falxori 0
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Did you watch either one of those videos?
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You're right, but we also didn't hear about the IDF shooting an American in the head with a tear gas canister eleven days ago.
I certainly did, from major newspapers.
The guy was an idiot, one of the trustafarian (would be hippie kid with no job, but plenty of money from parents) assholes who tried to save the (not so) rare oak trees in Berkeley between 2006 and 2008. Their tactics involved tree sitting, throwing shit (literally) at cops, and general stupidity.
As he found out, that sort of moronic behavior has greater risks in a warzone compared to the social utopia of Berkeley.
QuoteThe guy was an idiot.
how brave of you to suggest this
QuoteThe activists say the gas canister, of a kind brought into service only four months ago, was labelled in Hebrew "40mm bullet special/long range."
Four Palestinian residents of Ni'lin – including a 10-year-old boy – were killed during demonstrations last year against the barrier, which will divide villagers from 400 acres of their farmland, when it is complete.
Michael Sfard, an Israeli human rights lawyer, who has filed a formal demand for an official investigation, said that of some 120 criminal investigations brought against security force members since the beginning of the intifada, there had only been one conviction – against the Arab-Israeli soldier who shot British peace activist Tom Hurndall dead in Gaza.
Nobody was brought to trial in two other cases involving the deaths of foreign nationals. They were Rachel Corrie, who like Mr Hurndall was an International Solidarity Movement volunteer. The Israeli military has not accepted responsibility for her death. In the case of British film-maker James Miller, Israeli authorities made a substantial cash payment to his family this year, which came nearly six years after his death.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/fighting-for-life-american-peace-activist-shot-by-israelis-1652604.html
stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding
falxori 0
QuoteDid you watch either one of those videos?
yes i have.
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."
QuoteQuoteThe guy was an idiot.
how brave of you to suggest this
nothing brave about introducing that person's prior history. The guy was (is, actually, I believe he survived) a faux rebel in search of a protest.
Darius11 12
Quoteno, but living in a house that is packed with explosives or that is used to fire rockets from, is.
A sniper shooting a woman and her child? What is the excuse for that.
And as for official policy. If they did not receive an order telling them to shoot and not worry about the consequences then what’s a logical explanation that all these soldiers committed murder and war crimes? Is it an culture issue?
I think culture must have something to do with it. How do you have solders kill woman and children like insects? It is either a general secret policy or a culture that thinks there neighbors are sub-human.
Either way no excuses should ever be made for such behavior.
I find the actions of the IDF, The Israeli government, and the people who blindly support them more disgusting then any suicide bomb Hamas has ever done.
To think a sniper sat there saw a face of a Palestinian woman and her child in his scope and pulled the trigger?
To have a very well trained army, well armed, a state sponsored military act in such a way then to have people stand there and make bull shits excuses.
No words really, none that wouldn’t get me banned.
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain
QuoteQuoteDid you watch either one of those videos?
yes i have.
and read the reports?
QuoteHis aides, had they wanted to, could have found the many questions foreign reporters sent to the IDF spokesman, seeking Ashkenazi's comments before they filed their stories. They had details about families killed by IDF shells and bombs in their homes, about the lethal white phosphorus shells and about the shooting of civilians waving white flags. The had cataloged the massive destruction of plants, orchards, fields, cowsheds and apartment buildings. Much evidence of these outrages was also published inside Haaretz.
The IDF's legal advisers must have read it all. Including, perhaps, that judges who participated in investigation committees into crimes in Darfur, the former Yugoslavia and East Timor want to set up a similar international committee to investigate "all the parties" in the IDF offensive on Gaza. These people have concluded that the events go beyond isolated incidents and that the problem is not only in the soldiers' conduct, but the instructions from the senior military ranks and the ministers in charge.
It's hard to believe that the chief of staff, defense minister and their aides haven't read at least some reports that were not issued by the IDF. But even if they did, why should they let on? After all, they are the ones who gave the orders.
Ashkenazi chose to look surprised, as though he were an ordinary Israeli citizen disregarding reports from parties other than the IDF, because they were based on Palestinian testimonies. Most Israelis "know" Palestinians lie, so their statements should not be taken seriously.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1073469.html
stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding
Darius11 12
Quotenothing brave about introducing that person's prior history. The guy was (is, actually, I believe he survived) a faux rebel in search of a protest.
It must be very convenient to always be right despite the facts.
So the guy liked trees so he should have died. The IDF is right again.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain
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I certainly did, from major newspapers.
The guy was an idiot, one of the trustafarian (would be hippie kid with no job, but plenty of money from parents) assholes who tried to save the (not so) rare oak trees in Berkeley between 2006 and 2008. Their tactics involved tree sitting, throwing shit (literally) at cops, and general stupidity.
As he found out, that sort of moronic behavior has greater risks in a warzone compared to the social utopia of Berkeley.
Well what do you know? I just found a small recent story on ABC and a few other less than obscure sources. Of course if he was a hot young blond chick who disappeared in the Bahamas he might have made it to the front page, but that's fodder for a different thread.
And for the record, the "warzone" as you call it, is a (yet another) town called Nahalin that Israel is trying to steal from its neighbors. And I have a hard time considering him to be a "moron", "asshole" or "idiot" for going to protest against something that is not only morally and legally wrong, counterproductive to our "war on terror" but is also in direct conflict with the stated US/UN policy in the matter.
But thanks for the heads up. I'll have to check the Bay Area newspapers more often.
falxori 0
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I find the actions of the IDF, The Israeli government, and the people who blindly support them more disgusting then any suicide bomb Hamas has ever done.
at least you are honest enough to admit your twisted views.
QuoteA sniper shooting a woman and her child? What is the excuse for that.
- according to the report, the area was a "no pass" zone and the woman didn't understand it. which will make it an operational fuck-up, not murder
- what if the "woman" was packed with explosives, walking towards the soldiers? (happened more than once)
- what if the woman is in her house, but a hamas sniper settles in her bedroom?
- what if Hamas packed the child's school with explosves and used the schoolground to fire rockets?
all of the above was the reality in Gaza. you can't take any civilian casualties out of context.
QuoteTo think a sniper sat there saw a face of a Palestinian woman and her child in his scope and pulled the trigger?
first of all, I've heard that the sniper himslef (unlilke someone who thought he heard something), said that he fired a warning shot and didn't actually hit anyone. so, I don't know how true these accusations are, if any.
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."
falxori 0
I never said he deserved to get hurt but...
you you protest violently, throwing rocks at the police, they will fire tear gas at you (or water jets or rubber bullets or tasers).
they weren't exactly "peaceful passive" protests...
getting hit on the head with a tear gas canister is bad luck.
you you protest violently, throwing rocks at the police, they will fire tear gas at you (or water jets or rubber bullets or tasers).
they weren't exactly "peaceful passive" protests...
getting hit on the head with a tear gas canister is bad luck.
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."
QuoteQuoteDid you watch either one of those videos?
yes i have.
Great, then it's pretty easy to see how you can use fire a tear gas canister directly at someone.
Now how about this one?
http://www.btselem.org/English/Video/200602_Rules_of_Engagement.asp
It's more in line with the subject of this thread.
QuoteI never said he deserved to get hurt but...
you you protest violently, throwing rocks at the police, they will fire tear gas at you (or water jets or rubber bullets or tasers).
they weren't exactly "peaceful passive" protests...
getting hit on the head with a tear gas canister is bad luck.
Maybe. I the reports I read said he wasn't throwing anything but there's no way to tell from what I've seen so far. Hard to say for sure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov3Qs8CjPRw
Darius11 12
QuoteI find the actions of the IDF, The Israeli government, and the people who blindly support them more disgusting then any suicide bomb Hamas has ever done.
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at least you are honest enough to admit your twisted views.
Twisted? As you have stated HAMAS is not a representation of the Palestinians people, but a terrorist group according to you? but the IDF is the Israeli military and representative of the Israelis is it not?
So you cant see which one is worst and I am the one who is twisted. OKAY.
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain
Darius11 12
QuoteQuoteQuoteThe guy was an idiot.
how brave of you to suggest this
nothing brave about introducing that person's prior history. The guy was (is, actually, I believe he survived) a faux rebel in search of a protest.
And the Young girl they ran over with a bulldozer a few years back? Let me guess that bitch thought she could change the world or help some people in need so she deserved it too. It seems as long as the Jews do the killing your ok with who ever they kill.
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain
falxori 0
QuoteAs you have stated HAMAS is not a representation of the Palestinians people, but a terrorist group according to you?
A terrorist group who won the Parliment election and took the government by violence. I dont know if it makes them "representatives". they are in power and their actions count.
Quoteis the Israeli military and representative of the Israelis is it not?
your views of the IDF are more than clear. in your views it is worse than a terror organization targeting civilians (including its own) on purpose. good for you.
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."
Darius11 12
Quoteyour views of the IDF are more than clear. in your views it is worse than a terror organization targeting civilians (including its own) on purpose. good for you.
In my view both of their actions are violent and counter productive. I don’t rejoice when any civilian dies it is all sad.
I just find a trained military that disregards international law more disturbing then a small group.
For Example. I expect Alqueda to have no honor and show no regards for international standards, but I hold the US army to a much higher standard and if they acted like Alqueda I would be extremely disappointed.
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain
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And the Young girl they ran over with a bulldozer a few years back? Let me guess that bitch thought she could change the world or help some people in need so she deserved it too. It seems as long as the Jews do the killing your ok with who ever they kill.
It's not about deserve - it's about putting yourself into a high risk situation. When you do that, you can get hurt, even without malice on the part of the opposition. You rely on them seeing you, being able to do something about it, and not playing the same game of chicken you are.
When the tree sitters took over the Oak Grove at Cal, they were really just a side act to the local homeowners who want to block any development ever happening on the campus. But these delaying actions put a couple thousand athletes and 70,000 fans at risk if an earthquake happened during a game or when people were using the facilities underneath the stadium. Quite selfish. Esp when it is supposedly for trees that are not rare, and not historic. They, like your Palestinian friends, had no reluctance to lie left and right, making up stories about sacred burial grounds and overstating the age of the trees by decades.
End result - it's hard to for me feel much sympathy for the guy when he got hurt. There are far more effective things he could be doing for the trees, or the people of Gaza.
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End result - it's hard to for me feel much sympathy for the guy when he got hurt. There are far more effective things he could be doing for the trees, or the people of Gaza.
End result, it did actually make it to the news here in the States. Probably more people know about the conflict regarding the barrier (although probably not many). Giving a canister driven lobotomy to a West Bank resident most likely would not have made the news at all.
Darius11 12
QuoteIt's not about deserve - it's about putting yourself into a high risk situation.
I agree she did do that so did he, but in her case is there not even a part of you that thinks running her over was at least cruel?
What would you have to see from what source to ever speak out against the IDF? There are always two sides to every story. We each tend to believe the opposite side more often.
But what would make you sit back and criticize the IDF? Is there any thing or do you feel they are justified to use all means possible?
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain
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But what would make you sit back and criticize the IDF? Is there any thing or do you feel they are justified to use all means possible?
So long as Iran, Hamas, and others call for the destruction of Israel, and work towards that end, yeah, I give the IDF a pretty free rein. I think if they want to claim the land they won in wars in the 60s, they can. When you invade a country and lose, you often lose land. Tough shit for you.
I think they show considerable restraint given what they could do (and what historically the superior power has done), against an opposition that is fine with taking compromise but offering none back.
Civilians getting killed in battle is a far cry from official policy of killing civilians, particularly when the enemy uses those civilians as cover, and is banking on the bad PR for Israel when they are killed in the crossfire.
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So long as Iran, Hamas, and others call for the destruction of Israel, and work towards that end, yeah, I give the IDF a pretty free rein.
Using a similarly broad sweeping logic then so long as there are Islamic extremists we should be allowed to invade and kill in as many Muslim countries as we can.
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I think if they want to claim the land they won in wars in the 60s, they can. When you invade a country and lose, you often lose land. Tough shit for you.
Except that it violates the Geneva conventions. You can't take the land and you can't transfer your people on to it. Them's the rules. I'd suggest changing them or if we're going to ignore them (any more than we have) then we should withdraw from them. That of course means that we would be acting completely against the best interests of the US.
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I think they show considerable restraint given what they could do (and what historically the superior power has done), against an opposition that is fine with taking compromise but offering none back.
Civilians getting killed in battle is a far cry from official policy of killing civilians, particularly when the enemy uses those civilians as cover, and is banking on the bad PR for Israel when they are killed in the crossfire.
This is simply an example of "turning a blind eye" to the reality of the situation, ESPECIALLY in the context of the topic of this thread.
no, but living in a house that is packed with explosives or that is used to fire rockets from, is.
being at a riot, throwing rocks at police offices, makes you fair game for tear gas. getting hit straight on by a tear gas canister is bad luck.
there is nothing illegal in using tear gas in riots.
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