mnealtx 0 #176 May 20, 2009 QuoteWhy do people insist on thinking that SERE is a place we go to learn how to torture? YOU are the only one saying that - check your assumptions at the door.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #177 May 20, 2009 Quote Quote It was not intended as an instructional manual for interrogation. The only person I see making that claim is BikerBabe. A few others have made that claim … but you’re correct, purely asserted claims should be challenged. Claim: the techniques included in the SERE manual were based on torture methods the Soviets and North Koreans used against US service members. Use of waterboarding and other stress positions in SERE training is to train to resist torture that was used to elicit false confessions. It was not intended as an instructional manual for interrogation. What does one have to support that claim? When the Communists used those techniques they obtained *false confessions* that were used for propaganda: “… Chinese Communist interrogators had produced false confessions from captured American pilots not with some kind of sinister ‘brainwashing’ but with crude tactics: shackling the Americans to force them to stand for hours, keeping them in cold cells, disrupting their sleep and limiting access to food and hygiene. “‘The Communists do not look upon these assaults as ‘torture,’” one 1956 study concluded [primary reference plus discussion below – nerdgirl] ‘But all of them produce great discomfort, and lead to serious disturbances of many bodily processes; there is no reason to differentiate them from any other form of torture.’ “Worse, the study found that under such abusive treatment, a prisoner became ‘malleable and suggestible, and in some instances he may confabulate.’ [i.e., they lie; false confessions are not good intelligence – nerdgirl]” Mimicking ineffective Communist techniques: that’s on what the use of waterboarding is based. The methods didn’t generate good intelligence; they caused victims to confess to anything, which was what the Communists wanted. That propaganda was used against us; the impetus to incorporate those techniques was to develop defensive measures in US service members. Not to train US interrogators. That “1956 study” was based on the underlying work used to develop the US defensive measures to resist torture, i.e., portions of the original USAF SERE program. That study, “Communist Interrogation and Indoctrination of Enemies of the State,” has been commonly incorrectly identified as being from the Annals of Neurology and Psychology.” It’s not. There is no such journal. There is an Annals of Neurology, but publication began in 1977. It’s from the Archives of Neurology and Psychiatry. I.e., this is illustrative of the depth and precision on which I’m relying for evidence to (1) base my argument, (2) reliance on primary sources, and (3) Open-Source (OSINT) rocks! … some might consider primary research, significantly less than pleasant.) Other primary documents from DoD psychologists, psychiatrists, and cardiologists involved in development of the specific defensive training methods: “The Methods of Interrogation and Indoctrination Used by the Communist State Police,” Bull N Y Acad Med. 1957 (pdf available freely); “Communist Attempts to Elicit False Confessions from Air Force Prisoners of War” Bull N Y Acad Med. 1957; “Effects of Communist indoctrination attempts: Some comments based on an Air Force prisoner-of-war Study,” 1959 (PM me if you want a pdf for personal or educational use). Moving ahead almost fifty years: “In December 2001, Lt. Col. Daniel J. Baumgartner of the Air Force, who oversaw SERE training, cautioned in one memo that physical pressure was ‘less reliable’ than other interrogation methods ….” In November 2002, the Deputy Commander of the DoD’s Criminal Investigative Task Force at Guantanamo noted that SERE training methods were developed to “developed to better prepare U.S. military personnel to resist interrogations and not as a means of obtaining reliable information.” (I.e., it's not just [BikerBabe] & me making the claim.) Do you have any evidence to suggest that the defensive training methods were developed to be used as US interrogation methods? /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #178 May 20, 2009 I challenge you to quote me saying that. I have NEVER said that, no matter what you may be trying to read into my words. for heaven's sake, I've BEEN to SERE! I know what the hell it is and isn't for. Now stop trying to put words in my mouth.Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funjumper101 15 #179 May 20, 2009 QuoteHey, YOU are the one saying that it's torture and illegal - WHY are you not making an equal howl over the government torturing our own soldiers for the last 30 YEARS??? If you can't tell the difference between traing that one volunteers for, and torture conducted by our government, you have established that rational thought is a hopeful concept for you, not a reality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #180 May 20, 2009 Quote so when a former SEAL says waterboarding is torture, it is DROWNING....do you just not care? because he disagrees with Dick Cheney? If it doesn't work, it doesn't work and should be banned. Cheney called for the release of documents he claimed were edited out of the previously classified information. If there are no such documents, fine. Waterboarding didn't work. The Obama administration should've released all or none. IMO, none. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #181 May 20, 2009 QuoteQuoteHey, YOU are the one saying that it's torture and illegal - WHY are you not making an equal howl over the government torturing our own soldiers for the last 30 YEARS??? If you can't tell the difference between traing that one volunteers for, and torture conducted by our government, you have established that rational thought is a hopeful concept for you, not a reality. You are the ones saying it is illegal regardless of who does it - so why no outrage over the government torturing our own troops for 30+ years?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #182 May 20, 2009 QuoteI challenge you to quote me saying that. I have NEVER said that, no matter what you may be trying to read into my words. for heaven's sake, I've BEEN to SERE! I know what the hell it is and isn't for. Now stop trying to put words in my mouth. ahem. and Marg very clearly answered the "no outrage" question...shall i re-quote her post as well?Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #183 May 20, 2009 QuoteI challenge you to quote me saying that. I have NEVER said that, no matter what you may be trying to read into my words. You mean like this post?: QuoteEvery post i've made has asked the same question. Why do people insist on thinking that SERE is a place we go to learn how to torture? Or, maybe it was this one? QuoteWow, you guys seem to think that soldiers and airmen go through SERE training in order to learn how to torture. This one, perhaps? Quotewhy do people seem to think that SERE's purpose is to train our own soldiers how to torture? Here? QuoteNOT to teach me what our interrogation techniques should be. QuoteNow stop trying to put words in my mouth. There's no need...you keep doing it yourself, over and over.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #184 May 20, 2009 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA omg this is the funniest thing i've ever seen on this forum, HANDS DOWN. According to your "logic", here's another scenario: Random SC posters: BikerBabe must hate ice cream. Me: Why do people insist on thinking that I hate ice cream? You: wow, you hate ice cream! How unamerican of you! Me: W.T.F? Where did i say i hated ice cream?Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #185 May 20, 2009 QuoteHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA omg this is the funniest thing i've ever seen on this forum, HANDS DOWN. According to your "logic", here's another scenario: Random SC posters: BikerBabe must hate ice cream is bad and nobody should eat it. BikerBabe: I was made to eat ice cream. Why do people insist on thinking that I hate want to make other people eat ice cream? BikerBabe: I was made to eat ice cream. Why do people insist on thinking that I hate want to make other people eat ice cream? BikerBabe: I was made to eat ice cream. Why do people insist on thinking that I hate want to make other people eat ice cream? BikerBabe: I was made to eat ice cream. Why do people insist on thinking that I hate want to make other people eat ice cream? mnealtx: wow, you hate ice cream! How unamerican of you! You're saying you were forced to eat ice cream and it was bad, so why is the government still making Americans eat ice cream? Where is the outrage over the government making Americans eat ice cream[\i] BikerBabe: W.T.F? Where did i say i hated wanted to make other people eat ice cream? mnealtx: you said that here and here and here and here Logic isn't your forte, is it? Fixed that for you, btw.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #186 May 20, 2009 uh....wow. logic is actually a subject i'm quite strong in. Statement 1 = "Why do people insist on thinking that SERE is for training soldiers how to torture" Statement 2 = "SERE is for training soldiers how to torture" Statement 1 != Statement 2 simple enough for you? I know it's a tough concept, but do try to grasp it. QuoteQuoteWhy do people insist on thinking that SERE is a place we go to learn how to torture? YOU are the only one saying that - check your assumptions at the door. you keep insisting that i am claiming that the purpose of SERE is to teach us how to torture. Why? i never said that, not once, and you still haven't quoted me saying it. You've quoted me saying "why do people insist on thinking SERE is where we go to learn how to torture" which is OBVIOUSLY not the same thing! So are you just pulling my leg here? is this some big joke? because i am finding it rather humorous. I mean, you can't actually be SERIOUS, can you?Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,994 #187 May 20, 2009 >besides the fact that drowning and being beaten cause injury and death... So you think being touched is torture? Well, we better not touch any prisoners then! Or perhaps just use feather pillows to encourage them back to their cells. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,994 #188 May 20, 2009 >for heaven's sake, I've BEEN to SERE! In Speaker's Corner terms, that makes you completely unqualified to discuss it. Only the 101st Fighting Keyboarders know what it's REALLY like. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #189 May 20, 2009 QuoteYou've quoted me saying "why do people insist on thinking SERE is where we go to learn how to torture" which is OBVIOUSLY not the same thing! Other than your repeated protests, where ARE all these posts saying that "SERE is where we go to learn how to torture"? Trot 'em on out - let's see them. Until then, your "argument" is a strawman.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
