whites represent as little as 40% and as high as 95% of the local population. Blacks average less than 10%, but in some regions it's a majority.

The other reality, of course, is you rarely get a choice of two identical subjects. In recent years, I've been happy to get a choice of two remotely acceptable choices at all, rather than one decent guy out of a bunch of dregs. (and yes, I said guy, we haven't had a female applicant in 3 years - kind of forces the hand a bit).

[dreamdancer 0]

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do you have any specific examples to illustrate your position?

There was talk of implementing a positive discrimination plan to boost ethnic minority recruitment in the UK police service. I don't know whether the plan was ever implemented.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6572897.stm
Under such a plan, if two job candidates met the required standards, the candidate whose ethnicity is under-represented in the force would be selected
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[shropshire 0]

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but if the black employer/interviewer hired twenty black workers in a row that would definitely be racism - yes?

No. Why would it be?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Capt.Slog 0]

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no it isn't a good thing. its racism/sexism.

affirmative action is neither racist nor sexist.

how is it not racist or sexist? placing minimums on minorities and women means that a more qualified white male will be denied a job based on his race and gender.

Don't confuse quotas with affirmative action. Not the same thing AT ALL.

[dreamdancer 0]

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but if the black employer/interviewer hired twenty black workers in a row that would definitely be racism - yes?

No. Why would it be?

the chances of hiring twenty workers of the same colour in a row (assuming applicants are equal in qualifications) by a coin flip is pretty low - about a million to one shot.

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[kelpdiver 2]

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the chances of hiring twenty workers of the same colour in a row (assuming applicants are equal in qualifications) by a coin flip is pretty low - about a million to one shot.

If you're hiring in DC or Salt Lake City, not so low.

[dreamdancer 0]

the odds of flipping twenty heads in a row changes from place to place?

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[kelpdiver 2]

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the odds of flipping twenty heads in a row changes from place to place?

In SLC, both sides are white. In DC, both sides are black.

Your coin flip is the strawman, because there's no place in the country where every employment decision is a choice between two identically qualified whites and blacks. Or even men and women.

[dreamdancer 0]

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Your coin flip is the strawman.

no, it's a thought experiment

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[kelpdiver 2]

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Your coin flip is the strawman.

no, it's a thought experiment

ok.

When you're ready to talk about the real world again, let us know.

[dreamdancer 0]

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Your coin flip is the strawman.

no, it's a thought experiment

ok.

When you're ready to talk about the real world again, let us know.

if it's the 'thought' bit that puts you off - don't worry the rest of 'us' will help you with the tricky bits

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[shropshire 0]

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Your coin flip is the strawman.

no, it's a thought experiment

#

but not a well thought out one

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[dreamdancer 0]

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Your coin flip is the strawman.

no, it's a thought experiment

#

but not a well thought out one

i saw your lips moving when you said that

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[TheAnvil 0]

Anyone who denies racial discrimination is racial discrimination IS a coward. Period.

Thanks for agreeing with me.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[georgerussia 0]

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over the course of several months the employer makes the same hiring decision in the same circumstances - black and white equally qualified - ten times in a row. is this racism?

No, because according to scenario you described his discrimination was based not on race, but on coin flip results.

The problem with your scenario is that it's very theoretical. Having two people applying for the same position, who have exactly the same skills, experience, and demands is already very rare. Having the same situation repeated ten times in a row does not even sound reasonable.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[kelpdiver 2]

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Having the same situation repeated ten times in a row does not even sound reasonable.

Like I said, I'd love to have that choice even a few times, rather than having to pick the least worst.

[happythoughts 0]

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Don't confuse quotas with affirmative action. Not the same thing AT ALL.

Quotas were/are used for AA.

clicky

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The Court also held, however, that the use of quotas in such affirmative action programs was not permissible; thus the Univ. of California, Davis, medical school had, by maintaining a 16% minority quota, discriminated against Allan Bakke,. 1940–, a white applicant. The legal implications of the decision were clouded by the Court's division. Bakke had twice been rejected by the medical school, even though he had a higher grade point average than a number of minority candidates who were admitted.

[jerryzflies 0]

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Don't confuse quotas with affirmative action. Not the same thing AT ALL.

Quotas were/are used for AA.

clicky

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The Court also held, however, that the use of quotas in such affirmative action programs was not permissible; thus the Univ. of California, Davis, medical school had, by maintaining a 16% minority quota, discriminated against Allan Bakke,. 1940–, a white applicant. The legal implications of the decision were clouded by the Court's division. Bakke had twice been rejected by the medical school, even though he had a higher grade point average than a number of minority candidates who were admitted.

Just because it WAS 30+ years ago does not mean it is now. 30 years ago I could gas up my car for 5 bucks.

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[dreamdancer 0]

and thanks for agreeing with me that affirmative action isn't racist

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[dreamdancer 0]

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No, because according to scenario you described his discrimination was based not on race, but on coin flip results.

but it was a 'mental' coin flip. he didn't actually take out a coin and flip it.

(if he actually did take out a coin and flip it that would be a form of 'affirmative action')

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[JackC 0]

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(if he actually did take out a coin and flip it that would be a form of 'affirmative action')

So random chance is affirmative action? Then why don't you just call it random chance instead of pulling out contraversial terms like affirmative action?

So if I put all the applications I recieve for a job into a big box and blindly pull out one to employ, is that also random chance affirmative action?

What about if I sit them all in a room, blindfold myself, spin round 10 times and point? Is that random chance affirmative action?

What a complete load of shite.

[dreamdancer 0]

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What a complete load of shite.

ever served on a jury?

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[kelpdiver 2]

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What a complete load of shite.

ever served on a jury?

justice is random chance?!

[georgerussia 0]

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but it was a 'mental' coin flip. he didn't actually take out a coin and flip it.

Term 'coin flip' implies random selection of one of two choices, where the chance for each of them to be selected is equal. It does not have to be real coin - may be a computer program, or mental. As long as it follows the definition, it doesn't really matter whether the coin was real.

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(if he actually did take out a coin and flip it that would be a form of 'affirmative action')

I do not understand what you're saying. If you mean that he chose the candidate based on internal preferences, then why do you call it "coin flip", which is associated with making a random choice?

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