wmw999 2,447 #51 May 13, 2009 Part of this discussion is about what constitutes abuse or mistreatment. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #52 May 13, 2009 QuotePart of this discussion is about what constitutes abuse or mistreatment. Wendy P. Yes it does"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #53 May 13, 2009 QuoteThey broke so many laws and raped our constitution ALL politicians do that. I don't think the Bush administration was any more or less guilty of it than any other administration in the last 80 years (including the present administration).-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #54 May 13, 2009 Quote And liberals do like inclusiveness pretty much across the board You ought to clarify what you mean by "liberals" here. The least inclusive, most dogmatic, most highly prejudging people I've ever encountered almost universally self-identified as "liberal."-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #55 May 13, 2009 Quote Quote And liberals do like inclusiveness pretty much across the board You ought to clarify what you mean by "liberals" here. The least inclusive, most dogmatic, most highly prejudging people I've ever encountered almost universally self-identified as "liberal." It's been just the opposite experience for me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,447 #56 May 13, 2009 Oh, they're dogmatic all right . But it's probably partly what I'm comfortable with, so it sounds inclusive to me. That whole perspective thing. I was thinking more of the vocal liberal mainstream than the way-left wienies. To me, the worst of them are the "management is always wrong and evil, unions are the only way to go" types. There aren't as many dogmatic "conservatives suck" types on the radio, either. And anyway, I'm typing things offhand on the internet . Consider the source Wendy P. There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #57 May 13, 2009 Ok. Call me a hypocrite. I'll admit to it. I found an instance for which I would support waterboarding. Then again, he did actually ask for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #58 May 13, 2009 Quote Quote I liked the quote the other day from Jesse Ventura: "Give me a waterboard and thirty minutes and I'll have him confessing to the Sharon Tate murders." Yeah, Jesse is a goof a lot of the time; but that one is gold. Oh, this is good!!!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoqmH49VBC0 Thanks for bringing this to my attention! Dude thanks for that link. i had not seen that.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #59 May 13, 2009 QuoteSenator McCain isn't much of a Republican, and Colin Powell has abandoned the party. Gov. Crist isn't it. Gov. Palin isn't it, even though she was the single revitalizing element of the McCain campaign, Gov. Jindal isn't it, Rep. Ryan isn't it (though I'm digging the gentleman from Wisconsin) et al. None of these people have been able to strike a new match. Are you talking about the conservative movement (which actually looks pretty active and energetic to me) or the Republican party? In any two party system (which is almost a foregone outcome of FPTP voting like we have here), the parties will always be big tents, often to a great degree. The current "Republican" alliance seems, to me, to consist of three major portions: Neo-Conservative Foreign Policy Hawks: These guys are best exemplified by the Project for the New American Century. They are most strongly identified with a muscular defense and an assertive foreign policy. Dick Cheney is almost the embodiment of this faction. Personally, I have very little use for them, and I wish that the Republicans would jettison them (and trade them for the social liberals, like the gay rights activists). I'd argue that these folks are the antithesis of limited government, because almost all their objectives are supported by a larger, more powerful government. Social Conservatives (aka the Religious Right, or the Moral Majority): These are the people who genuinely believe in their faith, and in it's ability to guide public policy. Sarah Palin is probably their best-recognized face these days. I'm a bit uneasy with them (I'm an atheist) but I think that mostly what they want is to be left alone to run their own lives/families/churches in accordance with the precepts of their faith, and I can absolutely get behind that goal. I do wish they'd realize that they are usually in the minority on a national level, and drop any desire to impose their morality on others, but the truth is that most of the social conservatives I know personally have almost no desire to impose their morality on others, so I don't think that's much of a stretch. Libertarians: These guys pretty much hate government. They think that government almost universally does bad stuff, and is used as a tool by whoever controls it (the American Oligarchy, if you will) to oppress the majority of people and force them to do things that they don't really want to do. Think Ron Paul, but also (and less marginalized) Tom Campbell, Phil Gramm or Mike Huffington. These are the "less government!" types, and often include both fiscal conservatives (who don't want to pay taxes) and social liberals (who don't want other people telling them who or what they cannot put into their bed or their bong). I'm one of these. Obviously, there's a lot of over-simplifying here, and many people fall into more than one group. But the simplification is useful (and accurate enough) for many discussions. The reason that I vote for Republican candidates far more often than Democrats is because of the exact point you made: the unifying principle of the Democratic party appears to be a belief that government is the solution to our problems--which is the antithesis of my personal beliefs. In my view, the Neo-Con Foreign Policy guys (like Dick Cheney) are the ones who've lost the public's confidence. Because of circumstances (9/11) they were the leading force of the party in the Bush years, and are also bearing the brunt of the public's ire (fairly or not) over the various foreign engagements we're currently involved in. Because of this, they are exactly the wrong spokesmen for the larger group (the Republican alliance). What the Republicans ought to be doing is pushing forward the party's other faces, both because they can re-capture some public support and also because--let's face it--opposition parties don't make foreign policy, which is their area of expertise.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,994 #60 May 13, 2009 Cheney's spirited defense of torture is one of the factors that is going to keep the republican party at their current approval ratings (currently 14%.) I keep hoping the GOP will jettison all these anchors around its neck and get back in the game; a one-party system is not good for the US. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #61 May 13, 2009 QuoteQuoteMarc, my question for you is this: If you were being held as a POW and your captors began waterboarding YOU, would your opinion of your captors go down, remain the same, or actually go up? You are serious? You really think that the captors should care what their prisoner thinks of them? Really, are you serious? fuck yes, i'm serious, but let me rephrase the question...maybe, just maybe, for ONCE on this board, you'll answer me directly... If you had a friend who was a POW and his captors used waterboarding on HIM...would your opinion of the culture and people represented by his captors go down, up or remain the same had they NOT used waterboarding? simple multiple choice question.Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #62 May 13, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Marc, my question for you is this: If you were being held as a POW and your captors began waterboarding YOU, would your opinion of your captors go down, remain the same, or actually go up? You are serious? You really think that the captors should care what their prisoner thinks of them? Really, are you serious? fuck yes, i'm serious, but let me rephrase the question...maybe, just maybe, for ONCE on this board, you'll answer me directly... If you had a friend who was a POW and his captors used waterboarding on HIM...would your opinion of the culture and people represented by his captors go down, up or remain the same had they NOT used waterboarding? simple multiple choice question. I will assume we were at war and he was caught as such. If waterboarding was the worse thing they did I would be thankful. You know, in most cases our enemies cut of thier fucking heads.Direct enough answer for you?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #63 May 13, 2009 QuoteCheney's spirited defense of torture is one of the factors that is going to keep the republican party at their current approval ratings (currently 14%.) I keep hoping the GOP will jettison all these anchors around its neck and get back in the game; a one-party system is not good for the US. If he is so bad for the R's why dont the D's shut up and let him kill the party?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #64 May 13, 2009 sure, and you proved to me that you COMPLETELY missed the point of the question at the same time.Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #65 May 13, 2009 Quotesure, and you proved to me that you COMPLETELY missed the point of the question at the same time. Not at all. I dont acept the premise under which you lay out the question I directly answered your question. YOU just dont like the answer when placed in the proper context. Get over it."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #66 May 13, 2009 oh right, i forgot that YOUR context is the only "proper" context. my bad. actually, i'm sorry, i should have remembered that you don't care at all what the world community thinks of the US. My suspicion is that if any other country was torturing US citizens, you would be raising holy hell about it...but it's really OK for us to do it, right?Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #67 May 13, 2009 Quotesure, and you proved to me that you COMPLETELY missed the point of the question at the same time. You see, you need to feel that you are liked and acepted. Why? In the context this debate it under your position is twisted at best. If I had a prisoner i dont care what the enemy country thinks of me. I dont care what my country thinks of my captors country. It is irrealavnt. If I was the captured one, I only care that they dont inflict pain! Waterboarding is a fear inducing tech as we use it."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,994 #68 May 13, 2009 >If he is so bad for the R's why dont the D's shut up and let him kill the party? Because they don't have to. He's not listening to the democrats. Thus the democrats can rail against him (and "prove" themselves to be very different from the least popular administration in recent history) with no worry that they will stop him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #69 May 13, 2009 Quote>If he is so bad for the R's why dont the D's shut up and let him kill the party? Because they don't have to. He's not listening to the democrats. Thus the democrats can rail against him (and "prove" themselves to be very different from the least popular administration in recent history) with no worry that they will stop him. Fair enough. Let the game continue. You keep looking at the polls........"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #70 May 13, 2009 Quoteoh right, i forgot that YOUR context is the only "proper" context. my bad. actually, i'm sorry, i should have remembered that you don't care at all what the world community thinks of the US. My suspicion is that if any other country was torturing US citizens, you would be raising holy hell about it...but it's really OK for us to do it, right? What you dont get it that there is torture and there is waterboarding. Two different things."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,994 #71 May 13, 2009 >You keep looking at the polls........ As do you, my short-memoried friend! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #72 May 13, 2009 Quote >You keep looking at the polls........ As do you, my short-memoried friend! Oh billvon, there you go again"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #73 May 13, 2009 Quote If I had a prisoner i dont care what the enemy country thinks of me. I dont care what my country thinks of my captors country. It is irrealavnt. Ah well, at least you're honest. I think what most people on this board are arguing about (regarding torture) is that your position is seen as base, uncaring, nasty, violent, medieval, savage, undeveloped, unenlightened, etc. I'd rather live in a country that is above those things. call it moral superiority, if you will. I want my country to be better, not only financially, militarily, or politically, but MORALLY, too.Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #74 May 13, 2009 Quote Quote If I had a prisoner i dont care what the enemy country thinks of me. I dont care what my country thinks of my captors country. It is irrealavnt. Ah well, at least you're honest. I think what most people on this board are arguing about (regarding torture) is that your position is seen as base, uncaring, nasty, violent, medieval, savage, undeveloped, unenlightened, etc. I'd rather live in a country that is above those things. call it moral superiority, if you will. I want my country to be better, not only financially, militarily, or politically, but MORALLY, too. Careful with the morality statement. In a religious debate that one will come back to bite youAnd then I am glad that you can tell me how everyone here views me and my position. I had no idea you were that clairvoyant. As for our country, we have freed and saved more people on this planet than all the other countries combined. So your high horse has les than 3 legs. You want to FEEL that way no one can stop you. But that indicates to me you blame most of the worlds woes on this country. i do not. Perfect? No. Better than most? With out any doubt. NONE what so ever. I am against torture. I am not against water boarding despite the bullying attempts on this site to get me to say otherwise."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #75 May 13, 2009 Quote As for our country, we have freed and saved more people on this planet than all the other countries combined. nationalist drivel stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
