jcd11235 0
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QuoteQuoteQuoteBut Pelosi is not claiming that she was muffled by a claim of security interest. She is claiming that she was never told what many others say she most definitely was told.
If she was privy to classified information, it is most probable that she would be unable to divulge that she knew, let alone what she knew.
The important point is that Pelosi supported the interrogations, and wanted more to be done. .
We know this HOW? "It has been widely reported" simply doesn't mean much.
If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.
QuoteYou have done a good job of making and defending your points. billvon et al. will change topic direction when called on their crap.
Fact remains, the dems supported everything that happened until it became politically better to do otherwise.
Example, Bush mislead everyone and influenced intel BEFOR he was even considered and presidential canidate. We all know this because of statements made about SH by Kerry, Kennedy, Schumer et al. before Bush was even running.
Damn, he and Rove are good
Do you really like making yourself look silly?
If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.
rushmc 23
QuoteQuoteYou have done a good job of making and defending your points. billvon et al. will change topic direction when called on their crap.
Fact remains, the dems supported everything that happened until it became politically better to do otherwise.
Example, Bush mislead everyone and influenced intel BEFOR he was even considered and presidential canidate. We all know this because of statements made about SH by Kerry, Kennedy, Schumer et al. before Bush was even running.
Damn, he and Rove are good
Do you really like making yourself look silly?
Really ? How?
I can and have backed up what I post here. When I can you and yours make stupid shit statements like this so I ask. What did I say here (other than the sarcastic parts) do you think I cant back up?
The dates, and statements are there on the internet for all to see. I have posted them.
Sucks to be you
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
Lindsey 0
QuoteDo you think that congressional intelligence committee members that were briefed in detail about 30 times on the interrogations should be prosecuted? This would include the liberal darlings Rep Nancy Pelosi, Sen. John D. Rockefeller IV, and Rep. Jane Harman.
There are a bunch of posts since yours that I haven't read, but that ol' attention deficit thing is rearing its head...lol...or I'm using it as an excuse. Who knows?
But I think that people who are aware of atrocities and have some reasonable ability to prevent further offenses are responsible to do so. If they do not make some attempt, then they should also be held accountable to some degree also. Doesn't matter who they are.
~linz
--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail
funjumper101 15
We know this HOW? "It has been widely reported" simply doesn't mean much.
The more "widely reported" a story is, especially by Faux news, Newsmax, etc, AKA, those fine sources of accurate information (Bwa ha ha), the less likely that there is any basis in FACT, for those stories.
Righties read that "It isn't torture" and "Dems knew and approved of the torture", and parrot the talking points, like good little sheeple.
Wide reporting means bugger all in this day and age. The righties have proved that for them and theirs, if something is said or written, and repeated over and over again, with great emphasis, that it must be true. So they pretend like that which is demonstrably untrue, for example, "It wasn't torture", is a truthful statement, when that simply is a verifiable lie.
I have to believe that the righties really do know that they are wrong, but too weak of character to admit it.
nerdgirl 0
Quote
I can and have backed up what I post here.
Marc, perhaps I've missed it, which is entirely possible. Would you point me to a specific post, url or #, where any evidence that torture has been effective has been presented? Thank you.
/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
nerdgirl 0
Quote
I have to belive that the righties really do know that they are wrong, but too weak of character to admit it.
I'm not sure how you define "righties;" there have, however, been a number of individual conservatives and conservative-identified organizations who have opposed torture, including waterboarding and other euphemisms for torture.
E.g.,
Opposition to torture has long been a uniting, non-partisan issue across America. It's been one of the many things that makes America great! It's been a key part of President Reagan’s invocation John Winthrop’s vision for America to be that “shining city on a hill.”
/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
Remster 30
QuoteQuote
I can and have backed up what I post here.
Marc, perhaps I've missed it [snip]
That, right there, is comedy gold!
Remster
rushmc 23
QuoteQuote
I can and have backed up what I post here.
Marc, perhaps I've missed it, which is entirely possible. Would you point me to a specific post, url or #, where any evidence that torture has been effective has been presented? Thank you.
/Marg
If you are talking about my reply to jerry what ever his guber is, that is not what I was talking about. He and I had gone off topic......
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
rushmc 23
QuoteQuote
I have to belive that the righties really do know that they are wrong, but too weak of character to admit it.
I'm not sure how you define "righties;" there have, however, been a number of individual conservatives and conservative-identified organizations who have opposed torture, including waterboarding and other euphemisms for torture.
E.g.,5 Reasons Torture Is Always Wrong: And why there should be no exceptions Stand Up and Be Counted The Conservative Case Against Torture Torture and moral bankruptcy More on Torture On Bush's torture policies
Opposition to torture has long been a uniting, non-partisan issue across America. It's been one of the many things that makes America great! It's been a key part of President Reagan’s invocation John Winthrop’s vision for America to be that “shining city on a hill.”
/Marg
I do not like the position that indicates I support torture. I clearly do not but, there is a raging debate of what exactly torture is. I do not think waterboarding is. I think bambo under your nails is.........
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
jcd11235 0
QuoteI do not like the position that indicates I support torture. I clearly do not but, there is a raging debate of what exactly torture is. I do not think waterboarding is. I think bambo under your nails is.........
If one supports water boarding, they support torture, plain and simple. It is not legally ambiguous, despite what those blowhards Cheney, Yoo, et al. want to claim.
Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!
TomAiello 26
QuoteIf one supports water boarding, they support torture, plain and simple. It is not legally ambiguous, despite what those blowhards Cheney, Yoo, et al. want to claim.
That's really the issue under debate, isn't it?
Simply proclaiming "my view is right, despite what anyone else thinks" is fairly silly.
-- Tom Aiello
Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com
Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com
jcd11235 0
QuoteQuoteIf one supports water boarding, they support torture, plain and simple. It is not legally ambiguous, despite what those blowhards Cheney, Yoo, et al. want to claim.
That's really the issue under debate, isn't it?
Simply proclaiming "my view is right, despite what anyone else thinks" is fairly silly.
In a nation of laws, we give credence to law and legal precedent, even when it's not convenient. In this case, that precedent clearly shows water boarding to be torture. Again, There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!
TomAiello 26
QuoteAgain, There are none so blind as those who
will not seedo not agree with me.
Seriously, dude.
I am of the opinion that waterboarding is torture.
I still don't think simply proclaiming it to be so is terribly productive. And proclaiming that those who disagree with you are "blowhards" or whatever other name you want to call them is hardly a convincing argument.
-- Tom Aiello
Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com
Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com
jcd11235 0
QuoteSeriously, dude.
I am of the opinion that waterboarding is torture.
I still don't think simply proclaiming it to be so is terribly productive. And proclaiming that those who disagree with you are "blowhards" or whatever other name you want to call them is hardly a convincing argument.
I don't have to proclaim that water boarding is torture. Law and legal precedent have already established that to be the case. Ignoring such facts is what is unproductive. Convincing, well cited arguments have been given over and over and over again in multiple threads on the topic.
Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!
QuoteQuoteQuote
I have to belive that the righties really do know that they are wrong, but too weak of character to admit it.
I'm not sure how you define "righties;" there have, however, been a number of individual conservatives and conservative-identified organizations who have opposed torture, including waterboarding and other euphemisms for torture.
E.g.,5 Reasons Torture Is Always Wrong: And why there should be no exceptions Stand Up and Be Counted The Conservative Case Against Torture Torture and moral bankruptcy More on Torture On Bush's torture policies
Opposition to torture has long been a uniting, non-partisan issue across America. It's been one of the many things that makes America great! It's been a key part of President Reagan’s invocation John Winthrop’s vision for America to be that “shining city on a hill.”
/Marg
I do not like the position that indicates I support torture. I clearly do not but, there is a raging debate of what exactly torture is. I do not think waterboarding is. I think bambo under your nails is.........
Perhaps you can explain why the US imprisoned a Japanese (15 years hard labor) after WWII for waterboarding US POWs?
If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.
carmenc 0
QuoteQuoteQuote
I have to belive that the righties really do know that they are wrong, but too weak of character to admit it.
I'm not sure how you define "righties;" there have, however, been a number of individual conservatives and conservative-identified organizations who have opposed torture, including waterboarding and other euphemisms for torture.
E.g.,5 Reasons Torture Is Always Wrong: And why there should be no exceptions Stand Up and Be Counted The Conservative Case Against Torture Torture and moral bankruptcy More on Torture On Bush's torture policies
Opposition to torture has long been a uniting, non-partisan issue across America. It's been one of the many things that makes America great! It's been a key part of President Reagan’s invocation John Winthrop’s vision for America to be that “shining city on a hill.”
/Marg
I do not like the position that indicates I support torture. I clearly do not but, there is a raging debate of what exactly torture is. I do not think waterboarding is. I think bambo under your nails is.........
"Following World War II war crime trials were convened. The Japanese were tried and convicted and hung for war crimes committed against American POWs. Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding." Sen. John McCain, November 29, 2007, in St. Petersburg, Florida.
Quote
In a nation of laws, we give credence to law and legal precedent, even when it's not convenient.
Until, of course, they're rewritten or a new precedent is set... a vote is overturned, old laws are considered outdated or "not progressive..." Take your pick.
--------------------------------------------------
Stay positive and love your life.
QuoteQuoteI do not like the position that indicates I support torture. I clearly do not but, there is a raging debate of what exactly torture is. I do not think waterboarding is. I think bambo under your nails is.........
If one supports water boarding, they support torture, plain and simple. It is not legally ambiguous, despite what those blowhards Cheney, Yoo, et al. want to claim.
That would appeasr to be the position of the DoD's Joint Personnel Recovery Agency (the agency responsible for SERE training).
“The unintended consequence of a U.S. policy that provides for the torture of prisoners is that it could be used by our adversaries as justification for the torture of captured U.S. personnel,” Joint Personnel Recovery Agency memo, July 2002.
The memo goes on to say:
The requirement to obtain information from an uncooperative source as quickly as possible-in time to prevent, for example, an impending terrorist attack that could result in loss of life-has been forwarded as a compelling argument for the use of torture. Conceptually, proponents envision the application of torture as a means to expedite the exploitation process. In essence, physical and/or psychological duress are viewed as an alternative to the more time-consuming conventional interrogation process. The error inherent in this line of thinking is the assumption that, through torture, the interrogator can extract reliable and accurate intelligence. History and a consideration of human behavior would appear to refute this assumption. (NOTE: The application of physical and or psychological duress will likely result in physical compliance. Additionally, prisoners may answer and/or comply as a result of threats of torture. However, the reliability and accuracy information must be questioned.)
… upwards of 90 percent of interrogations have been successful through the exclusive use of a direct approach, where a degree of rapport is established with the prisoner. Once any means of duress has been purposefully applied to the prisoner, the formerly cooperative relationship can not be reestablished. In addition, the prisoner’s level of resolve to resist cooperating with the interrogator will likely be increased as a result of harsh or brutal treatment.
...
"The application of extreme physical and/or pyschological duress (torture) has some serious operational deficits, most notably the potential to result in unreliable information."
If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.
jcd11235 0
QuoteUntil, of course, they're rewritten or a new precedent is set... a vote is overturned, old laws are considered outdated or "not progressive..." Take your pick.
The Executive branch of the federal government, which includes the Justice Department, lacks the authority to do any of that.
Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!
Sorry. I can't read your mind. I just have to go by what you write.
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