dreamdancer 0 #151 March 18, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteWhat a complete load of shite. ever served on a jury? justice is random chance?! how were you chosen? QuoteJury selection refers to several methods used to choose the people who will serve on a trial jury. The jury pool is first selected from among the community using a reasonably random method. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_selectionstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #152 March 18, 2009 QuoteI do not understand what you're saying. If you mean that he chose the candidate based on internal preferences, then why do you call it "coin flip", which is associated with making a random choice? recap... Quotea white guy and a black guy in some fictional land, apply for a job. upon interview the employer finds that both candidates are exactly equal; same qualifications, same personality etc... the employer is in a quandary. who to hire? the employer decides to do a mental coin 'flip' and thus picks one of the guys. the white guy is hired. is this racism?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #153 March 19, 2009 No need for thanks - being somewhat familiar with the term racist and its definition, I don't agree. It is racist- as are its supporters. By definition. Face that fact whenever you like - a fact it does remain. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #154 March 19, 2009 Quote No need for thanks - being somewhat familiar with the term racist and its definition, I don't agree. It is racist- as are its supporters. By definition. Face that fact whenever you like - a fact it does remain. no, that is your belief and your belief is a fact. affirmative action is not racist or sexist and neither are its supporters stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #155 March 19, 2009 Quote Quote No need for thanks - being somewhat familiar with the term racist and its definition, I don't agree. It is racist- as are its supporters. By definition. Face that fact whenever you like - a fact it does remain. no, that is your belief and your belief is a fact. affirmative action is not racist or sexist and neither are its supporters You will NEVER be able to get the members of the Uptown Klan that affirmative action has been good for them in any form. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #156 March 19, 2009 Quote Quote Quote No need for thanks - being somewhat familiar with the term racist and its definition, I don't agree. It is racist- as are its supporters. By definition. Face that fact whenever you like - a fact it does remain. no, that is your belief and your belief is a fact. affirmative action is not racist or sexist and neither are its supporters You will NEVER be able to get the members of the Uptown Klan that affirmative action has been good for them in any form. one can but hope to chip away at their ignorance stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #157 March 20, 2009 Running from the facts still, eh? Quote The term affirmative action refers to policies that take gender, race, or ethnicity into account Taking gender into account in a decision is gender discrimination. Those who discriminate based upon sex are sexists. No negotiation. Fact. Deal with it. Taking race into account in a decision is racial discrimination. Those who discriminate based upon race are racists. No negotiation. Fact. Deal with it. Run from the facts with your tail between your legs as long as you desire. Facts they do remain. Affirmative action is racist and sexist, as are its supporters, the majority of whom are cowards who cannot state what they support. Deal with it. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #158 March 20, 2009 Quote the employer decides to do a mental coin 'flip' and thus picks one of the guys. the white guy is hired. is this racism? We're going on second round. Term "coin flip" implies using randomness to make a choice. If the employer used randomness, this is not discrimination. If the employer did not use randomness, then why do you call it "coin flip" instead of "the employer selected the one according to his personal preferences and thus picks one of the guys"?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #159 March 20, 2009 Quote Taking gender into account in a decision is gender discrimination. Those who discriminate based upon sex are sexists. No negotiation. Fact. Deal with it. Taking race into account in a decision is racial discrimination. Those who discriminate based upon race are racists. No negotiation. Fact. Deal with it. no, you deal with the fact that affirmative action is not racist or sexist (you seem to like calling people racists and sexists - why is that?)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #160 March 20, 2009 QuoteQuote the employer decides to do a mental coin 'flip' and thus picks one of the guys. the white guy is hired. is this racism? We're going on second round. Term "coin flip" implies using randomness to make a choice. If the employer used randomness, this is not discrimination. If the employer did not use randomness, then why do you call it "coin flip" instead of "the employer selected the one according to his personal preferences and thus picks one of the guys"? that is the question. the employer/interviewer says they made their choice (because the candidates were equally qualified) 'without preference'. we don't know whether the employer/interviewer is lying or not as we cannot read their mind - just record the outcome.stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #161 March 20, 2009 Quote that is the question. the employer/interviewer says they made their choice (because the candidates were equally qualified) 'without preference'. This is different from what you described before. You have described it in a way that the employer flips the coin and then picks up the guy according to results. Now you describe is as employer made a choice, and we do not know what it was based on, but the employer claims it came from flipping the coin. This situation is completely different, but also completely useless. Discrimination is based on what employer based the choice upon, and in a new version you omit this information. Therefore the answer would be "we do not know".* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
metalslug 36 #162 March 20, 2009 QuoteI agree about the meritocracy argument. Also I have a bit of a problem with the "met the required standards" part of the above quotation. In my field (University professor), and I suspect this applies to almost every job opening anywhere, when we are looking to hire we write an advertisement that includes the minimum acceptable qualifications. Usually the ad is written to attract as broad an array of applicants as possible. Then we go through the applications and select the best 4-5 to bring in for an interview. Everyone who applies "meets the required standard" (at least minimally), but some are obviously much more "qualified" than others, based on previous research productivity, success at getting their research funded, teaching experience, etc. We hire the best we can get, not someone who just barely meets the minimum qualifications. In the rare (but it does happen) event that two candidates are essentially indistinguishable on other grounds, then gender or race might be considered. We serve a diverse student body, and it probably does unintentionally send a message to the students when 23 out of 25 faculty in our department are white males. ... If your pool of the best applicants are consistently from one narrow group (say, white male), then something is going on, but that may not involve racism, or it may reflect social problems at a much earlier stage in the process, such as differing attitudes towards the value of education. This is an excellent post, IMO. It has been expressed by other members here that women and/or people of color, on average, earn less than their equally qualified white male counterparts, and/or are a distinct minority on the executive management of most companies, again despite being equally qualified. Defining what "equally qualified" means within the context of the employment position is the sensitive area here. Appointment suitability for many positions, and actual worth to the company, is about so much more than just study certifications on paper, and academic institutions do not all have equal credibility or standards. A wristwatch cannot measure the accuracy of an atomic clock, in the same way that an employment candidate of any race or gender cannot conclusive know that he/she is the best person for the position (or even equal for the position), and then yell "discrimination!" when they don't get the appointment, or when they are offered remuneration that is less than their perceived equals. Why would white male executives willfully discriminate in the workplace if they secretly believed that all their staff were completely equal within their respective positions? These are men whos' mothers, wives, daughters and sisters are women, and who include people of color as their good friends, favourite president or sports star, whom they quite probably admire and respect. There is no logic in assuming that "discrimination" in the workplace is seldom a meritocracy decision. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #163 March 20, 2009 Quote In my field (University professor), and I suspect this applies to almost every job opening anywhere, when we are looking to hire we write an advertisement that includes the minimum acceptable qualifications. Usually the ad is written to attract as broad an array of applicants as possible. Then we go through the applications and select the best 4-5 to bring in for an interview. The UC version of this for staff (but probably not for profs): promote someone to a new job, list the job description as an open req, interview 4-5 candidates, hire the original person. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #164 March 21, 2009 Run from the facts as long as you like. Facts they do remain. If, in your fantasy world you've concocted for yourself, discriminating based upon race is not racism and discrimination based upon sex is not sexism, then in your fantasy world, affirmative action is not racist. Have fun in your fantasy word. Your fantasy views on this don't comport with reality. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #165 March 21, 2009 Quote Run from the facts as long as you like. Facts they do remain. If, in your fantasy world you've concocted for yourself, discriminating based upon race is not racism and discrimination based upon sex is not sexism, then in your fantasy world, affirmative action is not racist. Have fun in your fantasy word. Your fantasy views on this don't comport with reality. affirmative action is neither racist nor sexist - simple fact (if you believe otherwise present your examples from the real world)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #166 March 21, 2009 Quote affirmative action is neither racist nor sexist - simple fact (if you believe otherwise present your examples from the real world) College admissions is the most visible example - taking lower rated (by their own criteria) black and brown over the white and yellow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #167 March 21, 2009 that's an opinion - not an example which college? stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #168 March 21, 2009 Tell that lie to somebody who will believe it. I don't. Run from the facts as long as you like. They'll be waiting when you find the courage to face them. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #169 March 21, 2009 Quote Tell that lie to somebody who will believe it. I don't. Run from the facts as long as you like. They'll be waiting when you find the courage to face them. still no examples of your 'facts' stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #170 March 21, 2009 A good example is variable strength tests for fire departments for men and women. This exists in many jurisdictions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #171 March 22, 2009 I've already given them - and you've run with your tail between your legs from them. I'll repeat: Taking gender into account in a decision is gender discrimination. Those who discriminate based upon sex are sexists. No negotiation. Fact. Deal with it. Taking race into account in a decision is racial discrimination. Those who discriminate based upon race are racists. No negotiation. Fact. Deal with it. Affirmative action or any other policy which requires decisions to be based upon race or sex is itself racist racist or sexist in nature. Deal with the aforementioned however you so desire. Facts they do remain. Running from facts won't make them go away. Nor will ignoring them. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #172 March 22, 2009 Quote I'll repeat: another knock on the door from the local snotty kid - who then runs away (do you have a point apart from repetition?)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #173 March 22, 2009 QuoteA good example is variable strength tests for fire departments for men and women. This exists in many jurisdictions. a bit of history and detail then would be useful. when were the rules changed? why?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #174 March 22, 2009 Quote still no examples of your 'facts' You don't need examples, just a dictionary. Why do you think discrimination is acceptable? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 379 #175 March 22, 2009 Out of curiosity, do you deny that non-whites in the southern US were disadvantaged in education and employment under Jim Crow laws? Once those laws were abolished, what if anything do you think would have been appropriate to do to address the impact of Jim Crow laws on non-whites? Oh, and please don't barf on me when you answer. I'm just curious how far your "discrimination is always wrong" values go. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
