Israel troops admit Gaza abuses

[pbwing 0]

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Whats you're real thoughts on the subject of the motivation of suicide bombers?

Let me take a shot....

I read this recently and thought it fit in nicely with this discussion.

"Without exception, the suicide bombers have lived their lives on the receiving end of a system designed to trample their rights and crush every hope of a brighter future… Confronted by a seemingly endless combination of death, destruction, restriction, harassment and humiliation, they conclude that ending life as a bomb - rather than having it ended by a bullet - endows them, even if only in their final moments, with a semblance of purpose and control previously considered out of reach."

Coincidentally, from the same article

- 47% of the suicide bombers have an academic education and an additional 29% have at least a high school education.
- 83% of the suicide bombers are single.
- 64% of the suicide bombers are between the ages 18-23; most of the rest are under 30.
- 68% of the suicide bombers have come from the Gaza Strip.

[dreamdancer 0]

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Israel's military fired white phosphorus over crowded areas of Gaza repeatedly and indiscriminately in its three-week war, killing and injuring civilians and committing war crimes, Human Rights Watch said today.

In a 71-page report, the rights group said the repeated use of air-burst white phosphorus artillery shells in populated areas of Gaza was not incidental or accidental, but revealed "a pattern or policy of conduct".

It said the Israeli military used white phosphorus in a "deliberate or reckless" way. The report says:

• Israel was aware of the dangers of white phosphorus.

• It chose not to use alternative and less dangerous smoke shells.

• In one case, Israel even ignored repeated warnings from UN staff before hitting the main UN compound in Gaza with white phosphorus shells on 15 January.

"In Gaza, the Israeli military didn't just use white phosphorus in open areas as a screen for its troops," said Fred Abrahams, a senior Human Rights Watch researcher. "It fired white phosphorus repeatedly over densely populated areas, even when its troops weren't in the area and safe smoke shells were available. As a result, civilians needlessly suffered and died." He said senior commanders should be held to account.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/25/israel-white-phosphorus-gaza

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Andy9o8 2]

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Stop and think about it for a moment. No really, just stop before you answer and think. Do you really believe that a person would blow themselves to bits for the promise of a load of virgins? That is nonsense plain and simple. Too believe that would mean not only knowing anything about Muslims but also knowing nothing about men either.

True enough.
Now then - 72 hot, slutty chicks who know what they're doing? That'd be a whole 'nuther story.

[FallingOsh 0]

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Stop and think about it for a moment. No really, just stop before you answer and think. Do you really believe that a person would blow themselves to bits for the promise of a load of virgins? That is nonsense plain and simple. Too believe that would mean not only knowing anything about Muslims but also knowing nothing about men either.

True enough.
Now then - 72 hot, slutty chicks who know what they're doing? That'd be a whole 'nuther story.

The promise is virgins. Not female virgins.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[Krip 2]

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Stop and think about it for a moment. No really, just stop before you answer and think. Do you really believe that a person would blow themselves to bits for the promise of a load of virgins? That is nonsense plain and simple. Too believe that would mean not only knowing anything about Muslims but also knowing nothing about men either.

True enough.
Now then - 72 hot, slutty chicks who know what they're doing? That'd be a whole 'nuther story.

The promise is virgins. Not female virgins.

I was wondering where all these vigins were coming from Death is forever virgins aren't. I'm thinking the 72 virgin thing is metafore for Heaven.


I also decline the to donate 10% of my income to the church so I'll be with the 's in heaven.

[Amazon 7]

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As long as a whole class of young men think with the head at the end of their dicks....nothing is going to change...The area needs far more thinking with the BIG head on top of the shoulders... not the little one.. that wants the 72 virgins.

You seem to be obsessed with dicks, and who gets laid and how often.
I have noticed you seem to excuse a lot what you don’t agree with as people not getting laid enough.

To grossly over simplify a problem that has occurred over decades is a sign of not using ones head.

Hey they are the ones thinking with the little head... that whole 72 virgins thing sounds real interesting to people who think a biolgical body for fucking day and night is "paradise".... so just WHO is is obsessed????

Buehler?????

Buehler?????

[Amazon 7]

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I find the actions of the IDF, The Israeli government, and the people who blindly support them more disgusting then any suicide bomb Hamas has ever done.

OF COURSE... you would. They are good muslims just fighting for the peaceful world Caliphate. Anything justifies the end result.

The majority of Muslims see suicide bombings for what they are, acts of terror banned by the Koran. I find suicide bomings abhorant and totally AGAINST the laws of Islam. Just as in the Bible suicides get a one stop ticket to hell. As do murderers. Suicide bombers are no exception, they are twisted and evil. They are no better or worse than any other murderer whatever their religion.

Thank you for that... I really do appreciate a voice of reason in the wilderness. Far too many seem to be willing to make excuses for those who do not believ e in peace.

[idrankwhat 0]

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The majority of Muslims see suicide bombings for what they are, acts of terror banned by the Koran. I find suicide bomings abhorant and totally AGAINST the laws of Islam. Just as in the Bible suicides get a one stop ticket to hell. As do murderers. Suicide bombers are no exception, they are twisted and evil. They are no better or worse than any other murderer whatever their religion.

Thank you for that... I really do appreciate a voice of reason in the wilderness. Far too many seem to be willing to make excuses for those who do not believ e in peace.

And thank YOU Jeanne, for acknowledging the difference between a religion and its fanatical fringe element.

[Amazon 7]

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The majority of Muslims see suicide bombings for what they are, acts of terror banned by the Koran. I find suicide bomings abhorant and totally AGAINST the laws of Islam. Just as in the Bible suicides get a one stop ticket to hell. As do murderers. Suicide bombers are no exception, they are twisted and evil. They are no better or worse than any other murderer whatever their religion.

Thank you for that... I really do appreciate a voice of reason in the wilderness. Far too many seem to be willing to make excuses for those who do not believ e in peace.

And thank YOU Jeanne, for acknowledging the difference between a religion and its fanatical fringe element.

I do recognize that there is a difference.....BUT when I see so many of the so called moderates celebrating in the streets after 9/11 and very rarely if ever denouncing the atrocities being done in their name..... I begin to wonder just how many of them really do want peace.

[idrankwhat 0]

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I do recognize that there is a difference.....BUT when I see so many of the so called moderates celebrating in the streets after 9/11 and very rarely if ever denouncing the atrocities being done in their name..... I begin to wonder just how many of them really do want peace.

I understand the point you're trying to make but what's the chance that the news is going to show you what you wish to see in this instance? If given the choice to tell the story about 100,000 Muslims praying peacefully in their homes or Mosques or the 10 who are burning American flags and dancing in the street, which do you think the media will choose?

The appeal to the rubbernecker will win out every time.

[falxori 0]

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If given the choice to tell the story about 100,000 Muslims praying peacefully in their homes or Mosques or the 10 who are burning American flags and dancing in the street, which do you think the media will choose?

they'll probably use the same logic when given the choice between showing the story of 100,000 armed terrorists who got hit and the the sad story of the 10 civilians who got hit by accident...

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[idrankwhat 0]

Thanks, I was looking for a reason to get back on topic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRuzEs9Y5KE

[falxori 0]

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Thanks, I was looking for a reason to get back on topic

you're welcome.
in case you forgot, here is a video of Hamas terrorist firing rockets from a UN schoolyard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmXXUOs27lI
and another of a zoo and school booby trapped:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHhs9ihSmbU

beside giving the IDF the GPS coordinates of their buildings, they should have prevented Hamas from using them. when fired upon, any building is a legitimate target.


beside the fact that seeing civilians getting hurt is never nice, the only "evidence" this video shows is some guy's opinion.
there was a doctor (I think he was French or Italian) who looked into the wounds in Gaza and said he saw no evidence of any Phosphorous used.

This is ,at best, a very opinionated reporter trying to back up his already established opinion with any shred of evidence he can find.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Darius11 12]

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shred of evidence he can find

shred? yea ok every one is making shit up!the Christians, Muslims, Israelis, and the international community. Its just the IDF that tells the truth.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[dreamdancer 0]

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There is a discrepancy between the official military response, of denial and horrified disapproval, the testimonies of the Rabin pre-military preparatory course graduates, and the response to those reports by key officers, unwilling to be identified.

"What did you think would happen?" a senior officer wondered this week. "We sent 10,000 troops into Gaza, more than 200 tanks and armored personnel carriers, 100 bulldozers. What were 100 bulldozers going to do there?"

The IDF estimates that approximately 2,000 houses were destroyed in the fighting. The Palestinians say the figure is twice that. IDF officers, who were not surprised by the testimonies, recalled that during the Al-Aqsa Intifada, military courts convicted soldiers for killing civilians, including the British peace activist Tom Hurndall, who was killed in Gaza in 2003.

Until the soldiers' testimonies were published, the IDF Spokesman's Office had been highly successful in promoting its version of events. The international media may not have bought it, but the army managed to sell the Israeli public an almost impossible package: We were victorious in Gaza, we suffered minimal casualties and we also came out of there smelling like roses.

On Monday, during a visit to an IDF induction center, the chief of staff addressed this matter. His statements ("I do not believe this happened") raised a few eyebrows in the defense establishment. Lt. Gen. Ashkenazi is also the commander of the investigators in the IDF criminal investigation division (CID), who are coordinating the two investigations that were launched in the wake of the soldiers' testimonies. Even when we are told time and again that "the IDF is the world's most ethical army" (copyright: Shaul Mofaz), we are not obliged to answer "Amen."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1074218.html

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Skyrad 0]

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Death is forever virgins aren't.

That would make a great bumper sticker

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[shropshire 0]

There's no such thing as a Great Bumper Sticker

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Skyrad 0]

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The majority of Muslims see suicide bombings for what they are, acts of terror banned by the Koran. I find suicide bomings abhorant and totally AGAINST the laws of Islam. Just as in the Bible suicides get a one stop ticket to hell. As do murderers. Suicide bombers are no exception, they are twisted and evil. They are no better or worse than any other murderer whatever their religion.

Thank you for that... I really do appreciate a voice of reason in the wilderness. Far too many seem to be willing to make excuses for those who do not believ e in peace.

And thank YOU Jeanne, for acknowledging the difference between a religion and its fanatical fringe element.

I do recognize that there is a difference.....BUT when I see so many of the so called moderates celebrating in the streets after 9/11 and very rarely if ever denouncing the atrocities being done in their name..... I begin to wonder just how many of them really do want peace.

Yes there were some people dancing in the street I remember those images, they were Hamas supporters that I remember watching on tv. I can imagine that in the anger that was felt at the time in the US those images would burn themselves into the psyche of anyone viewing them. I don't know how much if any of the rest of the worlds response was shown over there but one thing that I remember being impressed with was the scale and scope of grieving in Muslim countries. Rather than people dancing in the streets I there were mass shows of public sympathy, people holding candle lit vigils throughout the night even in Iran. Also the response by leaders in the Arab world who one might have expected to fully support the atrocities.

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Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, whom the United States has accused of backing
international terrorism, called the attacks "horrifying" and urged Muslim aid groups to
offer help "regardless of political considerations or differences between America and the
peoples of the world." Gadhafi said, "Irrespective of the conflict with America it is a human
duty to show sympathy with the American people, and be with them at these horrifying
and awesome events which are bound to awaken human conscience."

Syrian President Bashar Assad sent a condolence message to the White House, calling
for "world cooperation to eradicate all kinds of terrorism."

Iranian President Mohammad Khatami, a moderate who is struggling for power against
the country's hard-line Islamic leaders, expressed "deep regret and sympathy with the
victims" and said "it is an international duty to try to undermine terrorism."

President Gen. Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan, one of three countries then recognizing
the Taliban's government (Sept. 11), condemned the attacks and called for cooperation to
combat the "modern-day evil" of terrorism.

Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak called the attacks in New York and Washington "horrific"
and added in a televised statement: "Egypt firmly and strongly condemns such attacks
on civilians and soldiers that led to the deaths of a large number of innocent victims."

Palestinian President Yasser Arafat said "I send my condolences, and
the condolences of the Palestinian people to American President Bush and
his government and to the American people for this terrible act," Arafat told
reporters in Gaza. "We completely condemn this serious operation. . . . We
were completely shocked . . . It's unbelievable, unbelievable, unbelievable,"
says a visibly upset Arafat.

Sheik Ahmed Yassin, whose Islamic militant
Hamas group has carried out a series of suicide bombings in Israel, said he
was not interested in exporting such attacks to the United States. "We are not ready to move our struggle outside the occupied Palestinian land. We
are not prepared to open international fronts, however much we criticize
the unfair American position," Yassin told reporters in Gaza City.

While you remember the few who danced try and remember the millions who grieved with America. The majority of whom couldn't believe that Muslims could do such a thing as it goes against all the laws of Islam. All religions have extreamists but that desn't mean that all followers of a religion have any sympathy for those who claim to murder in Gods name.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[idrankwhat 0]

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This is ,at best, a very opinionated reporter trying to back up his already established opinion with any shred of evidence he can find.

I can't change how you perceive things like this. I see video of the IDF using WP, not as a smokescreen on the battlefield (which is considered acceptable) but as a very crudely targeted weapon over one of the most densely populated places on the planet. With the weaponry we've given the IDF there is absolutely no reason for them to use white phosphorus, fleschettes, or cluster bombs in any of their campaigns. Period.

[Krip 2]

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This is ,at best, a very opinionated reporter trying to back up his already established opinion with any shred of evidence he can find.

I can't change how you perceive things like this. I see video of the IDF using WP, not as a smokescreen on the battlefield (which is considered acceptable) but as a very crudely targeted weapon over one of the most densely populated places on the planet. With the weaponry we've given the IDF there is absolutely no reason for them to use white phosphorus, fleschettes, or cluster bombs in any of their campaigns. Period.

They are used as a terror weapon period. and will be continued to be used as long as we supply these types of "defensive weapons" to our alllies.

video and the free press is a bitch.

One Jump Wonder

[dreamdancer 0]

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Rabbis - who have usurped the role of the army's education officers - give pre-battle speeches in which they encourage combat soldiers to kill and destroy in the name of an angry and jealous God. And female soldiers, whose numbers on the battlefield have also risen sharply, are deemed to be a distraction that should be removed from sight.

Israeli society, including the IDF, has undergone enormous changes since the founding of the state. The official melting pot, with its strictly secular character, has given way to softened multiculturalism. Extremist elements who seek to impose a racist, chauvinist, separatist and dangerous agenda on the army and the state exploit this shift. The defense minister must stop this destructive process, revise the IDF's regulations and redefine the army as an institution belonging to the entire society.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1074563.html

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[idrankwhat 0]

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They are used as a terror weapon period. and will be continued to be used as long as we supply these types of "defensive weapons" to our alllies.

video and the free press is a bitch.

Ori does have a valid point, that launching rockets from a site like the school grounds, is problematic. And I don't know what people can do about individuals who run onto their property, fire off a few rounds, and then flee the scene within a few minutes. Where he and I differ is on the response. It's an issue to that needs to be dealt with but coming back the next day and bombing that site in the daylight, hours(days?) later and thrashing it with non-discriminate weaponry, is not a responsible response. It's an example of collective punishment and therefore, a war crime.
Video and free press are only a problem to those who can't stand scrutiny.

edited to add: Israel's response is answering a war crime with a war crime. Blame needs to be assigned appropriately and honestly if the scrutiny is to be productive.

[Amazon 7]

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If given the choice to tell the story about 100,000 Muslims praying peacefully in their homes or Mosques or the 10 who are burning American flags and dancing in the street, which do you think the media will choose?

they'll probably use the same logic when given the choice between showing the story of 100,000 armed terrorists who got hit and the the sad story of the 10 civilians who got hit by accident...

SOME Americans KNOW who the enemy is..... obviously there are some who do not

[idrankwhat 0]

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SOME Americans KNOW who the enemy is..... obviously there are some who do not

"Ignorance" is the enemy. The more people know, and this applies to everything (with the possible exception of the ingredients in chorizo) the better off we'll all be.

[tbrown 26]

I'm sure there were some horrific abuses committed by Israeli soldiers. There are horrific abuses committed by combatants of all sides in any conflict.

As the old sixties poster said, "War is not healthy for children and other living things".

This is not to excuse atrocities, or those who commit them. There is a moral responsibility to investigate and prosecute these cases and to punish the perpetrators, and Israel should do that.

But this is what happens when one side, any side, launches war upon its neighbors. When Hamass continues to launch rockets into civilian Israeli towns, day after day, they have to expect that Israel will re-act. What I'm saying is that when ANY side leads its people into war, they have to be ready for the horrific consequences it can bring onto their own people. Hamass knew what its actions would bring. They knew Israel would react, that there would be war. And they knew that there woukld inevitably be atrocities committed on both sides. Well it was easy enough for them to cover up their own atrocities, and easier still to lead a bevy of Euro journalists around to show them the real horrors that actually did occur and call it "a Holocaust".

Hamass rejoices in these atrocities against their own people. They orchestrated the whole thing, they rejoice in it, and sadly, I have to say I don't give a flying fuck about it.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !