Cheney Emerges as Defender-in-Chief for Bush Years, Says He Won't 'Roll Over'

[Darius11 12]

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Just because Obama NOW says he will not use the technique does not make it torture or illegal.

Who has to say its torture for it to be torture in your book?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[dreamdancer 0]

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Is waterboarding torture? Simple question.

Not that simple but, i feel the application applied in our case, no

That's what I thought. And it clarifies your support for Cheney's argument.
But honestly, thank you for giving me a direct answer.

Legal advice was given to the Bush admin
Congress was briefed multiple times specifically on what was going on.

Just because Obama NOW says he will not use the technique does not make it torture or illegal.

The debate that is going on today is a political circus show to satisfy the loony left fringe to keep Obama’s like-o-meter numbers high, period.

Nothing will come of this except a dangerous president of political criminalization tactics to bully the other side into submission (by both sides).

It needs to stop

meanwhile, the paranoid right wing continue to deny torture is torture.

No, torture is torture. YOU just need to redefine what it is to keep the side show going

you're the one keeping the show going with your refusal to face reality

(no, they weren't death camps you say - they were 'work' camps)

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[rushmc 23]

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Is waterboarding torture? Simple question.

Not that simple but, i feel the application applied in our case, no

That's what I thought. And it clarifies your support for Cheney's argument.
But honestly, thank you for giving me a direct answer.

Legal advice was given to the Bush admin
Congress was briefed multiple times specifically on what was going on.

Just because Obama NOW says he will not use the technique does not make it torture or illegal.

The debate that is going on today is a political circus show to satisfy the loony left fringe to keep Obama’s like-o-meter numbers high, period.

Nothing will come of this except a dangerous president of political criminalization tactics to bully the other side into submission (by both sides).

It needs to stop

meanwhile, the paranoid right wing continue to deny torture is torture.

No, torture is torture. YOU just need to redefine what it is to keep the side show going

you're the one keeping the show going with your refusal to face reality

(no, they weren't death camps you say - they were 'work' camps)

It has got to be terribly frustrating to be loosing this one the way you are........

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Darius11 12]

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the rationalization you use here is funny. scarry too, but funny none the less........

They broke so many laws and raped our constitution I just wish they had the decency to see them selves for who they are.

When Cheney speaks I see him as Madoff trying to talk about business ethics. Its just too much hypocrisy and the fact that he is unaware of it is what’s scary to me.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[rushmc 23]

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the rationalization you use here is funny. scarry too, but funny none the less........

They broke so many laws and raped our constitution I just wish they had the decency to see them selves for who they are.

When Cheney speaks I see him as Madoff trying to talk about business ethics. Its just too much hypocrisy and the fact that he is unaware of it is what’s scary to me.

I got to admit it, you got all the talking points (that keep the emotions high with nothing to back it up) down pat

When I see points like those you make here, I think of those who can not get over the fact that they lost two elections to some one they hate. Irrational yes, but real none the same........

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[dreamdancer 0]

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Is waterboarding torture? Simple question.

Not that simple but, i feel the application applied in our case, no

That's what I thought. And it clarifies your support for Cheney's argument.
But honestly, thank you for giving me a direct answer.

Legal advice was given to the Bush admin
Congress was briefed multiple times specifically on what was going on.

Just because Obama NOW says he will not use the technique does not make it torture or illegal.

The debate that is going on today is a political circus show to satisfy the loony left fringe to keep Obama’s like-o-meter numbers high, period.

Nothing will come of this except a dangerous president of political criminalization tactics to bully the other side into submission (by both sides).

It needs to stop

meanwhile, the paranoid right wing continue to deny torture is torture.

No, torture is torture. YOU just need to redefine what it is to keep the side show going

you're the one keeping the show going with your refusal to face reality

(no, they weren't death camps you say - they were 'work' camps)

It has got to be terribly frustrating to be loosing this one the way you are........

keep on denying reality

(mc hearts cheney)

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[rushmc 23]

OOooohhhh, that is what you are doing!

I was wondering.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[idrankwhat 0]

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Look, do some research. Some real research.

I have. And I have also already thanked you for clearly stating your support for the double standard. There's not much more to be said other than to possibly return to the Cheney topic. I think he's going to further damage the party in his effort to save his ass. I know that HE honestly thinks that HE did the right thing. And the HE is of the mind that the Executive branch has powers that it was never granted.
IMO, if he doesn't shut his trap then he's going to blow this up even further, to the point that the Republican party will further implode and/or to such a degree that Obama couldn't ignore it even if he wanted to.

[Darius11 12]

Who has to say its torture for it to be torture in your book?

Or is this like Nixon when bush and cheney do it its no longer illegal in your book.


as for talking points, when was the last time we suspended habeas corpus?

I think that’s your issue you can not take FACTS that don't support your point of view.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[jerryzflies 0]

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I mean, I don't expect anybody to always be right, but I expect leadership to have certain qualities; among them being honesty, being principle driven, being open to new ideas, etc. That adminstration was the antithesis of what we should expect from leaders. Cheney's current behavior just keeps reminding people of how dishonest, self-serving, and unprincipled they were.

+1

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[wmw999 2,447]

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For a liberal, the different values don't matter because they all agree in the idea that more government is better. The rest is part of the journey. They see the ends, without concern for the means.

I'm not sure that's accurate. However, the liberal side hasn't spent quite as much time, money, and publicity telling people that they have to choose sides. So they sound more inclusive.

And liberals do like inclusiveness pretty much across the board

All that said, if we're going to release memos about who said what to whom, and who listened to what and when, then it's only reasonable to have the memos that talk about which dems were briefed. Playing with definitions so that only stuff that makes Republicans look bad is declassified is tacky.

I happen to think that torture is wrong enough that it pretty much is never justified as an institutionalized practice. Are there times when I, as an individual, would be inclined to commit torture? Possibly -- I do have a son. I hope not to find out. But if I go vigilante, I hope that the system I live in will punish me as well.

Ellie Nesler is a pretty good example of vigilantism. What she did was both understandable in some ways, and wrong.

I think we, as a country, have to encourage people to take responsibility for their actions, both for the good and the bad. Was there good intelligence developed from torture? Undoubtedly sometimes. Almost equally undoubtedly it was not worth the damage that it did to our reputation, and the information that it cost us in cooperation that might have come without it.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 23]

Look, this is as pointless as they left using this to go after Bush

Nothing is going to come of it because there is nothing there but differing opinions.

Make all the comparisons and raltionalizations you like but it is what it is.

99% of the stuff the left bitches about has been going on for many admins before Bush's. And that includes waterboarding (which was also used durning th Clinton admin)

You are not going to change my mind and I will not change yours........

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jerryzflies 0]

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Is waterboarding torture? Simple question.

Not that simple but, i feel the application applied in our case, no

That's what I thought. And it clarifies your support for Cheney's argument.
But honestly, thank you for giving me a direct answer.

Legal advice was given to the Bush admin
Congress was briefed multiple times specifically on what was going on.

Just because Obama NOW says he will not use the technique does not make it torture or illegal.

The debate that is going on today is a political circus show to satisfy the loony left fringe to keep Obama’s like-o-meter numbers high, period.

Nothing will come of this except a dangerous president of political criminalization tactics to bully the other side into submission (by both sides).

It needs to stop

meanwhile, the paranoid right wing continue to deny torture is torture.

No, torture is torture. YOU just need to redefine what it is to keep the side show going

The USA defined it as torture decades ago, when we punished the Japanese who did it to our POWs.

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[masterblaster72 0]

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I expect leadership to have certain qualities; among them being honesty, being principle driven, being open to new ideas, etc.

I like where you're coming from, but unfortunately that is not the reality of American politics.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[rushmc 23]

Wendy, the only ones that see the "damage" you post about are here in this country. No one else (in most other countried) of any consequense really cares or they see us a week and manipulatable.

And it was the liberals spending money in the public bitching about picking sides. Only the liberals were the only ones saying it. THEY created it for a talking and deviding point.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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Is waterboarding torture? Simple question.

Not that simple but, i feel the application applied in our case, no

That's what I thought. And it clarifies your support for Cheney's argument.
But honestly, thank you for giving me a direct answer.

Legal advice was given to the Bush admin
Congress was briefed multiple times specifically on what was going on.

Just because Obama NOW says he will not use the technique does not make it torture or illegal.

The debate that is going on today is a political circus show to satisfy the loony left fringe to keep Obama’s like-o-meter numbers high, period.

Nothing will come of this except a dangerous president of political criminalization tactics to bully the other side into submission (by both sides).

It needs to stop

meanwhile, the paranoid right wing continue to deny torture is torture.

No, torture is torture. YOU just need to redefine what it is to keep the side show going

The USA defined it as torture decades ago, when we punished the Japanese who did it to our POWs.

AND, as I understand it, there are about 5 diffenent tech of the practice. The ones that Japanese use caused death. but I am sure that does not matter to you .

Again, this is about get Bush, nothing more.......

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[dreamdancer 0]

if you (the american people) don't get bush the icc will

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[idrankwhat 0]

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Wendy, the only ones that see the "damage" you post about are here in this country. No one else (in most other countried) of any consequense really cares .....

[blink blink]Wow.[/blink blink]

[wmw999 2,447]

I'm not sure what international press you're reading. I know that friends and relatives that I have overseas did not see the Bush presidency as a US strength, and what I've seen in the Economist is not much more positive in retrospect (although they endorsed him over Gore and Kerry both).

As far as divisiveness, I'm sorry, but the likes of Rush, Savage et. al. ("you're either with us or against us", "if you're pro-choice you're a liberal no matter what else you think", "if you disagree with the government you're unpatriotic", "the Patriot Act is necessary for our security and if you disagree you probably have something to hide" and other similar quips). My personal favorite is the oft-repeated "we'll compromise as long as you agree with us."

There's plenty of dirt to go around, and the Dems are currently doing some spreading of their own. But the Republicans, particularly when Newt Gingrich was the whip rather than the Speaker, were heavily into the "defining issues" thing. Those defining issues become wedge issues, and wedges are, in fact, used to drive things apart.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[BikerBabe 0]

Marc, my question for you is this:

If you were being held as a POW and your captors began waterboarding YOU, would your opinion of your captors go down, remain the same, or actually go up?

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[rushmc 23]

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Marc, my question for you is this:

If you were being held as a POW and your captors began waterboarding YOU, would your opinion of your captors go down, remain the same, or actually go up?

You are serious?

You really think that the captors should care what their prisoner thinks of them?

Really, are you serious?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[idrankwhat 0]

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Marc, my question for you is this:

If you were being held as a POW and your captors began waterboarding YOU, would your opinion of your captors go down, remain the same, or actually go up?

You are serious?

You really think that the captors should care what their prisoner thinks of them?

Really, are you serious?

What do you think the US opinion should be/would be regarding the treatment from your captors?

[wmw999 2,447]

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You really think that the captors should care what their prisoner thinks of them?

I don't know about Andi, but I do. Because you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. And if the purpose of holding some prisoners is to get information from them, then you should use at least some honey.

Prisoners who are abused, isolated, and mistreated are more likely to be violent, and will require more guards, and will cost more. They have forfeited their freedom, not their humanity.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 23]

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You really think that the captors should care what their prisoner thinks of them?

I don't know about Andi, but I do. Because you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. And if the purpose of holding some prisoners is to get information from them, then you should use at least some honey.

Prisoners who are abused, isolated, and mistreated are more likely to be violent, and will require more guards, and will cost more. They have forfeited their freedom, not their humanity.

Wendy P.

I am not talking about abuse Wendy, or mistreatment but, they are there for a reason, hoping that they like me as a captor would not be one of the reasons

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[ryoder 1,590]

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I liked the quote the other day from Jesse Ventura:

"Give me a waterboard and thirty minutes and I'll have him confessing to the Sharon Tate murders."

Yeah, Jesse is a goof a lot of the time; but that one is gold.

Oh, this is good!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoqmH49VBC0

Thanks for bringing this to my attention!

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.