shropshire 0 #1 April 17, 2009 QuoteCIA agents who used harsh interrogation techniques on terrorism suspects during the Bush era will not be prosecuted, US President Barack Obama has said. The assurance came as memos were released detailing the range of techniques the CIA was allowed to use during the Bush administration. Mr Obama banned the use of methods such as sleep deprivation and simulated drowning in his first week in office. clicky (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #2 April 17, 2009 I have to take exception to the thread title. He didn't "excuse" the torture. He's saving the asses of the field agents who followed orders. He is not however, exempting those who reinterpreted the definition of "torture". The Obama administration did not say that protection would extend to CIA agents who acted outside the boundaries laid out in the memos, or to those non-CIA staff involved in approving the interrogation limits. That leaves open the possibility that those lawyers who crafted the legal opinions authorising the techniques, one of whom is now a federal judge, could yet face legal action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #3 April 17, 2009 Hey, take as much exception as you like, that's the nature of debate. If you follow an illegal order, you are guilty of an illegal act [full-stop] He is excusing torture by excusing the tortures [full-stop] (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #4 April 17, 2009 I can't check out the link yet, but the harsh methods I've heard of include slapping-to startle, sleep deprivation, and confinement with a caterpillar. If that is torture, then the meaning of that word has completely changed. Basic training in the military includes some of those things. If water boarding is torture, why is it OK to do that to some of our military as part of their training?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #5 April 17, 2009 QuoteHey, take as much exception as you like, that's the nature of debate. If you follow an illegal order, you are guilty of an illegal act [full-stop] He is excusing torture by excusing the tortures [full-stop] I think it is open to interpretation exactly what is an illegal act in this case. I think that the definition of what was to be allowed at the time was not at all so clear, and required interpretation. That interpretation was provided to them. Even ordinary criminals are subjected to many types of threats, intimidation, and uncomfortable environments by police.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #6 April 17, 2009 QuoteHey, take as much exception as you like, that's the nature of debate. If you follow an illegal order, you are guilty of an illegal act [full-stop] He is excusing torture by excusing the tortures [full-stop] I see your point. Mine is that I don't think it's right to hold the field personnel accountable for illegal action when they've been told by lawyers that those actions are legal. I think that the lawyers who reinterpreted the law and the people who requested/demanded liberal interpretation of the laws should be the ones held accountable. I'll be unhappy if that doesn't happen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #7 April 17, 2009 That sucks, and I'm disappointed in Obama. They should all be prosecuted, right up to the CinC who condoned it.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #8 April 17, 2009 I agree, it does appear that it was open to interpretation at the time but once made clear there must be strict guidelines and they should be adhered to. This must come from the top. He should not excuse them but let them know in no uncertain terms that they have done wrong - which must be the case because he has let it be known that these practises (Water-boarding etc) are unacceptable. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #9 April 17, 2009 QuoteIf water boarding is torture … If water boarding is torture? Water boarding was considered torture by the US at least as far back as the Viet Nam war.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #10 April 17, 2009 Quote QuoteCIA agents who used harsh interrogation techniques on terrorism suspects during the Bush era will not be prosecuted [by the United States], US President Barack Obama has said. clicky I think the part I added in boldface is implied in Obama's statement. I believe the possibility of prosecution by other parties remains.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #11 April 17, 2009 QuoteQuote QuoteCIA agents who used harsh interrogation techniques on terrorism suspects during the Bush era will not be prosecuted [by the United States], US President Barack Obama has said. clicky I think the part I added in boldface is implied in Obama's statement. I believe the possibility of prosecution by other parties remains. It remains de jure only. De facto no one is going to try US agents in defiance of the US. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #12 April 17, 2009 QuoteDe facto no one is going to try US agents in defiance of the US. I hope that is not true. International laws should apply to the US as much as any other country.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #13 April 17, 2009 Exposing it does a lot to reinforce the view that we were 'wrong' somehow in the previous administration. The cost, time and punishment that may never be meted out would be a valid step, but would probably do more damage than harm at this point to the reputation of the USA. That's kinda the way I see the actions in the past few days. We will show it and talk about it, but we are not going to go after anyone. I don't agree with it totally, but I sorta understand it from their 'political' viewpoint. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #14 April 17, 2009 QuoteQuoteDe facto no one is going to try US agents in defiance of the US. I hope that is not true. International laws should apply to the US as much as any other country. ,..and the rules of gentlemanly behavior should apply to NFL players the same as everyone else. YOU tell the lineman that butted in line that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #15 April 17, 2009 QuoteI can't check out the link yet, but the harsh methods I've heard of include slapping-to startle, sleep deprivation, and confinement with a caterpillar. If that is torture, then the meaning of that word has completely changed. Basic training in the military includes some of those things. Quick tangent, please: standard US miltary basic training includes the "confinement with insects" method? Or is this just an offshoot of all recruits being, you know, maggots? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #16 April 17, 2009 I think that's a good point, all -in-all. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funjumper101 15 #17 April 17, 2009 At one point in history, AKA, 1947, "I was only following orders", was found to be an unacceptable defense for torture, murder and other war crimes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials The torture that was performed was illegal and the perpetrators should be prosecuted for their actions. In no way, shape or form is it legit to "write a legal memo" to allow that which is illegal. Those that were asked to perform illegal acts should have said NO. Those that followed illegal orders should be prosecuted, ALONG WITH those that gave the orders. Where are the righties on this one? I thought that y'all were true believers in the rule of law. Apparently not, based on how much you are defending the criminals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #18 April 17, 2009 Several field officers objected to the interrogation techniques and requested clarification. The Justice Department (same folks who would now prosecute them) issued a written opinion which those officers relied on. It would be the height of hypocrisy for the Justice Department to now change it's official position (which it issued to basically tell the doubters to get back in line) and start prosecuting the very same people who had questioned it's wisdom previously.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #19 April 17, 2009 QuoteQuoteI can't check out the link yet, but the harsh methods I've heard of include slapping-to startle, sleep deprivation, and confinement with a caterpillar. If that is torture, then the meaning of that word has completely changed. Basic training in the military includes some of those things. Quick tangent, please: standard US miltary basic training includes the "confinement with insects" method? Or is this just an offshoot of all recruits being, you know, maggots? I said "some of those things". But really, it was a CATERPILLAR! Surely basic training does involve having to put up with inscects in a general sense, but basic training includes sleep deprivation, right? Specialized training for some of our military does include waterboarding. I cannot understand how some think that the methods that were used were so clearly illegal. I think it obviously was not clear, it was open for interpretation.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #20 April 17, 2009 Quote...training for some of our military... I think the best way to determine if something is "torture" is to take an American soldier who has been tortured as a POW, let him see what's going on, and ask him what he thinks. If I recall correctly, when that happened, Senator McCain was pretty clear in his opinion that it was torture and needed to stop. Note that I still think the guys relying on official DOJ interpretation should not be the scapegoats here.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #21 April 17, 2009 Quote I think it obviously was not clear, it was open for interpretation. But the point is (is it not?) that they should not be open to interpretation. Any orders, processes and procedures should be clear and unequivocal. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #22 April 17, 2009 QuoteSeveral field officers objected to the interrogation techniques and requested clarification. The Justice Department (same folks who would now prosecute them) issued a written opinion which those officers relied on. It would be the height of hypocrisy for the Justice Department to now change it's official position (which it issued to basically tell the doubters to get back in line) and start prosecuting the very same people who had questioned it's wisdom previously. Devil's advocate: One could easily interpret this to mean they knew they were doing something wrong before and after the opinions were issued, and were only concerned about not getting in trouble for it. This would erode their halos, but as you said, huffing and puffing about what policy was in place when this stuff happened is wasted breath. In any event, I agree with how Obama handled this: go after the policy makers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #23 April 17, 2009 QuoteQuote...training for some of our military... I think the best way to determine if something is "torture" is to take an American soldier who has been tortured as a POW, let him see what's going on, and ask him what he thinks. If I recall correctly, when that happened, Senator McCain was pretty clear in his opinion that it was torture and needed to stop. Note that I still think the guys relying on official DOJ interpretation should not be the scapegoats here. Amen to that.... IF anyone is going to get screwed over it needs to start at the top who gave the directives and justified that shit in the first place. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #24 April 17, 2009 Quote… basic training includes sleep deprivation, right? It didn't include sleep deprivation when I went through basic training 16 years ago.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #25 April 17, 2009 QuoteSpecialized training for some of our military does include waterboarding. Oh...so they were training the prisoners not to fuck with America....got it.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
