jshaver123 0 #1 May 4, 2009 Today as a finale paper in my economic class, I was given an assignment to create a Economic System that successfully runs for 150 years... I have yet to find away.... Any opinions on what you think would be needed.... Since my research shows that no economic systems has ever ran 150 years I'm thinking this is an assignment based on backing which economic system is best... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #2 May 4, 2009 go simple barter lasted for centuries before governments started mucking about in it ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jshaver123 0 #3 May 4, 2009 I was thinking along that line but in one of our stipulations the economic system has to have value growth and with the barter system.... Under barter system there was no measure of value. Even if two persons met together who wanted each other goods, they could not find a satisfactory equilibrium price. Under such conditions one party had to suffer. Or, It was difficult to divide a commodity without loss in its value e.g., a man who wants to purchase cloth equal to half the value of his cow and other commodities for the rest half value of cow; he could not divide his cow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #4 May 4, 2009 what do you mean 'one party has to suffer' if two parties agree to a straight barter? surely it's the perfect trade?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jshaver123 0 #5 May 4, 2009 Lets say the value of cotton... Cotton from one person to another would be different.... If you dont have any cotton and you need it all you have is a cow to barter with than u may have to get more cotton than need since he cant get the man half his cow... Barter also can produce scarcity as economic system... If one man owns a majority of wheat he can ban with other people who own food supplies such as cattle and other food sources to get what he wants and to control people..... I actually like the barter system but within 50 or so years you would have people controlling goods and producing scarcity.... I have ran it through a model before posting on here and didnt seem to work the ten times i ran it.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #6 May 4, 2009 the problems you put forward also apply to monetary systems. if two parties have two products that they agree to directly barter (say five apples for four oranges) surely that is the perfect trade? - direct and immediate satisfaction of wants.stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,994 #7 May 4, 2009 >If you dont have any cotton and you need it all you have is a cow to >barter with than u may have to get more cotton than need since he cant >get the man half his cow... Right. Or you get more cotton so you can trade some of that for corn. That's the most basic level of barter. At the next level of money you have commodity money. You choose something that has a high intrinsic value - gold, salt, germanium, lithium, oil, whatever - and you trade that if you don't want all that cotton. You get some cotton and some gold. (Or all gold.) Since everyone wants gold people are willing to trade you for it, and it's easier to carry than the cow. You could even make coins out of the gold that have a fixed weight and therefore value, and thus make fraud a little harder. The next level is representative money. The most basic level of this is a system where everyone writes checks for everything; the check represents value redeemable in gold, or salt, or whatever. Banks then keep track of it all (and protect your gold) for a fee. A more advanced version of this would be a 'bank note' that represents $10 worth of gold (for example.) The next level is fiat money, where the government passes a law that says "this piece of paper is worth X and you have to use it." It is not backed up by anything; just by law. So you have a lot of options. You don't have to take all the cotton. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #8 May 4, 2009 QuoteI was given an assignment to create a Economic System that successfully runs for 150 years... Gold-pressed Latium . . . definitely.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #9 May 4, 2009 Quote>If you dont have any cotton and you need it all you have is a cow to >barter with than u may have to get more cotton than need since he cant >get the man half his cow... Right. Or you get more cotton so you can trade some of that for corn. That's the most basic level of barter. At the next level of money you have commodity money. You choose something that has a high intrinsic value - gold, salt, germanium, lithium, oil, whatever - and you trade that if you don't want all that cotton. You get some cotton and some gold. (Or all gold.) Since everyone wants gold people are willing to trade you for it, and it's easier to carry than the cow. You could even make coins out of the gold that have a fixed weight and therefore value, and thus make fraud a little harder. The next level is representative money. The most basic level of this is a system where everyone writes checks for everything; the check represents value redeemable in gold, or salt, or whatever. Banks then keep track of it all (and protect your gold) for a fee. A more advanced version of this would be a 'bank note' that represents $10 worth of gold (for example.) The next level is fiat money, where the government passes a law that says "this piece of paper is worth X and you have to use it." It is not backed up by anything; just by law. So you have a lot of options. You don't have to take all the cotton. between simple barter and commodity money i would put another step - barter trading. a barter trader will know several other parties and swap one good for another between them to end up with a 'profit'stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,994 #10 May 4, 2009 >a barter trader will know several other parties and swap one good >for another between them to end up with a 'profit' Right - but to do that you generally have to introduce the concept of "credit" (or "deposit") where an agreed-to unit of value is placed "in storage" or loaned out for the purposes of facilitating the barter. In the real world the trader would tell someone "give me that cow and I'll give you 10 pounds of beans and 5 pounds of corn when Jacob comes in." Which also works fine but is a step up from straight barter, since deposit/credit are pretty advanced financial concepts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #11 May 4, 2009 Quote>a barter trader will know several other parties and swap one good >for another between them to end up with a 'profit' Right - but to do that you generally have to introduce the concept of "credit" (or "deposit") where an agreed-to unit of value is placed "in storage" or loaned out for the purposes of facilitating the barter. In the real world the trader would tell someone "give me that cow and I'll give you 10 pounds of beans and 5 pounds of corn when Jacob comes in." Which also works fine but is a step up from straight barter, since deposit/credit are pretty advanced financial concepts. the critical bit here is 'when jacob comes in'. here the goods are not directly traded but there is a time element introduced. to represent this time element some sort of token will be given - saying 'i promise to give the bearer of this token a cow at the agreed date' - voila, money is created.stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #12 May 4, 2009 1) Steal Underpants 2) ???? 3) Profit You just gotta figure out step 2, & you got a friggin' Utopia! Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #13 May 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteI was given an assignment to create a Economic System that successfully runs for 150 years... Gold-pressed Latium . . . definitely. and, if Douglas Adams has taught us anything, it's that leaves do NOT make good fiat money. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jshaver123 0 #14 May 4, 2009 Here is where the barter system gets really screwed up in todays world.... The barter system was great when we weren't so advanced... We now travel by car, plane and boats.... (and soon to be time machines lol) We live in a world not with simple life but technical life... We have computers, refrigerators, tvs, so how would you go about trading these as u need many items to make these and many people or machines to make them and need many different items to build the assembly lines and so an so on and so on.... this is why it fails as a system at 50 years.... My other option ive been trying is communism. Communism can work for bout 100 years but fails due in part to peoples inherent need for power... I thinking im comming to the conclusion that there is no economic system that can successfully run for 150 years in todays world.... im going to try a couple more models and see will report back with my conclusions Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,994 #15 May 4, 2009 > Communism can work for bout 100 years but fails due in part to > peoples inherent need for power... I think it fails because there's not much incentive to do anything. (Other than "the good of society" which doesn't work for most people.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #16 May 4, 2009 QuoteHere is where the barter system gets really screwed up in todays world.... The barter system was great when we weren't so advanced... We now travel by car, plane and boats.... (and soon to be time machines lol) We live in a world not with simple life but technical life... We have computers, refrigerators, tvs, so how would you go about trading these as u need many items to make these and many people or machines to make them and need many different items to build the assembly lines and so an so on and so on.... this is why it fails as a system at 50 years.... we have very good computers that can process vast amounts of information. computers can/will be used to replace money by assembling 'barter trade routes' for anything we would like to build.stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jshaver123 0 #17 May 4, 2009 the incentive is to stay in the community or country... With the advancements in technology today everyone could live in a 3 bedroom 2 story house with a great standard of living while doing something in the community they enjoy.... But yes i can see where incentive to some people would ruin the system.... This project suxs and it counts for 60 percent of final grade in my economics course I dont wanna have to take another semester Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jshaver123 0 #18 May 4, 2009 Yes the barter trade routes.... I thought about that to... BUt with the same advancements in technology we have hackers... That could alter the route to them a stockpile goods.... Also theft and misuse of the barter trade route could lead to utter Chaos Explain the barter trade routes a little more to what your saying and Ill see how it fits into the model... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,994 #19 May 4, 2009 >With the advancements in technology today everyone could live in a 3 >bedroom 2 story house with a great standard of living while doing >something in the community they enjoy.... Yes, they could. But if that's all they get, why would they work hard? Why not just do the bare minimum to keep yourself here and watch TV the rest of the time? Why knock yourself out if you're not going to be rewarded any more than the guy down the block who's drunk all the time? If you're going to make communism work, you have to add some kind of incentive system. Maybe not wages per se but something similar. AFAIK, such an incentive program (official or unofficial, fair or corrupt) has been part of every large-scale communist society. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #20 May 4, 2009 QuoteIf you're going to make communism work, you have to add some kind of incentive system. If you want to make communism work, you just have to reduce it to a small enough scale. Virtually every economy in the world has micro-communism at it's foundational level, generally amongst family units, but sometimes in slightly larger groups. Even a purely capitalistic system (which has never existed) would still be likely to retain a large amount of family-level communism. Why take the communism out to the level where it breaks down? Leave it where it works incredibly well--at the level of very small groups.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,994 #21 May 4, 2009 >Virtually every economy in the world has micro-communism at it's >foundational level, generally amongst family units, but sometimes in >slightly larger groups. Agreed. Heck, here in the US, our national park system is communistic, and it works OK. There's nothing inherently wrong with communism - it's just a bad macroeconomic system when used on a large scale. (Not to say that capitalism is great, either. It's just better than the alternatives.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #22 May 4, 2009 QuoteHeck, here in the US, our national park system is communistic, and it works OK. I realize you threw that out there as bait, but suffice to say that I obviously disagree that the NPS is even remotely "OK."-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jshaver123 0 #23 May 5, 2009 UH oh im getting closer 123 years this time. but now getting less this sucks.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #24 May 5, 2009 I hope you write your paper more carefully than you write your posts.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 5 #25 May 5, 2009 http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/ Coco Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
