billvon 3,072 #26 March 19, 2009 >It would seem our 1st President was very much so. George Washington: "The United States is in no sense founded upon Christian Doctrine" George Washington: "Among many other weighty objections to the Measure, it has been suggested, that it has a tendency to introduce religious disputes into the Army, which above all things should be avoided, and in many instances would compel men to a mode of Worship which they do not profess." (Sounds like he'd be very much against prayer in schools!) Thomas Jefferson: "When the clergy addressed General Washington, on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address as to force him at length to disclose publicly whether he was a Christian or not. However, he observed, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly, except that, which he passed over without notice." Thomas Jefferson: ""I know that Gouverneur Morris, who claimed to be in his secrets, and believed himself to be so, has often told me that General Washington believed no more in that system [Christianity] than he did." The Rev. Bird Wilson: "When Congress sat in Philadelphia, President Washington attended the Episcopal Church. The rector, Dr. Abercrombie, told me that on the days when the sacrament of the Lord's Supper was to be administered, Washington's custom was to arise just before the ceremony commenced, and walk out of the church. This became a subject of remark in the congregation, as setting a bad example. At length the Doctor undertook to speak of it, with a direct allusion to the President. Washington was heard afterwards to remark that this was the first time a clergyman had thus preached to him, and he should henceforth neither trouble the Doctor or his congregation on such occasions, and ever after that, upon communion days, 'he absented himself altogether from church.'" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #27 March 19, 2009 QuoteThis is great!!!!!! More Americans need to think this way. OUR COUNTRY was also founded on a belief of GOD but we worry so much about offending people that our whole country is changing. A substantial number of the colonists left Europe because they practiced a form of Christianity not accepted there. That greatly changes the argument you're trying to make. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #28 March 19, 2009 You are right. He seemed to be more of a Diest than a Christian much like Benjamin Franklin. From what I'm reading HERE, I feel it would be foolish to state our founding fathers were not christian.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #29 March 19, 2009 QuoteYou are right. He seemed to be more of a Diest than a Christian much like Benjamin Franklin. From what I'm reading HERE, I feel it would be foolish to state our founding fathers were not christian. The question isn't what they were, the question is what they intended this country to be ..."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,072 #30 March 19, 2009 >The question isn't what they were, the question is what they intended this >country to be ... Good point. Fortunately, they made it pretty clear what they intended the country to be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ncjumpjunkie 0 #31 March 19, 2009 Quote >The question isn't what they were, the question is what they intended this >country to be ... Good point. Fortunately, they made it pretty clear what they intended the country to be. "One nation under GOD with liberty and justice for ALL"SONIC BEEF #1 BASE 708, NC BASE 3 SLI,IADI,AFFI.TIE.FAA Rigger, Single & Multi Commercial Pilot,CFI, CFII, MEI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #32 March 19, 2009 Quote "One nation under GOD with liberty and justice for ALL" I don't think I've ever heard that. What is it from? Who wrote it? When was it written?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,541 #33 March 19, 2009 They didn't do that. The Pledge of Alliegiance was written over a hundred years after the country was founded. The words "Under God" were added in 1954. THEY DIDN'T DO THAT Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #34 March 19, 2009 Spoilsport! -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,541 #35 March 19, 2009 That's my job. Along with goody-goody "can't we all just get along" posts, and the very occasional "toughen the fuck up." Wendy W. There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #36 March 19, 2009 Some historians believe that it was Benjamin Franklin who proffered "one nation over Satan, but that was a real turkey. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #37 March 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteYou are right. He seemed to be more of a Diest than a Christian much like Benjamin Franklin. From what I'm reading HERE, I feel it would be foolish to state our founding fathers were not christian. The question isn't what they were, the question is what they intended this country to be ... I was responding to someone who claimed our founding fathers were largely non-christian.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #38 March 19, 2009 QuoteSome historians believe that it was Benjamin Franklin who proffered "one nation over Satan, but that was a real turkey. as was the counter proposal of "One Nation, Next to Santa" ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #39 March 19, 2009 Quote Quote >The question isn't what they were, the question is what they intended this >country to be ... Good point. Fortunately, they made it pretty clear what they intended the country to be. "One nation under GOD with liberty and justice for ALL" Is it the reading or the comprehending that is difficult? "That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #40 March 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteYou are right. He seemed to be more of a Diest than a Christian much like Benjamin Franklin. From what I'm reading HERE, I feel it would be foolish to state our founding fathers were not christian. The question isn't what they were, the question is what they intended this country to be ... I was responding to someone who claimed our founding fathers were largely non-christian. I was responding that it doesn't matter what our founding fathers were ..."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,072 #41 March 19, 2009 >"One nation under GOD with liberty and justice for ALL Original (i.e. the classic founding-fathers version): "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." Notice anything missing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #42 March 19, 2009 Quote That's my job. Along with goody-goody "can't we all just get along" posts, and the very occasional "toughen the fuck up." Wendy W. Sort of like the Catholic nuns... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,541 #43 March 19, 2009 Ooh -- can I use the ruler Wendy W. There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,072 #44 March 19, 2009 >"One nation under GOD with liberty and justice for ALL Actually, not only did the original pledge not have "God" in it. In addition (and this will really bake your noodle) it was written by a socialist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #45 March 19, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote You are right. He seemed to be more of a Diest than a Christian much like Benjamin Franklin. From what I'm reading HERE, I feel it would be foolish to state our founding fathers were not christian. The question isn't what they were, the question is what they intended this country to be ... I was responding to someone who claimed our founding fathers were largely non-christian. I was responding that it doesn't matter what our founding fathers were ... I think it's arguable our nation was in fact founded on Christianity. Freedom of religion was born of pursecution by England for anyone who did not follow the Church of England variety of Christianity. They weren't pursecuted for not being Christian...but for not being a specific breed of Christian. Fortunately, they were smart enough to extend this freedom to religions other than Christianity as well. For the record I'm Buddhist www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #46 March 19, 2009 Putting the entire GOD argument aside for a second, I think Rudd’s argument is more about Australian Culture than about religion. He insists that anyone coming from another culture or religion should respect the culture of the place they are moving to. Or, put simply, “When in Rome”! I think this is also true of recent trends here in the US. And, I think it’s refreshing to hear someone stand up and speak to that issue which may not be politically correct. But, then again, that’s not the ideology our founding fathers used with the Indians now is it?? I now return you to your GOD discussion…Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #47 March 19, 2009 So all Australians play a digeradoo?"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #48 March 20, 2009 Forgetting for a moment that the quote is bullshit... QuoteSince the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians Theres a fine line between Patrioism and Nationalism. The former is used to send the gullible to their deaths en mass, the latter is used to start the mass murder of the former...Stupid is as stupid does.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #49 March 20, 2009 Quote(and this will really bake your noodle) So instead of "There is no spoon" it should be "There is no god"?Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #50 March 20, 2009 What a fabulous discussion and some great passages all y’all posted. Quote I think it's arguable our nation was in fact founded on Christianity. Freedom of religion was born of pursecution by England for anyone who did not follow the Church of England variety of Christianity. They weren't pursecuted for not being Christian...but for not being a specific breed of Christian. Fortunately, they were smart enough to extend this freedom to religions other than Christianity as well. I agree it’s arguable as well. How successfully arguable is another thing. And agree that it was a much more Enlightenment-era Deist Christianity then even mainstream Protestant Christianity in late 19th/early 21st Century America. If we were to try to mimic the religious beliefs of the Founding Father today, I would argue that practice would more closely resemble the Unitarians or Congregationalists. But that’s just my unauthorized armchair historian opinion. One of my favorite writings on the subject by one of the Founding Fathers: President George Washington’s letter to the Jews of Rhode Island, in which he wrote about separation of church and state: “The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for giving to Mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. “It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection, should demean themselves as good citizens." I speculate that a significantly under-recognized reason why the US Constitution -- an amazing document im-ever-ho -- has been so successful for so long (relative to other governance documents) is its foundation in civil (not religious) law and the wisdom of the drafters to suspend their own egos and adapt/adopt/borrow from multiple sources. Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
