Andy9o8 2 #26 March 31, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteI can see what you are getting at. But I then wonder, under which Constitutional provision, is Congress given the power to do this? It's really just the same Constitutional authority that Congress has to pass any legislation. But, under the Constitution, Congress does NOT have the power to pass ANY legislation. That's actually about 98% of its principal function - Congress writes and passes legislation, which then becomes law if/when the President signs it into law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rwieder 0 #27 March 31, 2009 QuoteObama Power! He federalizes banks, insurance companies, and now car companies. What's next? He'll probably start assinating people who talk anti-american smack like you do. I can't for the life of me understand since you have such a strong opinionated voice about EVERYTHING why in the heck didn't you run for political office since you act like you know so damn much. Either join the fight to make the USA a better place to live for us and our heirs or STFU....PLEASE. All you ever do here is carry torches and make inflamatory remarks. How is this helping the situation. If you've got a new way, then i'll be the first in line, but it BETTER work this time.-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #28 March 31, 2009 QuoteBut, under the Constitution, Congress does NOT have the power to pass ANY legislation. Only the legislation they are specifically not allowed to pass according to the Constitution. ALL other legislation is certainly within the description of things Congress is allowed to pass. In fact, that's how it's supposed to work. Certainly not the Judiciary and not the Executive either (although there are some ways around this).quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #29 March 31, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteBut, under the Constitution, Congress does NOT have the power to pass ANY legislation. Only the legislation they are specifically not allowed to pass according to the Constitution. ALL other legislation is certainly within the description of things Congress is allowed to pass. In fact, that's how it's supposed to work. Certainly not the Judiciary and not the Executive either (although there are some ways around this). This is not correct. The Constittution limits the powers of Congress specifically. From the other thread I just started. ***As every schoolchild learns in civics class, the national government is one of limited powers, and any legislation that would exceed those powers is unconstitutional. Rather than attempt to place limits on a grant of absolute power—an endeavor that the Framers recognized as doomed to failure—the original constitutional text goes to the trouble of conveying specific and narrow grants of authority to the federal government. Every act of Congress must fall within some enumerated power or else it is illegitimate, an usurpation of the power retained by the people and their states and a threat to individual liberty. Congress has lost sight of this democratic imperative. Though all Members of Congress pledge to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic" and "bear true faith and allegiance to the same,"[28] rarely if ever do sponsors of legislation, or those voting for it, take the time identify the authority to enact it. Finding constitutional authority for an act should not be an afterthought and cannot be accomplished by adding special incantations to the bill text, but is the primary inquiry in determining whether a proposed act is legitimate and an appropriate use of federal power. In a better world, the Enumerated Powers Act would be superfluous and the constitutional design a regular topic of congressional debates. That is not, however, the world in which Congress legislates today."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #30 March 31, 2009 Quote So, if he is doing this without the consent of congress (and he gets away with it) Would this not be a power grab of very large proportions? Welcome to the 20th Century, man. Congress has yet to sue to try to enforce the War Powers Act, which came out of the manner by which LBJ escalated Vietnam. The courts might rule that the President cannot do this. However, if Congress doesn't even ask, it's going to fall under typical duties for the Executive Branch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #31 March 31, 2009 Quote Pointing out the issues with a previous administration does not justify the problems with the present one. I'm really tired of hearing "it's all George Bush's fault" from the Obama team. Now imagine how exhausted the Democrats were with hearing CDIF for 8 fucking years. It's been just over 8 weeks for the latest reversal! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #32 March 31, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteBut, under the Constitution, Congress does NOT have the power to pass ANY legislation. Only the legislation they are specifically not allowed to pass according to the Constitution. ALL other legislation is certainly within the description of things Congress is allowed to pass. In fact, that's how it's supposed to work. Certainly not the Judiciary and not the Executive either (although there are some ways around this). This is not correct. The Constittution limits the powers of Congress specifically. From the other thread I just started. ***As every schoolchild learns in civics class, the national government is one of limited powers, and any legislation that would exceed those powers is unconstitutional. Rather than attempt to place limits on a grant of absolute power—an endeavor that the Framers recognized as doomed to failure—the original constitutional text goes to the trouble of conveying specific and narrow grants of authority to the federal government. Every act of Congress must fall within some enumerated power or else it is illegitimate, an usurpation of the power retained by the people and their states and a threat to individual liberty. Congress has lost sight of this democratic imperative. Though all Members of Congress pledge to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic" and "bear true faith and allegiance to the same,"[28] rarely if ever do sponsors of legislation, or those voting for it, take the time identify the authority to enact it. Finding constitutional authority for an act should not be an afterthought and cannot be accomplished by adding special incantations to the bill text, but is the primary inquiry in determining whether a proposed act is legitimate and an appropriate use of federal power. In a better world, the Enumerated Powers Act would be superfluous and the constitutional design a regular topic of congressional debates. That is not, however, the world in which Congress legislates today. I think I mentioned that the Constitution prohibits them from legislating certain things. That which is not prohibited, is allowed.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #33 March 31, 2009 Marc, if you want to argue that TARP is unconstitutional, then by all means - state your case. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #34 March 31, 2009 QuoteQuote So, if he is doing this without the consent of congress (and he gets away with it) Would this not be a power grab of very large proportions? Welcome to the 20th Century, man. Congress has yet to sue to try to enforce the War Powers Act, which came out of the manner by which LBJ escalated Vietnam. The courts might rule that the President cannot do this. However, if Congress doesn't even ask, it's going to fall under typical duties for the Executive Branch. Exactly. And in the case of Iraq, it seems to me congress GAVE AWAY the power. Out of cowdese, fear or stupidity I dont know, but they did it none the less"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #35 March 31, 2009 >Pointing out the issues with a previous administration does not justify >the problems with the present one. Agreed 100%. Neither use of power is a good one for a president. I am amused by all the people who would defend every single one of the previous president's actions, then become irate when a president of the opposite party does the same. >and I have no idea what this ODS thing you keep referencing is. Obama Derangement Syndrome, characterized by knee-jerk denunciations of anything Obama does, a rise in blood pressure whenever his name is mentioned and a fervent hope that every program in the US that he touches fails. (Not saying you do this, but several people here are afflicted with it.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #36 March 31, 2009 QuoteMarc, if you want to argue that TARP is unconstitutional, then by all means - state your case. It is simple. Show me under which article Congress or the President has the power to do it. Show me where Congress has the power to give power to a single man to spend this money how he sees fit? It would seem to me that Congress should have to prove it is Constitutional, not fall to someone to prove it is not."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #37 March 31, 2009 Quote>Pointing out the issues with a previous administration does not justify >the problems with the present one. Agreed 100%. Neither use of power is a good one for a president. I am amused by all the people who would defend every single one of the previous president's actions, then become irate when a president of the opposite party does the same. >and I have no idea what this ODS thing you keep referencing is. Obama Derangement Syndrome, characterized by knee-jerk denunciations of anything Obama does, a rise in blood pressure whenever his name is mentioned and a fervent hope that every program in the US that he touches fails. It appears you show more of those type symptoms than the rest of us here on this thread. Show me my frenzied friend, the specific "knee jerk reaction" or comment within this thread that you have accused me of making? Let see, "every program"...... defend "every single one", ......becomes "irate"........ Just a few non-defensible statements and absolutes Does Obamas actions really have you that shook up?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #38 March 31, 2009 Quote Exactly. And in the case of Iraq, it seems to me congress GAVE AWAY the power. Out of cowdese, fear or stupidity I dont know, but they did it none the less Yes, I would agree (and yes, we all know many here do not). And in a similar manner, Congress gave him GM. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rwieder 0 #39 March 31, 2009 QuoteIt is simple. Show me under which article Congress or the President has the power to do it. Show me where Congress has the power to give power to a single man to spend this money how he sees fit? It would seem to me that Congress should have to prove it is Constitutional, not fall to someone to prove it is not. It would seem to me that declaring war on a third world country without UN sanction, or Congressional approval kind of puts all this into perspective. Bypassing Congress is the "Norm" Where is all dem WMD's????-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #40 March 31, 2009 QuoteQuoteMarc, if you want to argue that TARP is unconstitutional, then by all means - state your case. It is simple. Show me under which article Congress or the President has the power to do it. From Article II, Section 3: "… he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed …" QuoteShow me where Congress has the power to give power to a single man to spend this money how he sees fit? From Article I, Section 8: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; To borrow money on the credit of the United States; To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes; … To make Rules for the Government … To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof. I don't see any reason to doubt the constitutional authority for Congress to pass TARP or for the President to execute its provisions. QuoteIt would seem to me that Congress should have to prove it is Constitutional, not fall to someone to prove it is not. It has to be challenged in court before the Judicial branch can determine something to be unconstitutional.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #41 March 31, 2009 QuoteQuoteIt is simple. Show me under which article Congress or the President has the power to do it. Show me where Congress has the power to give power to a single man to spend this money how he sees fit? It would seem to me that Congress should have to prove it is Constitutional, not fall to someone to prove it is not. It would seem to me that declaring war on a third world country without UN sanction, or Congressional approval kind of puts all this into perspective. Bypassing Congress is the "Norm" Where is all dem WMD's???? Ah, 17 UN resolutions and the blessings of Congress. Dailykos is not a good place to get yer info...."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #42 March 31, 2009 Since the powers of Congress are enumerated, not implied, which is as the framers intended, where, in that which you posted, is the power to take tax monies and buy and control a private business?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #43 March 31, 2009 >Ah, 17 UN resolutions and the blessings of Congress. Wow. You now think UN resolutions carry the force of law within the US, and provide justification for a president to take action? I'll remember you said that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #44 March 31, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteIt is simple. Show me under which article Congress or the President has the power to do it. Show me where Congress has the power to give power to a single man to spend this money how he sees fit? It would seem to me that Congress should have to prove it is Constitutional, not fall to someone to prove it is not. It would seem to me that declaring war on a third world country without UN sanction, or Congressional approval kind of puts all this into perspective. Bypassing Congress is the "Norm" Where is all dem WMD's???? Ah, 17 UN resolutions and the blessings of Congress. Dailykos is not a good place to get yer info.... It beats Newsmax or the Washington Times, though. Why don't YOU, as a citizen, file suit against the government and put your money where your keyboard is?If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #45 March 31, 2009 Quote>Ah, 17 UN resolutions and the blessings of Congress. Wow. You now think UN resolutions carry the force of law within the US, and provide justification for a president to take action? I'll remember you said that. Well, it's a stretch when you consider I was pointing out the error of another post. It must of been important to the poster. Now, Show me where I infered otherwise? Or more to the point, show me where I infered the distortion you posted of me?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #46 March 31, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteIt is simple. Show me under which article Congress or the President has the power to do it. Show me where Congress has the power to give power to a single man to spend this money how he sees fit? It would seem to me that Congress should have to prove it is Constitutional, not fall to someone to prove it is not. It would seem to me that declaring war on a third world country without UN sanction, or Congressional approval kind of puts all this into perspective. Bypassing Congress is the "Norm" Where is all dem WMD's???? Ah, 17 UN resolutions and the blessings of Congress. Dailykos is not a good place to get yer info.... It beats Newsmax or the Washington Times, though. Why don't YOU, as a citizen, file suit against the government and put your money where your keyboard is? You got the money? I dont. Nice cop out on your part however. I am donating to organizatins that do file these types of suits though. You?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #47 March 31, 2009 If you won't own up to what you yourself posted I have no interest in reciting your own posts back to you. Good to see that you are defending Bush for doing precisely what you are condemning Obama for, though. At least you're consistent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #48 March 31, 2009 QuoteSince the powers of Congress are enumerated, not implied, which is as the framers intended, where, in that which you posted, is the power to take tax monies and buy and control a private business? The founding fathers did a poor job of enumeration of Congress' powers if that is what was intended. Do you think GM and Chrysler might have potential customers in more than one state?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #49 March 31, 2009 Quote If you won't own up to what you yourself posted I have no interest in reciting your own posts back to you. Good to see that you are defending Bush for doing precisely what you are condemning Obama for, though. At least you're consistent. Wow, you ARE having a bad night Owning up? To what, the distortional lies you posted about me?? I will repost them. And I will do it and defend them in the context intended and as you read them. FCS Bill, you know exactly what I meant. But you need to tear down what you cant beat. Why? Now Show me where I defended Bush on this thread? Stating facts is a defense? I stated the number of UN resolutions (to point out the mistake of another post) and spoke to the fact that Congress gave up its power. I have never said Bush was right to take what they gave him. I think that Congress should declare a war before we go anywhere. But that hasnt happen in a long while And where have I condemed Obama? Yes, I am consistant. It is very easy to do when you speak from belief set and principal. Now, what will you distort from this post?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #50 March 31, 2009 QuoteObama Power! He federalizes banks, insurance companies, and now car companies. What's next? My money is on the oil companies.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
