kelpdiver 2 #51 March 23, 2009 Quote camp david was between the us and iran? You said that if the US wanted to make the situation go away, it could, and the results would be virtually instant. Which is of course complete bullshit, as shown by the lasting results when Carter, probably the most qualified of the recent Presidents to assist in this region, got a short lived peace. How well did the Arabs take to this solution? They killed their own guy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #52 March 23, 2009 QuoteIsrael Defense Forces soldiers did not consider medical teams as entitled to receive the special protection granted to them within the framework of their duties during Operation Cast Lead in Gaza, according to a new report by Physicians for Human Rights due to be released on Monday. PHR quoted figures issued by the World Health Organization, which showed 16 Palestinian medical personnel were killed by Israeli fire during the offensive and that 25 were wounded while performing their duties. It said Israel attacked 34 medical care facilities, including eight hospitals. Advertisement The report also raises questions of whether IDF soldiers violated the IDF's own ethical code and basic humanitarian values, when they prevented treatment and the evacuation of the wounded and fired at emergency rescue teams and Palestinian medical facilities. Physicians for Human Rights-Israel (PHR) described alleged incidents that "reveal that not only did the [military] not evacuate besieged and wounded families, it also prevented Palestinian [medical] teams from reaching the wounded." PHR's report followed accusations by other human rights groups and Palestinians that Israel's actions during the 22-day offensive in the Palestinian coastal enclave, controlled by the Islamist Hamas group, warranted war crimes investigations. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1073191.htmlstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #53 March 23, 2009 QuoteQuote camp david was between the us and iran? You said that if the US wanted to make the situation go away, it could, and the results would be virtually instant. Which is of course complete bullshit, as shown by the lasting results when Carter, probably the most qualified of the recent Presidents to assist in this region, got a short lived peace. How well did the Arabs take to this solution? They killed their own guy. 'they' also killed rabin and kennedy didn't they?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #54 March 23, 2009 QuoteI'd be interested in hearing what our Israeli friends on DZ.com have to say about this news. here you go... - if any unethical behaviour by troops took place, it is wrong and I (like most Isralis) strongly condemn it. - as far as I know, the military police and JAG have launched an investigation. such things are not acceptable by the Israeli public and will not be tolarated. - there is a HUGE difference between shooting at someone who "didn't understand and went to the left, but they forgot to tell the sharpshooter" and cold blooded murder. operational mistakes like that happen all the time and in many cases the result is friendly fire (which happen a LOT). - QuoteThe lives of Palestinians, let's say, is something very, very less important than the lives of our soldiers. so? isn't your family's life more important to you than someone else's? I'm not saying you should go kill people, but if its you or them, then yes, I value the lives of my family/friends/countrymen more than those of my enemy. if you claim you would rather die than kill your enemy, you lie. and when your enemy packs explosives into schools and use civilians as shields, you sometimes hurt innocent people. QuoteYet here we are with an official policy of murdering civillians oh really? OFFICIAL policy of murdering civilians, nothing less? i'm not saying there are no cases of light fingers on the trigger. when in a hostile environment, scared to death, you sometimes shoot first and ask later. this is not an official "lets shoot everybody because they don't mean anything" policy. I will put the IDF's moral and ethics up against anyone's anyday. there is a serious debate in Israel about this right now. I just wonder what would have happened to a palestinian going against Hamas' actions... oh wait, he'd be blindfolded and thrown off a rooftop... O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #55 March 23, 2009 Quoteand when your enemy packs explosives into schools and use civilians as shields, you sometimes hurt innocent people. and in return you 'sometimes' bomb hospitals and ambulances and murder/kill hundreds of children. (note how innocent people are only 'hurt')stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #56 March 23, 2009 Quote Quote I'd be interested in hearing what our Israeli friends on DZ.com have to say about this news. here you go... - if any unethical behaviour by troops took place, it is wrong and I (like most Isralis) strongly condemn it. just to say (after my last post), welcome to the thread stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #57 March 23, 2009 Thanks for your response. As for... I just wonder what would have happened to a palestinian going against Hamas' actions... oh wait, he'd be blindfolded and thrown off a rooftop... Quote Hamas isn't known for its delicate treatment of people but we're not talking about Hamas here are we, we are talking about the IDF. As for the turn left or right thing, the bottom line is that it was a woman and her little girl that a sniper killed. And what about the old woman walking along the road? 100 metres away from the house where she was shot from. There can be no defending the indefencable. if any unethical behaviour by troops took place, it is wrong and I (like most Isralis) strongly condemn it. Quote Its good to hear you say that. Its ironic that only a few days ago you were saying.. *** I'd hate to be in a position where I need to defend my values and faith because of some assholes who use it in such a wayWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #58 March 23, 2009 QuoteAs for the turn left or right thing, the bottom line is that it was a woman and her little girl that a sniper killed. its still isn't a "policy of killing innocent people". if the sniper was to defend a "clear zone" and someone else send them there, its a major fuckup, not murder. just like the incident which resulted in a tank firing into a house where an IDF squad was hiding, killing several soldiers. btw, I've heard that someone checked with the sniper and he said he actually just fired a warning shot and did not kill them. but I don't know if its verified. QuoteI'd hate to be in a position where I need to defend my values and faith because of some assholes who use it in such a way and I still do. if something like that happened, then it should not have happened and the investigation will make sure of that. but in no way or form was anything an "official policy of murder" like said before. you will not find any mainstream israeli leader who would say it is acceptable. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #59 March 23, 2009 Quote - as far as I know, the military police and JAG have launched an investigation. such things are not acceptable by the Israeli public and will not be tolarated. I know that much of the Israeli public does not approve. Most of my arguments WRT this conflict come from Israeli sources. The problem that many of us have with internal investigations is that they tend to be a bit biased in their results. And in the case of this one, the Military Advocate General order the initiation of an investigation only after Haaretz printed the story, which was three weeks after the information was made available to the Chief of the General Staff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #60 March 23, 2009 Quote you will not find any mainstream israeli leader who would say it is acceptable. And you probably won't. Similarly, our 43rd President said that torture was unacceptable AND stated unequivocally that we didn't do it. Taking the word of an official, especially one who may be directly involved in an infraction/crime, is not necessarily the best option if you're interested in the full story. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #61 March 23, 2009 Giving civillians five minutes to 'run away' and then going room to room building to building killing civillians is murder its very simple.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #62 March 23, 2009 QuoteTaking the word of an official, especially one who may be directly involved in an infraction/crime, is not necessarily the best option true. that why there are courts and official investigators (whether internal or external), like in any other democracy. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #63 March 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteTaking the word of an official, especially one who may be directly involved in an infraction/crime, is not necessarily the best option true. that why there are courts and official investigators (whether internal or external), like in any other democracy. That's the theory. In practice however, "justice" isn't always well served. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #64 March 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteTaking the word of an official, especially one who may be directly involved in an infraction/crime, is not necessarily the best option true. that why there are courts and official investigators (whether internal or external), like in any other democracy. That's the theory. In practice however, "justice" isn't always well served. So it's absolutely fact that mass murder was committed, but just a theory that investigations are taking place? Couldn't it be equally possible that the opposite is true? -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #65 March 23, 2009 Quote So it's absolutely fact that mass murder was committed, but just a theory that investigations are taking place? Couldn't it be equally possible that the opposite is true? in all likelihood it's both. My point is that an investigation doesn't mean that justice will be served, especially an internal investigation. Look at our own government for example if you prefer to take Israel out of the picture. Third parties can often do a better job of investigating, but that's no guarantee either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #66 March 23, 2009 Quoteisrael is not at war with islam - duh! and now you're calling a poster a 'hater' and a 'jew killer' Uh..... Last time I checked the Palastinians of Hamas and Hezbollah are praqctising JIHAD..... sounds like a war with Isalm to most of us. We can always count on the Brits to show how BUTT HURT they still are from the 1940's when it comes to Israel and the Jews.... so if you dont like being characterized that way DONT DO IT. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #67 March 23, 2009 Quote Quote israel is not at war with islam - duh! and now you're calling a poster a 'hater' and a 'jew killer' Uh..... Last time I checked the Palastinians of Hamas and Hezbollah are praqctising JIHAD..... sounds like a war with Isalm to most of us. We can always count on the Brits to show how BUTT HURT they still are from the 1940's when it comes to Israel and the Jews.... so if you dont like being characterized that way DONT DO IT. 'we', 'us' - who are 'you'? (please don't hurt my butt any more stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #68 March 23, 2009 QuoteQuote So it's absolutely fact that mass murder was committed, but just a theory that investigations are taking place? Couldn't it be equally possible that the opposite is true? in all likelihood it's both. My point is that an investigation doesn't mean that justice will be served, especially an internal investigation. Look at our own government for example if you prefer to take Israel out of the picture. Third parties can often do a better job of investigating, but that's no guarantee either. That may very well be true. My point is that this thread has gone from accusations of state sponsored mass murder to possibilities of justice being served. The gross assumptions and accusations undermine the entire notion of an investigation and justice. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #69 March 23, 2009 QuoteThat may very well be true. My point is that this thread has gone from accusations of state sponsored mass murder to possibilities of justice being served. The gross assumptions and accusations undermine the entire notion of an investigation and justice. do the israelis have nuclear capabilities?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #70 March 23, 2009 Quotedo the israelis have nuclear capabilities? can you do anything beside quoting every news scrap that has "Israel" in it and replying to your own posts? this is related how exactly? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #71 March 23, 2009 i want to see if you can keep a state secret stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #72 March 23, 2009 QuoteQuotedo the israelis have nuclear capabilities? can you do anything beside quoting every news scrap that has "Israel" in it and replying to your own posts? this is related how exactly? Every news scrap from certain sources, you mean. Don't bother trying to keep up with the random subject shifts - it could be a full time job. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #73 March 23, 2009 it's a simple question - does israel have nuclear warheads?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #74 March 23, 2009 Quotei want to see if you can keep a state secret sure, its no secret. I have 2 in my car. since you seem to like wikipedia so much, here is one for you (feel free to copy&paste and start a thread...) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #75 March 23, 2009 QuoteQuotei want to see if you can keep a state secret sure, its no secret. I have 2 in my car. The purchase limit is one every 30 days, right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
