dreamdancer 0 #76 March 23, 2009 QuoteQuotei want to see if you can keep a state secret sure, its no secret. the israeli government still denies their existence.stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #77 March 23, 2009 Quote the israeli government still denies their existence. It neither confirms nor denies the existence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tonyhays 86 #78 March 23, 2009 Quotewhere's the funny bit? That Hamas will ever recognize Israel!! Their original charter calls for the destruction of Israel on the way to establishing a Palestinian state.“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #79 March 23, 2009 QuoteQuotewhere's the funny bit? That Hamas will ever recognize Israel!! Their original charter calls for the destruction of Israel on the way to establishing a Palestinian state. you'll be able to provide more details on this 'call for destruction' then? do you think iran has any influence on hamas?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tonyhays 86 #80 March 23, 2009 http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm A particular chilling quote.... The implication is clear: Allah promised that the Jews will be murdered, and the Hamas "aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take." As for Iran involvement...http://www.redorbit.com/news/international/285945/iran_calls_for_destruction_of_israel/ The head of state, one that could be a nuclear power soon, calls for your complete destruction. I wouldn't be giving up my nukes anytime soon.“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #81 March 23, 2009 Quotehttp://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm A particular chilling quote.... The implication is clear: Allah promised that the Jews will be murdered, and the Hamas "aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take." As for Iran involvement...http://www.redorbit.com/news/international/285945/iran_calls_for_destruction_of_israel/ The head of state, one that could be a nuclear power soon, calls for your complete destruction. I wouldn't be giving up my nukes anytime soon. what do you think of this viewpoint... QuoteThe charter's current status within Hamas is unclear. For example, Mousa Abu Marzook, the deputy of the political bureau of Hamas, in 2007 described the charter as "an essentially revolutionary document born of the intolerable conditions under occupation" in 1988. Marzook added that "if every state or movement were to be judged solely by its foundational, revolutionary documents . . ., there would be a good deal to answer for on all sides," noting as an example that the U.S. Constitution engaged in codifying slavery. Senior British Diplomat and former British Ambassador to the UN Sir Jeremy Greenstock stated in early 2009 that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006". Greenstock also stated that Hamas is not intent on the destruction of Israel. Finally, according to investigations by Israeli daily "The Jerusalem Post" in 2006, representatives of Hamas in Beirut, Damascus and London had intended to rewrite the charter. Azzam Tamimi, Director of the London-based Institute of Islamic Political Thinking, told the newspaper in a telephone interview: "All the madness from the Protocols of Elders of Zion and the conspiracy theory must be eradicated. It should never have been there in the first place". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamasstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #82 March 23, 2009 When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #83 March 23, 2009 Quote That may very well be true. My point is that this thread has gone from accusations of state sponsored mass murder to possibilities of justice being served. The gross assumptions and accusations undermine the entire notion of an investigation and justice. I don't see them as being unrelated. Shouts of genocide etc. are overstatements of what has been historically a (documented) history of "loose rules of engagement". What is different this time is that it's actually being bantered about in the mainstream press and that people are actually seriously considering holding Israel accountable for their actions. Which leads us to the "justice" aspect of the conversation. We (the US) have well stated policies with regard to what we find acceptable and what we don't. For the most part we hold a hard line on the Palestinians and a very soft line on the Israelis. When the Palestinians commit a war crime we do things such as enable a humanitarian crisis e.g., the blockade. When Israel commits war crimes we basically say "hey, we don't like that" while simultaneously cutting them a check or sending them another shipment of cluster bombs (while on our way to the UN to veto the coming resolution against Israel). Whether you're a state sponsor of terror or a fraudulent banker, connections has its benefits with regard to the meting out of justice. I'm hoping that in both cases that we're going to start putting our justice where our rhetoric is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #84 March 23, 2009 Quote what do you think of this viewpoint... Very little - if they don't want to be judged on their current declarations, they can say so in a clear manner. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #85 March 23, 2009 Quotepeople are actually seriously considering holding Israel accountable for their actions. actions that show much more restraint than most countries would when faced with endless terror attacks and missile fire on civilian towns. much more restraint than their "brothers" the Egyptians and especially the Jordanians showed them in the past. QuoteWhen Israel commits war crimes war crimes by your definition which do not hold when civilian buildings and people play an active role in the fightting. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #86 March 23, 2009 QuoteQuote what do you think of this viewpoint... Very little - if they don't want to be judged on their current declarations, they can say so in a clear manner. what do you think of israel's initial support for hamas as a counter to fatah? do you think this was wise?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #87 March 23, 2009 Quote You is what you is.....Face it they fucked your lot 60 years ago.. and you are still all sore there. Get over it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #88 March 24, 2009 QuoteQuotepeople are actually seriously considering holding Israel accountable for their actions. actions that show much more restraint than most countries would when faced with endless terror attacks and missile fire on civilian towns. much more restraint than their "brothers" the Egyptians and especially the Jordanians showed them in the past. QuoteWhen Israel commits war crimes war crimes by your definition which do not hold when civilian buildings and people play an active role in the fightting. It's almost as though we've never discussed this topic here. But even in the light of even more specifics with regard to the IDF's culpability, the song remains the same. I really don't know what more to say that hasn't been said numerous times, other than that I continue to hope that the internet will continue to make more and more accurate information available to more and more people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tonyhays 86 #89 March 24, 2009 Quote Very little - if they don't want to be judged on their current declarations, they can say so in a clear manner. +1“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #90 March 24, 2009 QuoteI continue to hope that the internet will continue to make more and more accurate information available to more and more people. I think your assuming that all people make their decisions, or at least base their view points on facts and information. I wish we lived in that world. As you can see we have people excusing hundreds of murders even a mother and a child. If anyone couldn't understand why the Israelis are hated by the Palestinians i hope they understand now. Fuck all hypocrites.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #91 March 24, 2009 QuoteQuoteI continue to hope that the internet will continue to make more and more accurate information available to more and more people. I think your assuming that all people make their decisions, or at least base their view points on facts and information. I wish we lived in that world. The internet makes information more readily available, but the increase in facts is offset by the increase in propaganda. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #92 March 24, 2009 QuoteIt's almost as though we've never discussed this topic here. we did many times. and as long as you keep accusing Israel in war crimes and an official policy of killing civilians I will prove to you that you are wrong. I very rarely innitiate these threads... maybe I should, like when a couple of days ago a car bomb was (luckily) defused in a shopping mall in Haifa. I'm sure that didn't make it to your newspaper... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #93 March 24, 2009 Quote and as long as you keep accusing Israel in war crimes and an official policy of killing civilians I will prove to you that you are wrong. any such policy would be a state secret and would be very hard to prove until well after the fact. we know that israel denies it has nuclear weapons (but it has). (and many people thought that the second world war death camps were only 'work' camps until the very end).stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #94 March 24, 2009 bit of historical preparation... QuoteIsrael has a dilemma, a defense source said yesterday. "For two months until this week Israel had to drag the Annapolis conference around like a ball and chain. This prevented it from launching a big operation in the Gaza Strip. Now the ball has been taken off, only to be replaced by another - the peace negotiations due to be resumed with the Palestinians." Defense officials said yesterday a big military operation in the Gaza Strip was inevitable. The circumstances will determine the timing, one of them said. Fatal rocket fire, a major terror attack or an abduction could prompt the operation and create the appropriate public opinion. Meanwhile, Israel will make do with targeting Qassam launchers and bomb planters approaching the border fence, the source said. Before going to Annapolis, Defense Minister Ehud Barak said that every passing day brought Israel closer to a major operation in the Gaza Strip. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/929702.html stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #95 March 24, 2009 and today... QuoteTime to believe Gaza war crimes allegations Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi has difficulty believing the soldiers' testimonies that they intentionally harmed Palestinian civilians, because the Israel Defense Forces is a moral army, he said on Sunday. On the other hand, he believes the soldiers because they "have no reason to lie." Then again, Ashkenazi is convinced that if what they said is true, these are isolated incidents. Ashkenazi reacted like most Israelis - as though the reports, including those in Haaretz and Maariv, were the first about the Gaza offensive that were issued by someone other than the military spokesman or the military reporters, who rely on him for their information. But ample information was available from Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch reports, based on statements collected from hundreds of people in the Gaza Strip in January and February. Ashkenazi, like other Israelis, could have read the Red Cross' protest during the offensive, that the IDF prevented medical teams from reaching wounded Palestinians by shooting at them. He or his aides could have gone to the Web site set up by Israeli human rights organizations, which was full of reports and testimonies. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1073469.htmlstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #96 March 24, 2009 Quote Quote You is what you is.....Face it they fucked your lot 60 years ago.. and you are still all sore there. Get over it Its barely on the radar of any Brit. You really shouldn't assume to know what I think or feel especially as you are way off track. So if you have finished the lame attempt to crank me maybe you'd like to get back on topicWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #97 March 24, 2009 QuoteQuoteIt's almost as though we've never discussed this topic here. we did many times. and as long as you keep accusing Israel in war crimes and an official policy of killing civilians I will prove to you that you are wrong. I very rarely innitiate these threads... maybe I should, like when a couple of days ago a car bomb was (luckily) defused in a shopping mall in Haifa. I'm sure that didn't make it to your newspaper... Its not news that Palastinian groups kill Israeli civillians. It is news that IDF soldiers in their own words describ their actions as murder and tell how they slotted civvies in Gazza.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #98 March 24, 2009 QuoteIts not news that Palastinian groups kill Israeli civillians its very news to those who end up dead... and it is the cause for Israel's operations including the operation in Gaza. QuoteIt is news that IDF soldiers in their own words describ their actions yes, it is news. but whether it actually happened (as opposed to hearsay and rumors) or whether these were isolated events or a bigger problem is something that should (and is) be investigated. and not by the blood seeking media (including the Israeli) which is quick to draw a conclusion that will make a better headline. I'm not saying nothing wrong happened. I am saying that there is no "let's kill civilians" policy (or intent) and that in a desnely populated warzone you sometimes shoot first and ask later. O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #99 March 24, 2009 Quote we did many times. and as long as you keep accusing Israel in war crimes and an official policy of killing civilians I will prove to you that you are wrong. The war crimes argument is pretty solid. Getting them prosecuted is another thing entirely. And you have not proven me wrong on my assertions. You change my assertions and then try to debunk your version. The IDF has a history of loose rules of engagement and has a poor (not completely absent, but "poor") record of accountability with regard to infractions that extend beyond those loose rules. And many, not all, Israelis (and Americans) have a tendency to look the other way at crimes committed by the IDF and the settlers. Palestinians are guilty of the same. My problem is that not only do we only hold one side accountable, we are often enablers of the violence. Quote I very rarely innitiate these threads... maybe I should, like when a couple of days ago a car bomb was (luckily) defused in a shopping mall in Haifa. I'm sure that didn't make it to your newspaper... You're right, but we also didn't hear about the IDF shooting an American in the head with a tear gas canister eleven days ago. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #100 March 24, 2009 QuoteThe war crimes argument is pretty solid again, in your eyes. I don't see them as solid at all. on the contrary, I think they are anything but solid considering the nature of the conflict and the reason of why civilians are involved. QuoteAnd you have not proven me wrong on my assertions I do every time you say the IDF kills people intentionally or commits war crimes when civilians get hurt, forgetting to mention that these civilians were taking an active role in the fighting (whether by choice or Hamas using them) QuoteYou're right, but we also didn't hear about the IDF shooting an American in the head with a tear gas canister eleven days ago obviously, you did... you do realize that you can't "shoot" anybody with a tear gas canister as these things are neither accurate nor targeted for a direct hit, right? he was taking part in a riot and got hit by a tear gas canister which is a legitimate anti-riot measure. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
