funjumper101 15 #1 May 13, 2009 I wrote this for another thread. Given that the righies are still spewing their bullshit that what was done was "not" torture, it is time to start a new thread on this matter. Begin>>> There is a huge disconnect between what righties profess to believe in, and the practical reality of what those beliefs really mean, and what the results are. You defend the indefensible. We executed people for torturing US POWs during WWII. Righties actions and words show me that they believe that the following is true - 1. Yellow man tortures white man = war crime with imprisonment or death as penalty 2. Brown man tortures white man = war crime with imprisonment or death as penalty 3. White man tortures brown or yellow man = OK as long as a legal pretext existed at the time. No need for investigation or prosecution. You folks are wrong. Totally and completely wrong. Excusing crimes of this magnitude is totally un-american. Have you no shame? In my opinion, those that are trying to cover up the truth deserve as much scorn and derision as can possibly be applied. Deal with it. You earned it. <<< end How come the chickenshit Sean Hannity won't be waterboarded for charity? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #2 May 13, 2009 Yet again someone is trying to inject racial elements into a non-racial issue in an effort to paint those who disagree with them as racists. I am truly astonished at the regularity with which this tactic is dredged up. "Burn 'im! Burn 'im! He's a racist!" "What makes you think he's a racist?" "He oppressed me." "Oppressed you?" "I got better."-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #3 May 13, 2009 Quote Yet again someone is trying to inject racial elements into a non-racial issue in an effort to paint those who disagree with them as racists. I am truly astonished at the regularity with which this tactic is dredged up. "Burn 'im! Burn 'im! He's a racist!" "What makes you think he's a racist?" "He oppressed me." "Oppressed you?" "I got better." you seem very touchy about the whole 'racial' thing (though the op doesn't mention races - just colours)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funjumper101 15 #4 May 13, 2009 QuoteYet again someone is trying to inject racial elements into a non-racial issue in an effort to paint those who disagree with them as racists. I am truly astonished at the regularity with which this tactic is dredged up. "Burn 'im! Burn 'im! He's a racist!" "What makes you think he's a racist?" "He oppressed me." "Oppressed you?" "I got better." How else can you explain the disconnect between the factual historical record and what is being said by the righties? The facts are indisputable. We, the USA, executed and imprisoned people of other races for actions that are now being excused by the righties. In other words, if you are a righty, we'll hold people of color accountable for what they do to our soldiers. If you are a righty, we won't hold our people acountable for the same exact actions that were performed on non-white people. If that isn't racist, what other explanation is there? Are the facts in dispute? Did we, or did we not, execute and imprison Japanese soldiers for waterboarding US Soldiers? On what rational basis can any moderately educated US citizen argue that waterboarding is not torture? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #5 May 13, 2009 QuoteHow else can you explain the disconnect between the factual historical record and what is being said by the righties? Situational ethics and (perceived) self-interest? The tendency to so quickly cry "racist!" on any number of unrelated issues (torture, gun control, states rights) is quite silly and unproductive. This is especially true when there are any number of simpler, more logical, and often openly presented reasons. For what it's worth, your lumping of "righties" together as proponents of waterboarding (or other "enhanced interrogation" techniques) is, from my point of view, just about as ignorant as trying to classify people by race. I mean, come on, can you really say that the latest Republican presidential candidate isn't a "righty"?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #6 May 13, 2009 Quote you seem very touchy about the whole 'racial' thing Being repeatedly accused (either openly or by implication) of racism would tend to make you touchy, don't you think?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #7 May 13, 2009 Quote Quote you seem very touchy about the whole 'racial' thing Being repeatedly accused (either openly or by implication) of racism would tend to make you touchy, don't you think? no, you're just overly touchy. and anyone who doesn't understand the importance of race in the us and its history is being very silly (why are all those blacks in prison)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #8 May 13, 2009 "It can be explained because you dont get it!" Hows that ? Kind of similar to your attitude on the subject?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #9 May 13, 2009 Calling someone a racists today is simply at tactic to bully them into being quite."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #10 May 13, 2009 Quote Quote Quote you seem very touchy about the whole 'racial' thing Being repeatedly accused (either openly or by implication) of racism would tend to make you touchy, don't you think? no, you're just overly touchy. and anyone who doesn't understand the importance of race in the us and its history is being very silly (why are all those blacks in prison) It this what your website told you to say?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #11 May 13, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote you seem very touchy about the whole 'racial' thing Being repeatedly accused (either openly or by implication) of racism would tend to make you touchy, don't you think? no, you're just overly touchy. and anyone who doesn't understand the importance of race in the us and its history is being very silly (why are all those blacks in prison) It this what your website told you to say? why are all those blacks in prison? (racism you say - surely not)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #12 May 13, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote you seem very touchy about the whole 'racial' thing Being repeatedly accused (either openly or by implication) of racism would tend to make you touchy, don't you think? no, you're just overly touchy. and anyone who doesn't understand the importance of race in the us and its history is being very silly (why are all those blacks in prison) It this what your website told you to say? why are all those blacks in prison? (racism you say - surely not) Ah, because the commited a crime? That cant be the case now can itYou make this easy you know..."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #13 May 13, 2009 Quote Quote Quote you seem very touchy about the whole 'racial' thing Being repeatedly accused (either openly or by implication) of racism would tend to make you touchy, don't you think? no, you're just overly touchy. and anyone who doesn't understand the importance of race in the us and its history is being very silly Interesting comment, coming from someone in a country that is much more prone to xenophobia and ethnically based violence.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #14 May 14, 2009 Bottom line here folks... Righty, lefty, black or white, brown or yellow, torture is just plain wrong!! Don't rationalize it, don't make excuses for it, don’t condone it, don’t tolerate it, and most important, don't do it! Period.Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #15 May 14, 2009 So, since waterboarding is so horrible...when is the military going to stop doing it to our own troops?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #16 May 14, 2009 QuoteSo, since waterboarding is so horrible...when is the military going to stop doing it to our own troops? Do you consider those members of the US military and NATO allies (& a few 'special' civilians) who have been trained in live chemical and biological warfare agent environments to be victims of chemical weapons attacks? The US military does live chemical warfare agent training at Ft Leonard Wood; does that mean that we should use chemical warfare agents (nerve agents, blister agents) offensively? Soldiers, sailors, airman, and Marines are trained in live agent environments to execute defensive countermeasures and to operate in a contaminated environment. It's not training to use CW or BW. I doubt any of them would compare themselves to victims of Halabja either. The use of waterboarding in SERE training was based on torture methods used by the North Korean Communist (& others) against US service members to elicit false confessions. The US military uses waterboarding as part of SERE training to resist torture, i.e., tacitly acknowledging it is *torture.* It's training to resist torture. It was not intended as an instructional manual for interrogation. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #17 May 14, 2009 QuoteDo you consider those members of the US military and NATO allies (& a few 'special' civilians) who have been trained in live chemical and biological warfare agent environments to be victims of chemical weapons attacks? No, and I understand the difference between the two. I'm merely providing another data point for the black/white 'off with their heads' crowd.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #18 May 14, 2009 QuoteQuoteDo you consider those members of the US military and NATO allies (& a few 'special' civilians) who have been trained in live chemical and biological warfare agent environments to be victims of chemical weapons attacks? No, and I understand the difference between the two. Understand the difference between live agent training and offensive use of CW? Or the difference between training to resist torture as done in the US military and the use of waterboarding as torture for interrogation? QuoteI'm merely providing another data point ... Now, I'm confused ... what's the data point? /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #19 May 14, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteDo you consider those members of the US military and NATO allies (& a few 'special' civilians) who have been trained in live chemical and biological warfare agent environments to be victims of chemical weapons attacks? No, and I understand the difference between the two. Understand the difference between live agent training and offensive use of CW? Or the difference between training to resist torture as done in the US military and the use of waterboarding as torture for interrogation? Both. QuoteQuoteI'm merely providing another data point ... Now, I'm confused ... what's the data point? /Marg The information I provided in the post you initially answered...that the military *does* perform waterboarding upon it's own members.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Will_Evo 0 #20 May 14, 2009 I gotta be honest, Im sick of hearing people say that what we do to prisoners is torture...and even if so, that they should be punished. Maybe you should leave your country for a few weeks and see a Islamic extremist culture, maybe then you would see that simply asking a man in said culture is ridiculous. These people are not your average American, who is scared to cross the street in the morning, they deal with death, violence, torture from birth. They are a naturally tough people. Also, I think you may forget that alot of the people we interrogate are actual insurgents who have committed violence against American troops, you really think they deserve a comfy bed, and a nice talking to? Where does loyalty come in to play? Where does being an American, and standing behind the people who this insurgent killed come in to play? People seem to forget there is more to the story, we arent just pulling people off the streets and torturing them. In fact, open sources usually come to us, and we feed them and sit with them like everyday people, but when you have a person whos life is dedicated to the ending of your life, things get broken down on a whole different level. Maybe Americans are going soft? -EvoZoo Crew Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #21 May 14, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote you seem very touchy about the whole 'racial' thing Being repeatedly accused (either openly or by implication) of racism would tend to make you touchy, don't you think? no, you're just overly touchy. and anyone who doesn't understand the importance of race in the us and its history is being very silly Interesting comment, coming from someone in a country that is much more prone to xenophobia and ethnically based violence. possibly 'as xenophobic' as the us but not 'more' Quote Race and Prison As of June 30, 2007, the incarceration rate in state or federal prison or jail for men was 1,406 per 100,000 residents, for women 136 per 100,000 residents. The rate for white men was 773 per 100,000, for black men 4,618 per 100,000, for Hispanic men 1,747 per 100,000. The rate for white women was 95 per 100,000, for black women 348 per 100,000, and for Hispanic women 146 per 100,000. Of the 253,300 state prison inmates serving time for drug offenses at yearend 2005, 113,500 (44.8%) were black, 51,100 (20.2%) were Hispanic, and 72,300 (28.5%) were white. http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/64stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #22 May 14, 2009 QuoteQuoteNow, I'm confused ... what's the data point? The information I provided in the post you initially answered...that the military *does* perform waterboarding upon it's own members. Imagine: A married couple consensually have very rough sex while engaging in Dominant/submissive role play. They use a safe word. Do you think we should consider that to be a violation of laws against domestic violence?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #23 May 14, 2009 QuoteSituational ethics and (perceived) self-interest?" Bingo. I think most people, most organizations, and all governments practice situational ethics. Their ethics are shaped by their desires rather than their principles." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Channman 2 #24 May 14, 2009 Why do people take the time responding to your CRAP? This thread is not worth my time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #25 May 14, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDo you consider those members of the US military and NATO allies (& a few 'special' civilians) who have been trained in live chemical and biological warfare agent environments to be victims of chemical weapons attacks? No, and I understand the difference between the two. Understand the difference between live agent training and offensive use of CW? Or the difference between training to resist torture as done in the US military and the use of waterboarding as torture for interrogation? Both. QuoteQuoteI'm merely providing another data point ... Now, I'm confused ... what's the data point? /Marg The information I provided in the post you initially answered...that the military *does* perform waterboarding upon it's own members. Meaning that if they use it as a defensive training tool, they don't consider it to have long term or permanently scarring effects.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
