GM News: Pres. Obama Team Considers Nationalization, Equity Stake

[Gawain 0]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ad9_AOTWnbnQ&refer=home

Quote

A government stake, “means you essentially have a nationalized General Motors until such time as the government sells off its equity to someone else, which won’t happen for a while,” said Gerald Meyers, a professor at the University of Michigan Ross School of Business and a former chairman of American Motors Corp. “The problem is it’s political. On the other hand, it’s a cheap way for the good GM to keep going and probably solidify its strengths.”

It's never enough is it?



President Obama, and your car team (who's never built a car), do share: What's your plan? As a taxpayer I demand a detailed business plan which you propose to execute upon spending yet more money, for an equity stake in a company that needs to be able to restructure like any other business out there. I want to know how you plan to use this leverage with bond-holders and union leaders.

I also want to know how much equity stake you plan to assume at the onset of this plan, I want to know what you plan to do with any dividend payments (if applicable), and what conditions you plan to put in place that might allow the government to sell its stake. I also want to know what conditions would make your team consider increasing the government's stake.

President Obama: As a taxpayer, I demand that you allow GM to restructure under Chapter 11 protection and let the government take its lumps like any other debt holder. Your predecessor should never have given GM money, and you should not be considering an equity stake. Your line of thinking is not just flawed, it's wrong.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[airdvr 210]

Agreed.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[rushmc 23]

And so I ask again
where in our constitution, is the government given the power to do this?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[marks2065 0]

Quote

And so I ask again
where in our constitution, is the government given the power to do this?

Quote

it is not in the constitution, just another thing to grab more control of the country.

[jerryzflies 0]

Quote

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ad9_AOTWnbnQ&refer=home

Quote

A government stake, “means you essentially have a nationalized General Motors until such time as the government sells off its equity to someone else, which won’t happen for a while,” said Gerald Meyers, a professor at the University of Michigan Ross School of Business and a former chairman of American Motors Corp. “The problem is it’s political. On the other hand, it’s a cheap way for the good GM to keep going and probably solidify its strengths.”

It's never enough is it?



President Obama, and your car team (who's never built a car):

I don't think many shareholders of GM or Ford have ever built a car. Have you ever built the products of companies you own stock in? That has to be one of your sillier statements.




I think an indigenous auto industry is very important for the USA.

If the only way to have it is with government equity, so be it.

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Quote

I don't think many shareholders of GM or Ford have ever built a car. Have you ever built the products of companies you own stock in? That has to be one of your sillier statements.

I think an indigenous auto industry is very important for the USA.

If the only way to have it is with government equity, so be it.

How's Amtrak working out for you?

Also, the shareholders of GM are in that position by choice, not by compulsory action from the federal government.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

• Quote

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

I think an indigenous auto industry is very important for the USA.

Why?

And why do you equate the industry with GM?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

How's Amtrak working out for you?

I was under the impression that Amtrak was wholly owned by the Federal Government. Doesn't appear that would be the case for GM. Owning equity in and wholly owning a company are different things. Not even sure if the government would be the controlling share holder in GM.

[marks2065 0]

Quote

Quote

How's Amtrak working out for you?

I was under the impression that Amtrak was wholly owned by the Federal Government. Doesn't appear that would be the case for GM. Owning equity in and wholly owning a company are different things. Not even sure if the government would be the controlling share holder in GM.

Quote

just like they don't control bonus's or force a ceo to leave or allow banks to decline tarp money.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

just like they don't control bonus's or force a ceo to leave or allow banks to decline tarp money.

I seem to remember that the reclawing of the bonuses was based on an outcry from society and legislated through congress.

Wagoner was asked to resign and he did. It may have been a condition of the federal government offering help. GM could have refused the help and Wagoner could have refused to step down.

Banks were allowed to decline TARP money, quite a few did too.

[Capt.Slog 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I don't think many shareholders of GM or Ford have ever built a car. Have you ever built the products of companies you own stock in? That has to be one of your sillier statements.

I think an indigenous auto industry is very important for the USA.

If the only way to have it is with government equity, so be it.

How's Amtrak working out for you?

How's the US Navy working out for you? I hear they did some good stuff just yesterday.

Quote

Also, the shareholders of GM are in that position by choice, not by compulsory action from the federal government.

I seem to recall that the CEO of GM flew to DC in his private jet to ask for taxpayers' money.

• Quote

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

And so I ask again
where in our constitution, is the government given the power to do this?

Last time you asked what gave the President authority, and that was answered. Congress gave it to him.

As for government...this is hardly the first time the government has been involved. The Chrysler bailout was over 20 years ago.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

And so I ask again
where in our constitution, is the government given the power to do this?

Last time you asked what gave the President authority, and that was answered. Congress gave it to him.

As for government...this is hardly the first time the government has been involved. The Chrysler bailout was over 20 years ago.

Ok, show me where in the Constitution Congress is given the power to give this power to the President.

dont hurt yourself trying, because the clause granting this type of shit is not in it.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,998]

>Ok, show me where in the Constitution Congress is given the power to give
>this power to the President.


Article 1 section 8:

"The Congress shall have Power To provide for the . . general Welfare of the United States . . ."

[Gawain 0]

Quote

>Ok, show me where in the Constitution Congress is given the power to give
>this power to the President.


Article 1 section 8:

"The Congress shall have Power To provide for the . . general Welfare of the United States . . ."

Quote

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

That's the United States, not private companies.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[billvon 2,998]

>That's the United States, not private companies.

Right. The United States Congress, not a private company, has the right to provide for the general welfare of the United States - which includes its citizens and entities (like corporations.)

[riddler 0]

I don't think the President or Congress sees that this is a historic opportunity. It's an opportunity to finally kill off the bloated and polluting US auto industry. The auto companies have refused to change, despite everyone's belief that we have to stop burning fossil fuels. 30 years later, only a tiny fraction of vehicles are so "advanced" that they're only burning slightly less fossil fuel. Then they'll roll out a dozen or so "prototypes" of an electric car, that will never be put into production, just to placate everyone that is pushing for more environmental cars. The US automakers will never stop making bad cars. Let them die.

I say take half of the bailout money, and provide temporary welfare for the auto workers for a few years. The only justifiable reason for the auto bailout is to keep the employees working. With a few hundred billion, you can give the auto-workers money and guidance to find other jobs (no, it won't be $70/hour, but it will be a reasonable wage). Eventually, they will either find different jobs, or they will regain employment in the New American auto industry. Rules are required job counseling, limited wages, and welfare stops in a few years.

Take the other half of the money and give it to a handful of startup companies that pledge to build only electric or hydrogen vehicles. This will be the beginning of the New American auto industry. Rules are no building anything that burns fossil fuels, must meet current auto safety requirements, hire out-of-work autoworkers (no unions allowed), and first production vehicles out in one year (small companies can move this fast). Benefits are substantial tax breaks, in addition to a government handout to get started. Auto manufacturers of other countries will eventually follow the US and do the same.

The oil companies will be shocked an awed. They will be forced to move to producing hydrogen fuel, storage and delivery for long-range vehicles. They will be forced to replace gas stations will hydrogen. This will take a few years, and in the meantime, most people will just keep driving their old cars (and continue to use gasoline or diesel). The oil companies will have a few years to adapt. New industries will start putting charging stations in homes and parking lots for the short-range electric vehicles. No government money required here.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[Gawain 0]

Quote

>That's the United States, not private companies.

Right. The United States Congress, not a private company, has the right to provide for the general welfare of the United States - which includes its citizens and entities (like corporations.)

Sorry Bill, I don't see that power expressly outlined in Article I, Section 8:

Quote

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

--To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
--To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
--To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
--To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
--To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
--To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
--To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
--To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
--To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
--To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
--To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
--To provide and maintain a Navy;
--To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
--To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
--To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
--To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
--To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Can you point it out to me?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Lefty 0]

Man, those are some bad ideas.

Quote

I don't think the President or Congress sees that this is a historic opportunity. It's an opportunity to finally kill off the bloated and polluting US auto industry.

That does sound pretty historic, if that is their motive.

Quote

The auto companies have refused to change, despite everyone's belief that we have to stop burning fossil fuels.

By "everyone" do you mean all the consumers who, knowing we have to stop burning fossil fuels, purchase fossil fuel burning cars anyway?

Quote

Then they'll roll out a dozen or so "prototypes" of an electric car, that will never be put into production, just to placate everyone that is pushing for more environmental cars.

Which is exactly what the companies who pledge to create more eco-friendly cars will do once they know the government will be paying their bills.

Quote

Let them die.

Best idea of the post.

Quote

I say take half of the bailout money, and provide temporary welfare for the auto workers for a few years.

In other words, give them a paid vacation for a few years.

Quote

With a few hundred billion, you can give the auto-workers money and guidance to find other jobs (no, it won't be $70/hour, but it will be a reasonable wage). Eventually, they will either find different jobs, or they will regain employment in the New American auto industry. Rules are required job counseling, limited wages, and welfare stops in a few years.

Are you suggesting these auto workers are somehow dumber and less capable than any other employee who gets laid off? They can dig into their savings, go back to school, and learn new skills just like the rest of us.

Quote

Take the other half of the money and give it to a handful of startup companies that pledge to build only electric or hydrogen vehicles.

Haha, I'll make that pledge. Want to pay me?

Quote

This will be the beginning of the New American auto industry.

More like Brave New American Auto Industry.

Quote

Rules are no building anything that burns fossil fuels, must meet current auto safety requirements, hire out-of-work autoworkers (no unions allowed), and first production vehicles out in one year (small companies can move this fast). Benefits are substantial tax breaks, in addition to a government handout to get started. Auto manufacturers of other countries will eventually follow the US and do the same.

Another rule: completely ignore market forces and consumer demand...because that's what's going to sell these cars.

Quote

The oil companies will be shocked an awed. They will be forced to move to producing hydrogen fuel, storage and delivery for long-range vehicles. They will be forced to replace gas stations will hydrogen. This will take a few years, and in the meantime, most people will just keep driving their old cars (and continue to use gasoline or diesel). The oil companies will have a few years to adapt. New industries will start putting charging stations in homes and parking lots for the short-range electric vehicles. No government money required here.

Right, no government money. Only the government "killing off" a huge sector of the country's economy and hoping the rest falls into place. You had it right when you said "let them die". No need to kill them off with our own money.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[billvon 2,998]

>Sorry Bill, I don't see that power expressly outlined in Article I, Section 8:

No problem, here it is:

Quote
Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

--To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
--To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
--To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
--To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
--To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
--To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
--To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
--To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
--To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
--To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
--To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
--To provide and maintain a Navy;
--To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
--To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
--To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
--To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
--To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

Quote

>That's the United States, not private companies.

Right. The United States Congress, not a private company, has the right to provide for the general welfare of the United States - which includes its citizens and entities (like corporations.)

Sorry Bill, I don't see that power expressly outlined in Article I, Section 8:

Quote

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

--To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
--To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
--To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
--To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
--To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
--To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
--To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
--To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
--To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
--To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
--To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
--To provide and maintain a Navy;
--To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
--To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
--To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
--To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
--To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Can you point it out to me?

He already did.

For someone sworn to defend the Constitution, your post makes it appear that you don't have a very good understanding of that document.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Lefty 0]

Quote

For someone sworn to defend the Constitution, your post makes it appear that you don't have a very good understanding of that document.

High school debate team quality cheap shot. Should we declare the arguments that have raged over the Constitution (since before it was even written) finished because you've got it all figured out, then?

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[Gawain 0]

Quote

I don't think the President or Congress sees that this is a historic opportunity. It's an opportunity to finally kill off the bloated and polluting US auto industry. The auto companies have refused to change, despite everyone's belief that we have to stop burning fossil fuels. 30 years later, only a tiny fraction of vehicles are so "advanced" that they're only burning slightly less fossil fuel. Then they'll roll out a dozen or so "prototypes" of an electric car, that will never be put into production, just to placate everyone that is pushing for more environmental cars. The US automakers will never stop making bad cars. Let them die.

Can you name the top two selling vehicles in America last year, during the high fuel-price-mania?

1. Ford F-150 Pick-up
2. Chevy Silverado 1500 Pick-up

Outselling Toyota Camrys and Honda Accords by handsome margins.

GM has plenty of efficient designs. They just aren't worth the asking price. Regardless of quality, there is no reason why a Chevy Malibu should cost as much as it does. With $2500-4000 of legacy costs built in, GM loses.

Same applies to Ford and Chrysler.

Management and the Unions have refused to see this train wreck coming, but it's been looming for years, fuel prices, economies had little to do with it. GM hasn't turned a profit since 2004. 5 years in the red...and government gave them more money?

As to the rest of your post, some of it has interesting concepts, but I find it to be myopic overall.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

Quote

For someone sworn to defend the Constitution, your post makes it appear that you don't have a very good understanding of that document.

High school debate team quality cheap shot.

That would indicate a step up from most of the debating in SC.

Quote

Should we declare the arguments that have raged over the Constitution (since before it was even written) finished because you've got it all figured out, then?

I don't, nor have I ever claimed to, have it all figured out. Nice middle school debate team quality tactic, though.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rushmc 23]

Quote

>Ok, show me where in the Constitution Congress is given the power to give
>this power to the President.


Article 1 section 8:

"The Congress shall have Power To provide for the . . general Welfare of the United States . . ."

Nice

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln