Obama administration breaks with the years of 'climate change denial'

[lawrocket 3]

I don't like "cultist." I link "cult" with the likes of Jim Jones. Whereas "propogandists" are like legitimate religions that seek to provide salvation for everyone, and ridicule for those who refuse to go along with it.

Cults typically want to be left alone. They'll proselytize if given the chance but otherwise will be content knowing they are better than everyone else (think San Francisco liberal).

Conprogandists are like those who voted against Prop 8 - don't tell me how to fucking live. Propogandists are like those who supported Prop 8 - for the good of our children (interests of children was actually mentioned in this very thread) we must not condone how others live their lives.

So I want to drive my Volvo SUV. Others find this evil and destructive (some actually do, folks).

Now, of course, I will likely be taxed for my choice of crash survivability over killing the vineyards on the way to work. Well, I guess they'll do their best to force carbon neutrality, thus ensuring that only the wealthy can afford not to take public transportation. (Anybody with intelligience knows that the real intelligentia can be found downtown during the day. While we're at it, let's fuck the farmers. Anyone intelligent eouldnt be a farmer...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

And as for "sensible discussion" I believe that use of the term "deniers" effectively eliminates reasonable discussion.

The deniers' general failure to make their case in respected, peer refereed scientific journals is what eliminated reasonable discussion. Credible scientific research trumps op-eds when discussing topics of science.

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Of course, I believe this is the purpose. Whenever abverbs are put in to the statement, it is not about "objective.". [sic] It is about persuasion.

So, by your standards, I guess we can conclude your statement about reasonable discussion being eliminated was intended to be persuasive, not objective, since you used the adverb effectively. Of course, the multiple references to group masturbation are also a clear sign of an attempt at persuasion rather than an attempt to address the topic objectively.

More topically, studies published in respected, peer refereed scientific journals are objective. Op-eds decrying those who acknowledge reality as doomsayers are persuasion.

In other words, you're wrong, but for the right reason (except w/r/t adverb usage, where your error need not be qualified).

Quote

"The data suggest that the earth is warming" is radically different from "as the scientists have proved [sic][sic] global warming without a doubt."

Off topic, it's quite sad to see an attorney incorrectly attempt to correct grammar. Proved and proven are interchangeable as past participles of prove. Perhaps you should invest in one of these.

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It seems to me that discussion is over in your mind, except for the circle jerking.

For some people, the discussion is over in their minds. For some other people, the discussion is simply over their heads. Still others, particularly those who view the topic objectively, recognize that policy is open to public discussion, but the validity of scientific research is something for scientists to determine.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Beachbum 0]

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Still others, particularly those who view the topic objectively, recognize that policy is open to public discussion, but the validity of scientific research is something for scientists to determine.

What??? You mean you climate change/GW isn't a purely political discussion?? Science and fact are to be involved??? I am shocked!!!

Thanks for the link about Jackson. I had no clue her track record was so poor, and I certainly hope it improves now!

As for the polar caps, I can't claim to have tracked down all of the data and calculated the totals, but I'm willing to bet that the overall loss far outweighs any gains made. Ice that has been in place for centuries is disappearing.

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[NewGuy2005 53]

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Okay. You've got your term - "deniers.". I think the other side needs a term.

Thus, let the "deniers" call the other side "propogandists."

How about "Global Warming Evangelicals?"

[1969912 0]

I'm a Denier Sympathizer. Can I be tried as a criminal by the UN? Be put on a watchlist?

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[warpedskydiver 0]

If anyone cares to look into who the scientists are that signed the petition that says GW is a hoax perpetuated upon civilization to the tune of 8 trillion dollars now, you might want to have a look.

Of course if you CHOOSE not to check into the petition that says GW is a scam, you will most likely assume that you know more than the scientists that signed that petition.

There are unknowns and some well known scientists.

Take a look at the very first signature and tell me that you are smarter than he is so I can laugh at you for being such a blatant delusional.

[lawrocket 3]

Bohr was a denier.

Or was it Einstein who was thje denier???

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,070]

>If anyone cares to look into who the scientists are that signed the petition
> that says GW is a hoax perpetuated upon civilization to the tune of 8
>trillion dollars now, you might want to have a look.

Yep. IIRC, the Spice Girls and all the characters of M*A*S*H signed that one. Authoritative sources to be sure.

>Of course if you CHOOSE not to check into the petition that says GW is a
>scam, you will most likely assume that you know more than the scientists
>that signed that petition.

I think even you know more about climate change than Ginger Spice.

[rushmc 23]

Key Obama Climate Change Exchange Being Swayed by Top U.N. Officials
Five members of the Chicago Climate Exchange advisory board are present or former top-ranking U.N. officials -- including one who received $1 million from a convicted South Korean lobbyist in the Oil for Food scandal.


Monday, April 20, 2009



A greenhouse gases trading system funded with the support of then-Illinois State Sen. Barack Obama, which is likely to play a major role in his $650 million cap-and-trade initiative, lists five present or former top-ranking U.N. officials on its advisory board who've had enormous influence over climate change matters -- including one who received $1 million from a convicted South Korean lobbyist.

The most controversial figure of the five, Maurice Strong, was one of former Secretary General Kofi Annan's key aides at the U.N. for years until the Iraq Oil-for-Food scandal forced him to leave. Since then Strong has lived mostly in China. Calls to the exchange for comment about Strong's role, and that of other U.N. figures, were not returned.

The Climate Exchange, which began operations in 2003, provides trading in carbon emissions and their offsets, along with those of other greenhouse gases, is among a group of companies and institutions that voluntarily participate in the program. It bills itself as the only voluntary, legally binding exchange of its kind in North America. Among its member companies are Ford, DuPont and United Technologies as well as a number of electric utilities; other participants include the City of Chicago and Miami-Dade County.

In the latest budget submitted to Congress last month, President Obama proposed backing cap and trade as the nation's primary response to reduce global warming; a bill with that aim has also been submitted in the House of Representatives. Under the cap and trade plan a fixed number of carbon producing "permissions" would be made available to manufacturing and other industries each year; the totals would be reduced over time, forcing down the overall total of carbon dioxide emissions.

To meet their targets, companies would either have to cut production of the offending carbon-based gases or buy "offsets," or credits from companies that do not reach their allowed levels or actively create projects that reduce carbon in the atmosphere. Offsets also include planting trees and other activities that remove carbon from the atmosphere. However it is used, the scheme is guaranteed to boost the cost of fossil and other gas producing forms of energy in the U.S., as well as the costs of every economic sector that relies on that energy.

The likelihood of cap and trade or a similar scheme being enacted got a significant boost last week, when the Environmental Protection Agency officially announced that greenhouse gases pose a threat to public health and welfare via global warming, a prelude to official regulation of the emissions.

The Chicago Climate Exchange is the brainchild of Richard Sandor, an economics professor who has worked for the both the Chicago Mercantile Association and the Chicago Board of Trade. Known as "Mr. Derivative," for his work in creating interest rate futures markets, Sandor first proposed the creation of the climate exchange in 2000, just before the signing of the Kyoto Accord on greenhouse gas reduction.

Initial funding of almost $1 million which was crucial to the exchange's launch came in 2000 and 2001 from the Chicago-based Joyce Foundation, whose board of directors, which approved the funding, included Barack Obama, then an Illinois state senator.

Click here to read about Obama's early connections to cap and trade.

Paula DiPerna, the Joyce Foundation's president at the time funding was approved, became the Climate Exchange's vice president by the time the foundation gave a second, and larger, tranche of money to the budding venture. Barack Obama, by that time an Illinois state legislator, was still on the foundation board.

Along with Maurice Strong, the other current or former U.N. officials on the climate exchange's 18-member advisory board are: Elizabeth Dowdeswell, former head of the UN Environmental Program (UNEP); Rajenra Pachauri, head of the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change; Michael Jammit Cutajar, former executive director of the U.N. Framework Convention for Climate Change (UNFCCC); and Thomas Lovejoy, former science adviser to UNEP and currently senior adviser to the president of the U.N. Foundation, which was originally founded with a $1 billion gift from CNN founder Ted Turner. The foundation calls itself "an advocate for the U.N. and a platform for connecting people, ideas and resources to help the United Nations solve global problems."

On one level Strong's involvement in the exchange is not surprising. He has been a player in virtually all the U.N.'s environmental initiatives over the past four decades. His work includes organizing the 1972 U.N. conference on the environment in Stockholm, which was a launch pad for the worldwide environmental movement, as well as the 1992 Earth Summit and the Kyoto Accords.

The New York Times once called Strong, a native Canadian, "The Custodian of the Planet." In 1972 Strong also became the first head of the United Nations Environmental Program. In 1997, he helped Annan launch a program of internal reform of the U.N., and subsequently served as Annan's special envoy to North Korea.

Strong left the U.N. under a cloud in 2005, after an investigation into the corruption ravaged Oil-for-Food Program revealed that he had received nearly $1 million in cash from Tongsun Park, a South Korean businessman who was later convicted of conspiring to bribe U.N. officials who ran the program. Strong claimed that the money was an investment by Park in a company owned by Strong's son. He admitted personally taking other money from Park but claimed it was for an "office rental." After the revelations Strong resigned his last U.N. post as Annan's North Korea envoy and moved to China.

Contacted to comment on his involvement in the exchange, Strong originally agreed to accept a list of questions from FOX News. However, after receiving the e-mail, he failed to respond. Among the questions: What was his role on the advisory board? Because President Obama was involved in the early funding of the exchange, did he meet with members of the exchange? Is Strong involved in setting up a similar exchange in China?

The Climate Exchange's 18-member advisory board is made up of leaders in business, science and academia. According to interviews with members who cooperated more than Strong did, membership is an unpaid position and the advisory board rarely meets. It was originally used to advise the company on "procedures and standards," such as calculating carbon emissions and setting prices, when the company was being formed, according to one participant. Today most of the advisory board's work is done over the phone on an as-needed basis, according to a board member.

Also on the board of advisors is another Canadian and close associate of Strong's: Elizabeth Dowdeswell, another former head of the United Nation's Environmental Program who is remembered for leading the organization into the deepest crisis in its history during her five-year tenure from 1993 to 1998.

In 1997, the State Department charged that the UNEP under Dowdeswell's tenure suffered "from a lack of focus, strategic vision and influence." It also charged that the organization had been "marginalized to a perilous extent." As a result of the crisis of confidence in her leadership both the US and Britain threatened to withhold funding from the organization.

Dowdeswell, a former school teacher and home economist, was also attacked by environmentalists, financial donors, governments and her own staff for inept management that left the agency "irrelevant," according to critics.

In response to the firestorm of criticism Dowdeswell announced that she wouldn't seek a second term in the UNEP position.

Her record shows that she has often followed in Strong's footsteps. She spent much of her early career as a Canadian bureaucrat in the environmental field dominated by Strong. Her public career began as Saskatchewan's deputy minister for youth and culture and later Canada's deputy assistant minister of Environment. From there she followed Strong to the United Nation's Environment Program as executive director, a post that Strong had created and previously held. She was involved with him in organizing the Rio Summit.

Dowdeswell was also sent a list of questions about her involvement with the Chicago Climate Exchange. She has not responded.

Another member of the advisory board is Rajendra Kumar Pachauri, who has headed the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change since May 2002. The panel was co-recipient, with Al Gore, of the Nobel Peace Prize in 2007 for bringing global warming to the top of the world's agenda.

The panel's reports over a 10 year period tracked scientific studies and in 2007 concluded that the weight of scientific evidence now showed not only that global warming was occurring, but that it was a man-made phenomenon and that its consequences were immediate and dire. The reports have become the basis for all the proposals to bring about drastic reductions in man-made greenhouse gases, starting immediately.

But the panel's conclusions did not come without major controversy.

The IPCC reports, compiled by hundreds of scientists around the world, were meant to provide definitive up-to-date answers to questions about global warming based on current scientific data. Yet when the reports were issued, a number of scientists who had contributed to them challenged the conclusions.

They charged that Pachauri, who is an economist and industrial engineer and not a climate scientist, had written the final draft of the report in collaboration with other political figures before it was released, adding errors and unsubstantiated conclusions. The critics also charged that he had over-stepped the mandate of the IPCC by advocating policy, something the panel was supposed to avoid.

In January 2005 Chrisopher Landsea, a leading hurricane expert with National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration resigned from work on the IPCC report, saying that it was "both being motivated by pre-conceived agendas and being scientifically unsound." He said that the panel had deliberately linked recent hurricane severity with global warming when no scientific link had been established.

Pachauri is enthusiastic about his involvement with the Chicago exchange. "I believe the exchange has an extremely important role in view of President Obama's inclusion of cap and trade in the new budget. I see it emerging as the principal market in the U.S. and beyond when cap and trade becomes a reality," he said in response to questions submitted by FOX News.

He said he joined the exchange board in December 2006 at the invitation of the exchange's founder, Richard Sandor. He said the advisory board is "designed to consist of thought leaders in the environmental, business, public policy and academic fields from India and all around the world."

He also said that he has no financial interest in the exchange or any other role except to provide advice. However, he was hopeful that the exchange would become a powerful force in the global marketplace.

Malta native Michael Jammit Cutajar was a former Assistant Secretary General of the UN and the former executive director of the United Nations Framework Convention for Climate Change (UNFCCC) until his retirement from the UN in early 2002. The UNFCCC is supposed to keep the Kyoto Accords process moving forward by setting up meeting between member states. It is currently organizing a major summit on climate change in Copenhagen later this year, where a successor to the Kyoto Accords is expected to be drafted and signed.

Currently Malta's Ambassador on Climate Change, Cutajar most recently chaired a U.N. forum on climate change in Bonn where unsuccessful negotiations took place to update the greenhouse gas emission cuts promised by participants at Kyoto. He too was sent a list of questions by FOX NEWS and has not responded.

The fifth former UN official on the board is Thomas Lovejoy, who says he was also recruited by Sandor after giving a talk about the need for a carbon exchange "years ago" at the University of Oklahoma. Lovejoy said he served as science advisor to UNEP while Dowdeswell was in charge.

He is also chief biodiversity advisor to the World Bank and senior adviser to the president of the United Nations Foundation. He is noted for developing "debt-for-nature swaps," under which environmental groups purchase troubled foreign debt at low prices. They then convert the discounted debt into local currency to purchase environmentally sensitive tracts of land. Critics of the scheme argue that the plan deprives poor nations of a chance to extract raw materials that are critical to their economic growth.

Lovejoy says he has not had the same depth of involvement in the exchange as many others on the board because his scientific specialty is forests and the exchange is just beginning to look into reforestation as part of the cap and trade process.

He says his involvement is voluntary, unpaid and that there are few meetings. "We are called as needed," he said.

"I just wanted to see if it works," he said in a phone interview.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/20/key-obama-climate-change-exchange-swayed-officials/

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[warpedskydiver 0]

Quote

>If anyone cares to look into who the scientists are that signed the petition
> that says GW is a hoax perpetuated upon civilization to the tune of 8
>trillion dollars now, you might want to have a look.

Yep. IIRC, the Spice Girls and all the characters of M*A*S*H signed that one. Authoritative sources to be sure.

>Of course if you CHOOSE not to check into the petition that says GW is a
>scam, you will most likely assume that you know more than the scientists
>that signed that petition.

I think even you know more about climate change than Ginger Spice.

Obviously you did not look at the petition.

The guy who was the first signatory on that petition was someone who's intellect is so impressive you could only hope to stand in his shadow.

[TrophyHusband 0]

Quote

What is the average airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?

african or european?

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[warpedskydiver 0]

In order to keep you from further humiliating yourself I will let you all in on who it was..

Dr. Edward Teller PhD.

[billvon 3,070]

>Obviously you did not look at the petition.

And obviously you missed the point.

Since the characters of M*A*S*H don't really exist, it means people made up the names and posted them on there. And if you can make up names, then the made up name of Dr. Edward Teller is just as authoritative as the made up name of Dr. Geri Halliwell (i.e. Ginger Spice.)

The author of that petition has admitted that he was duped. Looks like you were too.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Citation?

[billvon 3,070]

>Citation?

"Several environmental groups questioned dozens of the names: "Perry S. Mason" (the fictitious lawyer?), "Michael J. Fox" (the actor?), "Robert C. Byrd" (the senator?), "John C. Grisham" (the lawyer-author?). And then there's the Spice Girl, a k a. Geraldine Halliwell: The petition listed "Dr. Geri Halliwell" and "Dr. Halliwell."

Asked about the pop singer, Robinson said he was duped. The returned petition, one of thousands of mailings he sent out, identified her as having a degree in microbiology and living in Boston. "When we're getting thousands of signatures there's no way of filtering out a fake," he said."

[warpedskydiver 0]

I am asking you for a citation that proves Dr. Edward teller is NOT a factual signatory on that petition.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Quote

>Citation?

"Several environmental groups questioned dozens of the names: "Perry S. Mason" (the fictitious lawyer?), "Michael J. Fox" (the actor?), "Robert C. Byrd" (the senator?), "John C. Grisham" (the lawyer-author?). And then there's the Spice Girl, a k a. Geraldine Halliwell: The petition listed "Dr. Geri Halliwell" and "Dr. Halliwell."

Asked about the pop singer, Robinson said he was duped. The returned petition, one of thousands of mailings he sent out, identified her as having a degree in microbiology and living in Boston. "When we're getting thousands of signatures there's no way of filtering out a fake," he said."

Perhaps some environMENTALISTs screwed up the petition purposely?

[billvon 3,070]

>I am asking you for a citation that proves Dr. Edward teller is NOT a
>factual signatory on that petition.

?? I didn't claim any such proof. I claimed that the author of the petition has admitted that he has been duped by fictitious people, and not everyone on the list is real.

When the author of a petition admits that it is fake, not much point in doing further research (IMO.)

[billvon 3,070]

>Perhaps some environMENTALISTs screwed up the petition purposely?

I suspect people on both sides lied purposely, each for their own purposes. Which is one reason "science by petition" is a stupid idea.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Quote

>Perhaps some environMENTALISTs screwed up the petition purposely?

I suspect people on both sides lied purposely, each for their own purposes. Which is one reason "science by petition" is a stupid idea.

In other words you cannot provide PROOF that Dr. Edward teller one of many REAL scientists, is not a false signatory.

Did you know that he can in fact be contacted through Sandia?

[billvon 3,070]

>In other words you cannot provide PROOF that Dr. Edward teller one of many
>REAL scientists, is not a false signatory.

Nor can you prove that he actually signed it.

Now, what sort of credence should you put on a situation like that, where there is no proof that someone signed something and no proof that he didn't?

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Quote

>Perhaps some environMENTALISTs screwed up the petition purposely?

I suspect people on both sides lied purposely, each for their own purposes. Which is one reason "science by petition" is a stupid idea.

In other words you cannot provide PROOF that Dr. Edward teller one of many REAL scientists, is not a false signatory.

Did you know that he can in fact be contacted through Sandia?

So is he the head of the Dr Strangelove Climate Research Center????

[billvon 3,070]

>Did you know that he can in fact be contacted through Sandia?

I think that perhaps the denier websites you're looking at are not the best source of information. He's dead, and has been since 2003.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

>Did you know that he can in fact be contacted through Sandia?

I think that perhaps the denier websites you're looking at are not the best source of information. He's dead, and has been since 2003.

Well maybe they have someone there who can channel his spirit.....

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

Quote

>Perhaps some environMENTALISTs screwed up the petition purposely?

I suspect people on both sides lied purposely, each for their own purposes. Which is one reason "science by petition" is a stupid idea.

In other words you cannot provide PROOF that Dr. Edward teller one of many REAL scientists, is not a false signatory.

Did you know that he can in fact be contacted through Sandia?

When was the petition in question started? (I honestly dunno).

Since Teller died in 2003, if the petition was started after September 2003, Dr. Teller is unlikely to have signed it.

Considering that the last paper published to which Dr. Teller contributed (it was published posthumously) was a proposed solution to anthropogenic climate change and the eventual depletion of fossil fuels, I suspect the weight of evidence leans toward a forgery.

Abstract:

Quote

“This paper addresses the problems posed by running out of oil and gas supplies and the environmental problems that are due to greenhouse gases by suggesting the use of the energy available in the resource thorium, which is much more plentiful than the conventional nuclear fuel uranium. We propose the burning of this thorium dissolved as a fluoride in molten salt in the minimum viscosity mixture of LiF and BeF{sub 2} together with a small amount of {sup 235}U or plutonium fluoride to initiate the process to be located at least 10 m underground. The fission products could be stored at the same underground location. With graphite replacement or new cores and with the liquid fuel transferred to the new cores periodically, the power plant could operate for up to 200 yr with no transport of fissile material to the reactor or of wastes from the reactor during this period. Advantages that include utilization of an abundant fuel, inaccessibility of that fuel to terrorists or for diversion to weapons use, together with good economics and safety features such as an underground location will diminish public concerns. We call for the construction of a small prototype thorium-burning reactor.

As far back as the 1990s, Teller was proposing technical solutions to global warming.

Abstract:

Quote

As the human population of Earth continues to expand and to demand an ever-higher quality-of-life, requirements for ever-greater knowledge--and then control--of the future of the state of the terrestrial biosphere grow apace. Convenience of living--and, indeed, reliability of life itself--become ever more highly ''tuned'' to the future physical condition of the biosphere being knowable and not markedly different than the present one. Two years ago, we reported at a quantitative albeit conceptual level on technical ways-and-means of forestalling large-scale changes in the present climate, employing practical means of modulating insolation and/or the Earth's mean albedo. Last year, we reported on early work aimed at developing means for creating detailed, high-fidelity, all-Earth weather forecasts of two weeks duration, exploiting recent and anticipated advances in extremely high-performance digital computing and in atmosphere-observing Earth satellites bearing high-technology instrumentation. This year, we report on recent progress in both of these areas of endeavor. Preventing the commencement of large-scale changes in the current climate presently appears to be a considerably more interesting prospect than initially realized, as modest insolation reductions are model-predicted to offset the anticipated impacts of ''global warming'' surprisingly precisely, in both space and time. Also, continued study has not revealed any fundamental difficulties in any of the means proposed for insolation modulation and, indeed, applicability of some of these techniques to other planets in the inner Solar system seems promising. Implementation of the high-fidelity, long-range weather-forecasting capability presently appears substantially easier with respect to required populations of Earth satellites and atmospheric transponders and data-processing systems, and more complicated with respect to transponder lifetimes in the actual atmosphere; overall, the enterprise seems more technically feasible than originally anticipated.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying