The 9/11 Al Qaeda Attack

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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AQ doesn't have an end game, not a realistic one, and they have no plans to take anything in tact.

I have a hard time believing you know this for a fact.

[jcd11235 0]

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I think "tactics without strategy" is pretty much the definition of a suicide bomber attacking a civilian population.

That's not necessarily true if the suicide bomber is part of a larger organization, which was the case on 9/11.

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AQ doesn't have an end game, not a realistic one, and they have no plans to take anything in tact.

Given their stated goal of destroying the US economy, it would appear that their desired end game is to eliminate the USA's status as (arguably) the world's only superpower.

Fighting an unwinnable war in Afghanistan was a significant contributing factor to the demise of the USSR, who al Qaeda and other mujahideen terrorists fought against, with support of the United States. It's certainly not unreasonable to expect an attack that manipulates/motivates the US into a similar war would detrimentally affect the US economy in a similar manner.

That is certainly not an example of "tactics without strategy."

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Coreece 190]

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The application of Sun Tzu's wisdom was brilliant. That's not the same thing as saying the attack was brilliant.

please give a reference where it is shown that Al Queda studied Sun Tzu...(not saying they haven't)

...The only thing that I can see that would resemble a Sun Tzu teaching would be that they used our planes instead of thier own....not a hard option to choose when it's the only one....

Why is it that people give so much credit to others for thinking the obvious....

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Anyone who is familiar with his work (i.e. has given his treatise more than a cursory read or two) should be able to see that.

I just don't see the heart of Sun Tzu's philosophy being compatible with the heart of terrorism.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[shropshire 0]

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You make it too complicated. How about:

A) Heroes.

B) Assholes.

That would depend entirely upon ones perspective.

And thus the poll.

Whoopps - You're absolutely right

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[jcd11235 0]

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please give a reference where it is shown that Al Queda studied Sun Tzu...(not saying they haven't)

Sorry, al Qaeda members didn't consult with me. All I have to go by is my familiarity with Sun Tzu, and the consistency of his advice with the known actions of al Qaeda. It's entirely possible that their leaders directly studied Clausewitz's On War or other subsequent (to Sun Tzu) texts that repeated, intentionally or coincidentally, Sun Tzu's wisdom. It could also be that the al Qaeda leaders are just naturally gifted military leaders who simply acted intuitively. That would not change the fact that the attack demonstrated good comprehension of many insights from Sun Tzu's work.

One does not need to directly study Leibniz in order to study and apply binary mathematics or calculus. Yet, if one studies binary mathematics or calculus, that person indeed studies the teachings of Leibniz. One does not need to directly study Euclid in order to understand and apply Euclidean geometry. Yet, if one studies Euclidean geometry, that person indeed studies the teachings of Euclid.

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...The only thing that I can see that would resemble a Sun Tzu teaching would be that they used our planes instead of thier own....not a hard option to choose when it's the only one....

The only option? You are aware that 9/11 wasn't the first time al Qaeda attacked the WTC, right? So, clearly, it was not the only option.

If you don't see other similarities between the attack and Sun Tzu's teachings, perhaps you should research both a little more.

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Why is it that people give so much credit to others for thinking the obvious....

If it was so obvious, why was the plot not stopped before the attacks were carried out? It only seems obvious with the benefit of hindsight.

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I just don't see the heart of Sun Tzu's philosophy being compatible with the heart of terrorism.

Tell us, please, what was "the heart of Sun Tzu's philosophy" (very easy question)? What do you mean by "the heart of terrorism"? (Let's see if you avoid these questions like you have most others I've asked that illuminate your unfamiliarity with Sun Tzu.)

Few books have been written that have as wide applicability as The Art of War. That Sun Tzu was able to so concisely generalize so many insights is why it is considered such a timeless classic.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Coreece 190]

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The only option?

Yeah...in order to perform an air strike they pretty much had to use our planes and commit suicide. I think ICBM's and fighter jet's were out of the question....

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If you don't see other similarities between the attack and Sun Tzu's teachings, perhaps you should research both a little more.

If you don't see the shit-load of differences between the attack and Sun Tzu's teachings, perhaps you should research both a little more.

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If it was so obvious, why was the plot not stopped before the attacks were carried out? It only seems obvious with the benefit of hindsight.

Flying a plane into a target is nothing new, so you can't claim brilliance there....

suicide bombers are, well, suicide bombers....no brilliance there except for the sparkly explosion....

Planes have been hijacked many times over the years....nothing new.

So, I don't know why....why weren't other hijackings stopped?

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Tell us, please, what was "the heart of Sun Tzu's philosophy" (very easy question)? What do you mean by "the heart of terrorism"? (Let's see if you avoid these questions like you have most others I've asked that illuminate your unfamiliarity with Sun Tzu.)

Well the heart of terrorism is to terrorize and commit mass murder of mainly unarmed civilian non-millitants...I guess to prove a point or something...or to convert people to their belief system....Brilliant!

As for Sun Tzu, I'll just post the quote from earlier:
The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.

So let's recap for a moment:

You can't give even the slightest reference to support your claim that terrorists successfully applied Sun Tzu's techniques.

Since you can't show a shred of evidence that Al Qaeda studied Sun Tzu principles, you give a paragraph of bollocks.

You say that you know Sun Tzu's techniques and can recognize them in the 9/11 attack, but do not provide anything substantial to support that.

You say you've asked me questions that I didn't answer...ok...here goes:

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What actions, exactly, have bin Laden or other al Qaeda leaders made that offer indication that they covet fame, in your opinion?

They claim responsibilty for mass murders and boast in their inequity as their brethren offer their praise and support.....I find it interesting you didn't care to respond to the other part of that quote:.....whose only thought is to protect his country and do good service for his sovereign, is the jewel of the kingdom

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Did you see al Qaeda battling on the streets of NYC?

In the quote, Sun Tzu say's subdue the enemy without fighting....that also means that the supreme art of war is to subue the enemy without crashing a jet into a building killing thousands of innocent people.

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Did you notice that the US is fighting war on two fronts, neither of which are in locations controlled by al Qaeda?

Are you saying that Al qaeda isn't fighting or going to fight? Awesome! So it's over, yes...nothing to worry about?

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Did you happen to notice the price tag of those wars? Do you think those wars are good for our economy?

perhaps you can start another thread called "The Terrorists are winning!" or "Al Quaeda is responsible for the recession, not us!"

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Few books have been written that have as wide applicability as The Art of War. That Sun Tzu was able to so concisely generalize so many insights is why it is considered such a timeless classic.

ok...so now anytime there was a carefully planned attack we can say it was brilliant and Sun Tzu would've been proud...

Now...would you please provide detailed support of your claim?

Edit
Actually, it doesn't even have to be that detailed...just something simple like some quotes taken out of context so I can concede and call it the night.

If you want, we can put up my quotes against your quotes and see who has the stonger case....

btw.....
20% = Fail
80% = Pass

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[jcd11235 0]

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Yeah...in order to perform an air strike they pretty much had to use our planes and commit suicide. I think ICBM's and fighter jet's were out of the question.

As I've already pointed out, and history has proven, an air strike was not the only option.

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If you don't see the shit-load of differences between the attack and Sun Tzu's teachings, perhaps you should research both a little more.

Feel free to point out some of those differences, something you have thus far failed to do. It is literally impossible to apply every insight Sun Tzu presented simultaneously, as they apply to different situations.

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Flying a plane into a target is nothing new, so you can't claim brilliance there.

Nice strawman. Your arguments are getting weaker and weaker with each post.

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suicide bombers are, well, suicide bombers....no brilliance there except for the sparkly explosion.

Nice red herring. Suicide bombers weren't used for the 9/11 attacks.

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Planes have been hijacked many times over the years....nothing new.

And how many times, prior to 9/11, have commercial airliners been hijacked with box cutters and flown into large buildings, let alone buildings that were symbolic of our military and our economy?

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So, I don't know why....why weren't other hijackings stopped?

Because, like on 9/11, it wasn't obvious that those hijackings were going to occur, either, despite your claims to the contrary.

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Well the heart of terrorism is to terrorize and commit mass murder of mainly unarmed civilian non-millitants...I guess to prove a point or something...or to convert people to their belief system....Brilliant!

That sounds like an imprecise definition of a subset of terrorism, but certainly not all of it.

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As for Sun Tzu, I'll just post the quote from earlier:
The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.

That's merely one of his insights, albeit an important one. Sun Tzu was a Taoist, which is what I was getting at. The Art of War could have been accurately titled The Tao of Conflict.

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You can't give even the slightest reference to support your claim that terrorists successfully applied Sun Tzu's techniques.

I've given several examples. Perhaps you should read my previous posts before making such preposterous claims.

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Since you can't show a shred of evidence that Al Qaeda studied Sun Tzu principles, you give a paragraph of bollocks.

Ahh … another preposterous claim.

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You say that you know Sun Tzu's techniques and can recognize them in the 9/11 attack, but do not provide anything substantial to support that.

If you had read my previous posts on the topic, you would know that's not true.

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What actions, exactly, have bin Laden or other al Qaeda leaders made that offer indication that they covet fame, in your opinion?

They claim responsibilty for mass murders and boast in their inequity as their brethren offer their praise and support.

Taking responsibility for your actions is hardly the same as seeking fame.

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I find it interesting you didn't care to respond to the other part of that quote:.....whose only thought is to protect his country and do good service for his sovereign, is the jewel of the kingdom

Right, because they were not acting in the service of any country or sovereign. Most applications of The Art of War are not made by generals leading national armies. Hell, it's probably the single most influential book I've ever read, and one of very few that I've read a dozen times or more. I am constantly finding ways to apply its lessons, yet the only army I've ever led has been on a chess board.

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In the quote, Sun Tzu say's subdue the enemy without fighting....that also means that the supreme art of war is to subue the enemy without crashing a jet into a building killing thousands of innocent people.

You misunderstand the passage. Sun Tzu readily acknowledges that it is not always possible to manipulate one's enemy to do what you want him to do, while thinking it was his own idea to do it. That is the ultimate success, but it is certainly not the only path to success that he promotes. Heck, you even quoted a passage from the chapter in which he speaks of fighting on "death ground," which is the antithesis of defeating one's enemy without fighting.

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Are you saying that Al qaeda isn't fighting or going to fight? Awesome! So it's over, yes...nothing to worry about?

I didn't say anything of the sort.

The US overreacted, going to war against an entire country, while al Qaeda was, by comparison, only a tiny organization. However, by invading, we have managed to make enemies out of many of the citizens of Afghanistan (and later Iraq). The end result is that we have to fight harder than al Qaeda does, because our actions ensured that we have to fight more than just al Qaeda.

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Did you happen to notice the price tag of those wars? Do you think those wars are good for our economy?

perhaps you can start another thread called "The Terrorists are winning!" or "Al Quaeda is responsible for the recession, not us!"

Cool. A nice flippant response to avoid answering the question and acknowledging that spending billions of dollars on the War on Terror plays right into the terrorists hands.

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ok...so now anytime there was a carefully planned attack we can say it was brilliant and Sun Tzu would've been proud.

Do you really misunderstand everything I write, or are you just having trouble acknowledging the reality of the situation? Nothing I wrote can be objectively interpreted in such a way.

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Now...would you please provide detailed support of your claim?

I've already offered support in previous posts. You've ignored them, only to bring up more issues that have already been addressed.

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Actually, it doesn't even have to be that detailed...just something simple like some quotes taken out of context so I can concede and call it the night.

Sigh … As you wish. Here are a few that apply directly to al Qaeda. I've refrained from adding many more that highlight predictable mistakes we have made in the GWOT. From the Giles translation:

I. LAYING PLANS

22. If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to
irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.

23. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest.
If his forces are united, separate them.

24. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where
you are not expected.

II. WAGING WAR

7. It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted
with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand
the profitable way of carrying it on.

15. Hence a wise general makes a point of foraging
on the enemy. One cartload of the enemy's provisions
is equivalent to twenty of one's own, and likewise
a single picul of his provender is equivalent to twenty
from one's own store.

III. ATTACK BY STRATAGEM

18. Hence the saying: If you know the enemy
and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a
hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy,
for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.
If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will
succumb in every battle.

IV. TACTICAL DISPOSITIONS

1. Sun Tzu said: The good fighters of old first put
themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then
waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy.

2. To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our
own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy
is provided by the enemy himself.

7. The general who is skilled in defense hides in the
most secret recesses of the earth; he who is skilled in
attack flashes forth from the topmost heights of heaven.
Thus on the one hand we have ability to protect ourselves;
on the other, a victory that is complete.

V. ENERGY

6. Indirect tactics, efficiently applied, are inexhaustible
as Heaven and Earth, unending as the flow of rivers and streams;
like the sun and moon, they end but to begin anew;
like the four seasons, they pass away to return once more.

VI. WEAK POINTS AND STRONG

7. You can be sure of succeeding in your attacks
if you only attack places which are undefended.You can
ensure the safety of your defense if you only hold
positions that cannot be attacked.

8. Hence that general is skillful in attack whose
opponent does not know what to defend; and he is skillful
in defense whose opponent does not know what to attack.

18. Numerical weakness comes from having to prepare
against possible attacks; numerical strength, from compelling
our adversary to make these preparations against us.

XI. THE ARMY ON THE MARCH

23. Throw your soldiers into positions whence there
is no escape, and they will prefer death to flight.
If they will face death, there is nothing they may
not achieve. Officers and men alike will put forth
their uttermost strength.

35. It is the business of a general to be quiet and thus
ensure secrecy; upright and just, and thus maintain order.

36. He must be able to mystify his officers and men
by false reports and appearances, and thus keep them
in total ignorance.

37. By altering his arrangements and changing
his plans, he keeps the enemy without definite knowledge.
By shifting his camp and taking circuitous routes,
he prevents the enemy from anticipating his purpose.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[n23x 0]

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If you want, we can put up my quotes against your quotes and see who has the stonger case....

btw.....
20% = Fail
80% = Pass

Look up the word coward yet?

I thought not.

New poll:

A.) The sun is the bright light of god, which is made up of thousands of candles, held by angels and ponies.

B.) The sun is composed largely of helium and hydrogen, outputs an enormous amount of energy through nuclear fusion, and the Earth is 86 years old.

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[Coreece 190]

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Sigh … As you wish. Here are a few that apply directly to al Qaeda. From the Giles translation:


I. LAYING PLANS

22. If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to
irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.

23. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest.
If his forces are united, separate them.

24. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where
you are not expected.

II. WAGING WAR

7. It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted
with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand
the profitable way of carrying it on.

15. Hence a wise general makes a point of foraging
on the enemy. One cartload of the enemy's provisions
is equivalent to twenty of one's own, and likewise
a single picul of his provender is equivalent to twenty
from one's own store.

III. ATTACK BY STRATAGEM

18. Hence the saying: If you know the enemy
and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a
hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy,
for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.
If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will
succumb in every battle.

IV. TACTICAL DISPOSITIONS

1. Sun Tzu said: The good fighters of old first put
themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then
waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy.

2. To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our
own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy
is provided by the enemy himself.

7. The general who is skilled in defense hides in the
most secret recesses of the earth; he who is skilled in
attack flashes forth from the topmost heights of heaven.
Thus on the one hand we have ability to protect ourselves;
on the other, a victory that is complete.

V. ENERGY

6. Indirect tactics, efficiently applied, are inexhaustible
as Heaven and Earth, unending as the flow of rivers and streams;
like the sun and moon, they end but to begin anew;
like the four seasons, they pass away to return once more.

VI. WEAK POINTS AND STRONG

7. You can be sure of succeeding in your attacks
if you only attack places which are undefended.You can
ensure the safety of your defense if you only hold
positions that cannot be attacked.

8. Hence that general is skillful in attack whose
opponent does not know what to defend; and he is skillful
in defense whose opponent does not know what to attack.

18. Numerical weakness comes from having to prepare
against possible attacks; numerical strength, from compelling
our adversary to make these preparations against us.

XI. THE ARMY ON THE MARCH

23. Throw your soldiers into positions whence there
is no escape, and they will prefer death to flight.
If they will face death, there is nothing they may
not achieve. Officers and men alike will put forth
their uttermost strength.

35. It is the business of a general to be quiet and thus
ensure secrecy; upright and just, and thus maintain order.

36. He must be able to mystify his officers and men
by false reports and appearances, and thus keep them
in total ignorance.

37. By altering his arrangements and changing
his plans, he keeps the enemy without definite knowledge.
By shifting his camp and taking circuitous routes,
he prevents the enemy from anticipating his purpose.

Thank you.

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I've refrained from adding many more that highlight predictable mistakes we have made in the GWOT.

Well hopefully we won't make anymore:

There has never been a protracted war from which a country has benefited.-Sun Tsu

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[jakee 1,564]

Some of your arguments here are absolutely ridiculous.

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In the quote, Sun Tzu say's subdue the enemy without fighting....that also means that the supreme art of war is to subue the enemy without crashing a jet into a building killing thousands of innocent people.

Leave that one alone!

Seriously, stop going down that road, it only makes you look foolish and undermines the rest of your posts.

Do you seriously think that anyone who does fight cannot then be using any important techniques from the Art of War? Sun Tzu himself was a general, do you think that everytime he appeared on the battlefield he threw out his entire martial philosophy?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Skyrad 0]

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I think "tactics without strategy" is pretty much the definition of a suicide bomber attacking a civilian population. Also, AQ doesn't have an end game, not a realistic one,

Just because an organisation or group of organisations use a human bomb rather than a non human bomb doesn't denote an absence of a strategy. In fact the opposite could be argued as humans don't destroy their own life on a whim in these situations but only when there is a perceived strategy. In the case of the 9/11 attack it was part of an ongoing war against the US and the west. It could be argued that the target was an economic target just as the US claimed that the Serbian TV station it bombed which also contained only civilians was a legitimate target as it was a instrument of propergander.
Because of a western upbringing most people can not fathom a strategy that is viewed beyond thousands of years to eternity itself by those who we fight against. But that does not mean that a strategy is not in place. The fact that it is longitudinal in nature makes it all the more achievable by those who fight to achieve it.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[shropshire 0]

Well said. [one of] "our" biggest problems is NOT seeing the world through other peoples eyes.

That arrogance has cost peoples lives and will continue to do so

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Coreece 190]

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In the quote, Sun Tzu say's subdue the enemy without fighting....that also means that the supreme art of war is to subue the enemy without crashing a jet into a building killing thousands of innocent people.

>Leave that one alone!

>Seriously, stop going down that road, it only makes you look foolish and undermines the rest of your posts.

I understand...thanks.

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Do you seriously think that anyone who does fight cannot then be using any important techniques from the Art of War? Sun Tzu himself was a general, do you think that everytime he appeared on the battlefield he threw out his entire martial philosophy?

No.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[champu 1]

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Because of a western upbringing most people can not fathom a strategy that is viewed beyond thousands of years to eternity itself by those who we fight against. But that does not mean that a strategy is not in place.

That arrogance has cost peoples lives and will continue to do so

Perhaps I was misunderstood as I certainly had no intention of coming across as arrogant. I don't presume them to be children throwing a temper tantrum if that's what anyone thought I meant.

I also don't think weakening the US/western economy constitutes an end game for AQ. It's a step for sure, and they've achieved some measure of success. But in what larger direction? I think their ideology isn't suitable to fill the kind of void for which they appear to be aiming. It's one thing to pull the wool over the eyes of the local population in tribal areas and another to exert ruling power over vast regions.

[Skyrad 0]

I don't think either of us meant you personally.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[shropshire 0]

Correct.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Capt.Slog 0]

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Because of a western upbringing most people can not fathom a strategy that is viewed beyond thousands of years to eternity itself by those who we fight against. But that does not mean that a strategy is not in place.

That arrogance has cost peoples lives and will continue to do so

Perhaps I was misunderstood as I certainly had no intention of coming across as arrogant. I don't presume them to be children throwing a temper tantrum if that's what anyone thought I meant.

I also don't think weakening the US/western economy constitutes an end game for AQ. It's a step for sure, and they've achieved some measure of success. .

They've enjoyed tremendous success. Every time you go through TSA to board an airliner you are paying the price they've extracted. Every phone call you make overseas is likely to be monitored. Every time you can't mail a package of more than 13oz without going to the post office you're paying the price. If you pay college tuition you're paying the price of extra staff they had to employ to deal with the new rules.

The list goes on and on. WE have handed them a victory that must far exceed their wildest dreams when they planned the operation.

[squarecanopy 0]

WOW.
Great thread, even if the poll was weird. Now I have to change my opinion of how most skydivers are just damn shallow, hedonistic, self centered boobs who don't think much past the next jump.

Seriously though, I have read every post here with fascination. Thanks to all for your thoughts and carrying on this discussion with civility.

Just burning a hole in the sky.....