Cheney Emerges as Defender-in-Chief for Bush Years, Says He Won't 'Roll Over'

[piper17 1]

That's what Reagan said about the Democrat party when he switched to being a Republican.

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling

[nerdgirl 0]

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Look, do some research. Some real research.

Marc – would you suggest/cite/link to some of those research sources that I haven’t looked at previously? Seriously. What have you seen that I have missed?

And where specifically do you see evidence that torture worked?

You do realize that information obtained from KSM that being touted as having “prevented an attack on LA” was obtained (1) by the FBI agents using traditional interrogation before the CIA contractors arrived, and (2) supplemented by information recovered from a computer hard drive, yes?

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[billvon 2,994]

> As a generalization, everyone thinks that their own (possibly Republcan)
>representative is doing great, but that the generic "Republicans" are bad.

Right. Historically it represents overall satisfaction with the party.

> You see the same kind of numbers if you ask people whether
>"congress" is doing a good job . . .

. . . and that represents what people how congress (not just their representative) is doing.

> Unless the US moves to a PR voting system, popularity polls for
>parties are pretty meaningless.

Well, they are pretty good indicators (historically) for how a party will do in an election, on average.

[pirana 0]

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Well, other than the smug types that proclaim global warming is all a hoax, socialism is evil, we all have to support the USA and the market will solve everything - while driving their Mexican-built Ford truck down a government built and maintained road to buy a six pack of InBev Bud Lite, glad that the government has mandated airbags so they don't have to wear their seatbelts. They're the truly smart ones who know what's _really_ going on in government, not like everyone else who prays to Lord Obama!

You lost me at Bud Light.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[rushmc 23]

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Any other twists?

yes, it appears very likely that cheney was torturing not to get the 'truth' but to fabricate evidence - in this case terrorist links to iraq - what do you think of that?

I think you need new tin hat!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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Look, do some research. Some real research.

Marc – would you suggest/cite/link to some of those research sources that I haven’t looked at previously? Seriously. What have you seen that I have missed?

And where specifically do you see evidence that torture worked?

You do realize that information obtained from KSM that being touted as having “prevented an attack on LA” was obtained (1) by the FBI agents using traditional interrogation before the CIA contractors arrived, and (2) supplemented by information recovered from a computer hard drive, yes?

VR/Marg

SOME, of the info was obtained by traditional interrogation.

I cant remember the name of the CIA chief on Fox a couple of weeks ago denied that most of the info was obtained that way. He stated that some was but he stopped. The most actionable was recieved when other methods were used.

i will see if I can find the transcript

He was Fox News Sunday and others that same day

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[dreamdancer 0]

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Any other twists?

yes, it appears very likely that cheney was torturing not to get the 'truth' but to fabricate evidence - in this case terrorist links to iraq - what do you think of that?

I think you need new tin hat!

perhaps you can lend me one from your vast collection

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[TomAiello 26]

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Well, they are pretty good indicators (historically) for how a party will do in an election, on average.

What kind of election? Nationwide? Statewide? City Council?

Also, recall that in the US, parties, do not, in fact, _do_ at all in elections. Candidates do. It's only in PR style systems that parties are voted for/against.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

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Well, other than the smug types that proclaim global warming is all a hoax, socialism is evil, we all have to support the USA and the market will solve everything - while driving their Mexican-built Ford truck down a government built and maintained road to buy a six pack of InBev Bud Lite, glad that the government has mandated airbags so they don't have to wear their seatbelts. They're the truly smart ones who know what's _really_ going on in government, not like everyone else who prays to Lord Obama!

Come now, we both know that those guys are totally square.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[nerdgirl 0]

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i will see if I can find the transcript

He was Fox News Sunday and others that same day

If you can find it; yes, please share it. Thanks.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[billvon 2,994]

>What kind of election? Nationwide?

Depends on the kind of poll! A very poor showing in a nationwide poll is predictive of very poor performance in elections. Same with state governments/state polls.

>Also, recall that in the US, parties, do not, in fact, _do_ at all in elections.

While that is correct in theory, in practice the majority of voters vote for party, not person.

[JohnnyD 0]

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Look, do some research. Some real research.

Marc – would you suggest/cite/link to some of those research sources that I haven’t looked at previously? Seriously. What have you seen that I have missed?

And where specifically do you see evidence that torture worked?

You do realize that information obtained from KSM that being touted as having “prevented an attack on LA” was obtained (1) by the FBI agents using traditional interrogation before the CIA contractors arrived, and (2) supplemented by information recovered from a computer hard drive, yes?

VR/Marg

SOME, of the info was obtained by traditional interrogation.

I cant remember the name of the CIA chief on Fox a couple of weeks ago denied that most of the info was obtained that way. He stated that some was but he stopped. The most actionable was recieved when other methods were used.

i will see if I can find the transcript

He was Fox News Sunday and others that same day

Very substantive.

[dreamdancer 0]

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Quote

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Quote

Look, do some research. Some real research.

Marc – would you suggest/cite/link to some of those research sources that I haven’t looked at previously? Seriously. What have you seen that I have missed?

And where specifically do you see evidence that torture worked?

You do realize that information obtained from KSM that being touted as having “prevented an attack on LA” was obtained (1) by the FBI agents using traditional interrogation before the CIA contractors arrived, and (2) supplemented by information recovered from a computer hard drive, yes?

VR/Marg

SOME, of the info was obtained by traditional interrogation.

I cant remember the name of the CIA chief on Fox a couple of weeks ago denied that most of the info was obtained that way. He stated that some was but he stopped. The most actionable was recieved when other methods were used.

i will see if I can find the transcript

He was Fox News Sunday and others that same day

Very substantive.

it's all written down on a scrap of paper he keeps safe in his tinhat

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[TomAiello 26]

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>What kind of election? Nationwide?

Depends on the kind of poll! A very poor showing in a nationwide poll is predictive of very poor performance in elections. Same with state governments/state polls.

>Also, recall that in the US, parties, do not, in fact, _do_ at all in elections.

While that is correct in theory, in practice the majority of voters vote for party, not person.

Seriously? Dude, you've been living in the big city for too long.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[billvon 2,994]

>Seriously?

Yep, seriously. It's not "right" and it's not the best way to vote, but that's how people, in fact, vote. It's also why third party candidates pretty much never win.

[livendive 8]

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CDIF

CDNDIF

WTC 1 (1993)
Saudi bombing (1995)
Khobar Towers (1996)
US embassy bombings (1998)
USS Cole (2000)

And which of those occurred on our home turf? I'm pretty sure you're not going to argue that the US has not been a target of terrorist attacks abroad since 2001, so yeah, WTC 1993 and WTC 2001 are a bit different than the others.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Gawain 0]

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CDIF

CDNDIF

WTC 1 (1993)
Saudi bombing (1995)
Khobar Towers (1996)
US embassy bombings (1998)
USS Cole (2000)

And which of those occurred on our home turf? I'm pretty sure you're not going to argue that the US has not been a target of terrorist attacks abroad since 2001, so yeah, WTC 1993 and WTC 2001 are a bit different than the others.

Blues,
Dave

US Embassies are sovereign soil. They are "home turf".

I suppose we could add Oklahoma City to the list too...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[livendive 8]

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CDIF

CDNDIF

WTC 1 (1993)
Saudi bombing (1995)
Khobar Towers (1996)
US embassy bombings (1998)
USS Cole (2000)

And which of those occurred on our home turf? I'm pretty sure you're not going to argue that the US has not been a target of terrorist attacks abroad since 2001, so yeah, WTC 1993 and WTC 2001 are a bit different than the others.

Blues,
Dave

US Embassies are sovereign soil. They are "home turf".

You mean like the one in Yemen?

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I suppose we could add Oklahoma City to the list too...

We could. For some reason though, people seem opposed to calling that "terrorism"...presumably because the attackers weren't brown or muslim. And if we are going to include Oklahoma City, why wouldn't we also include Columbine? I'm not sure where that line would get drawn or why.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[nerdgirl 0]

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I suppose we could add Oklahoma City to the list too...

We could. For some reason though, people seem opposed to calling that "terrorism"...

Really? Seriously?

I've never heard that. I'm not doubting your observation ... it's just so foreign an observation to me.

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And if we are going to include Oklahoma City, why wouldn't we also include Columbine? I'm not sure where that line would get drawn or why.

Because the actions of Klebold & Harris are seen as motivated by personal grudge rather than political, ideological, or religious means.

While there is still discussion on the specific definitions, the ones I use are based on the DoD’s (JP 1-02):

“terrorism -- The calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological.

“terrorist -- An individual who commits an act or acts of violence or threatens violence in pursuit of political, religious, or ideological objectives.

“terrorist group -- Any number of terrorists who assemble together, have a unifying relationship, or are organized for the purpose of committing an act or acts of violence or threatens violence in pursuit of their political, religious, or ideological objectives.”

Preferable, imo, because
(1) includes “threatened use” – terrorism is psychological – to force/cause change through non-traditional/asymmetric/unconventional means therefore threats, hoaxes, etc can be terrorizing to a populace.
(2) includes reference to political, religious, or ideological objectives as motivation.
(3) “unlawful” violence, whether one agrees or not, armed conflict between/among uniformed military can be lawful (lawful does not mean that it’s pleasant, easy, or anything less than a horrible, grave undertaking). While the majority of terrorist acts are committed by non-uniformed individuals (non-state actors), this definition does not, however, completely exclude the possibility that states & uniformed military can act as terrorists if they commit “unlawful violence.”
(4) excludes criminal acts lacking ideological, religious, or potical motivation.

One piece that the DoD definition is missing is acts of unlawful violence for political, religious or ideological motivations that are against property. The FBI definition includes acts against property, which is more a factor w/r/t environmental terrorists (e.g., ELF) than al Qa’eda.

There are other definitions used by other agencies, in the PATRIOT ACT, and in the CFR.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[SpeedRacer 1]

Cheney's a Dick.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[loumeinhart 0]

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Ha fucking ha, so an hour after a hijacked plane hits one of the largest buildings in the world,those morons allow another to hit the second buliding, and then another to hit the pentagon.


Billions of dollars spent on 'defence', most of that is used for offence, and when an offensive is made against 'your team' and a goal is scored against you, your defence failed.

Those idiots let that happen beacuse thier game plan was all wrong and many people died because of it.

They made knee jerk ammendments to allow them more power to do more corrupt things, they did not make the USA or the world any safer, they made the problem worse.

those cunts deserve to fry!

thank you Bill Clinton

[rushmc 23]

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Cheney's a Dick.

Yes, He is!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[idrankwhat 0]

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That is exactly the answer I was hoping to see. Reagan took stands, often unpopular, and stuck with his convictions. He took untold crap from the dems and the media (sorry if I repeat) about stong national defense including missile defense, deploying new missiles (Pershings?, it's been too long a time), the Berlin Wall, low taxes, a smaller federal government. and many other things.

He did not waiver on his convictions. Rather, he stuck to his guns.

While we're channeling Reagan........

The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called "universal jurisdiction."Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution.

Ronald Reagan
Message to the Senate, MAY 20, 1988

It looks like the party left him in more ways than one.

[rushmc 23]

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That is exactly the answer I was hoping to see. Reagan took stands, often unpopular, and stuck with his convictions. He took untold crap from the dems and the media (sorry if I repeat) about stong national defense including missile defense, deploying new missiles (Pershings?, it's been too long a time), the Berlin Wall, low taxes, a smaller federal government. and many other things.

He did not waiver on his convictions. Rather, he stuck to his guns.

While we're channeling Reagan........

The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called "universal jurisdiction."Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution.

Ronald Reagan
Message to the Senate, MAY 20, 1988

It looks like the party left him in more ways than one.

If torture was used, you would be correct.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[idrankwhat 0]

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If torture was used, you would be correct.

[facepalm]