More Police Brutality

[futuredivot 0]

sniffle-whimper-sob

OK, that was all the sympathy that I can manage for the perp. He ran, he was effectively pacified. Don't wanna dance, don't play the song.
Like has been said, we have an unclear view and no audio so at best you're judging on speculation. I've never been a cop, but I have run in to a few burning building in my day and you don't turn off that adrenalin all at once.
Jumping out of a plane with gearing up and climbing to altitude is nothing like going dead stop to full blast in danger with no warning. So, even if the cop wasn't restraining by the book-you've got to allow for human nature in the situation. If you're stupid enough to poke the dog, don't cry when you get bit.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[jcd11235 0]

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sniffle-whimper-sob

OK, that was all the sympathy that I can manage for the perp. He ran, he was effectively pacified. Don't wanna dance, don't play the song.
Like has been said, we have an unclear view and no audio so at best you're judging on speculation. I've never been a cop, but I have run in to a few burning building in my day and you don't turn off that adrenalin all at once.
Jumping out of a plane with gearing up and climbing to altitude is nothing like going dead stop to full blast in danger with no warning. So, even if the cop wasn't restraining by the book-you've got to allow for human nature in the situation. If you're stupid enough to poke the dog, don't cry when you get bit.

Laying face down on the ground with legs spread and hands visible is hardly "poking the dog." If a cop cannot remain level headed in a high stress situation, (s)he should find an alternative career.

I have zero sympathy for cops who think they are above the law and that rules don't apply to them. It is not their job to pass judgement on suspected criminals.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[billvon 3,064]

>If you're stupid enough to poke the dog, don't cry when you get bit.

I'd like to think that cops are a little smarter than dogs. Most cops that I know are.

[rehmwa 2]

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> People need to have standards and expectations for the themselves
>and others. Regardless of profession.

Of course. Still, if you are trained to handle something, when in that field you are in fact held to a higher standard.

that's is not what people mean when they say it. and you know it - are you just objectionary for the hell of it?





however, in this scenario, I'll play your game.

I think if a civilian loses control and beats up on a person who is now helpless or otherwise difused, then they should get the same punishment as the cop in the same scenario

both are breaking the same crime, and both are acting morally reprehensible at that moment and neither are acting in the capacity of their profession at that moment, so the job title is moot.


what you are saying, is that it's ok for a civilian to lose control and beat the shit out of someone once they are down - I don't accept that. You are giving the civilian a pass because they don't have the same training (?) as the cop in how to be human? nuts


the "Job"? ok, the cop sees a civilian or another cop beating on someone helpless and doesn't do anything about it? he certainly did fail to do his job -

beating on the guy down? they failed the "standards" test

not stopping the illegal act? they failed the 'cop' test

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,064]

> is that it's ok for a civilian to lose control and beat the shit out of someone
> once they are down - I don't accept that. You are giving the civilian a pass
> because they don't have the same training (?) as the cop in how to be
> human? nuts

No, I am giving the civilian more leeway because most civilians don't know what the hell they are doing. Most civilians don't know how to subdue someone without hurting them, because they aren't trained to do it and they generally have never done it before. Cops have. Most civilians don't know when someone is a deadly and imminent threat to others. Cops more often do.

You're saying you would hold a skydiving student to exactly the same skydiving standards as the AFF instructor in the airplane? You'd blame both of them equally for letting a pilot chute get out the door, or letting the CG get too far aft? Just because they're both human? Now that's nuts.

[airtwardo 7]

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You're saying you would hold a skydiving student to exactly the same skydiving standards as the AFF instructor in the airplane?

I wouldn't hold either to a set standard for any given situation since I am neither a student or and AFF instructor.

(for that matter a cop or gang member committing numerous felonies)

Having never been an AFFI, I personally have no situational awareness regarding what 'may' have been going through the I's mind at the time a certain circumstance developed.


I can from an outsiders vantage, armchair what I think the AFFI would do in a perfect world...but my not being an IE or a person of authority with like experience, I would NOT expect my opinion to mean very much.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[billvon 3,064]

>Having never been an AFFI, I personally have no situational
>awareness regarding what 'may' have been going through the I's mind at
>the time a certain circumstance developed.

Being an AFF-I, I hold both myself and my fellow instructors to a higher standard than I do a skydiving student. If we have to bail out, I expect a student to hesitate and be confused; I expect the other AFF-I's to get people out the door quickly and safely. If we have a serious collision in freefall and the student is incapacitated, I expect that either I or the other AFF-JM will make sure his parachute is open. If, after that collision, I am incapacitated, I do not expect the student to open my parachute for me.

Why? Because I have more experience and more training than that student.

Ask yourself this question. Let's say you had an AFF-I who got knocked out by the cameraman during an AFF jump and went in. Would the student hold any blame for the instructor's death?

Now let's say the student was the one knocked out and the AFF-I let the student drift away and could not reach him in time to deploy him. Would the instructor hold any blame for the student's death?

[airtwardo 7]

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>Having never been an AFFI, I personally have no situational
>awareness regarding what 'may' have been going through the I's mind at
>the time a certain circumstance developed.

Being an AFF-I, I hold both myself and my fellow instructors to a higher standard than I do a skydiving student. If we have to bail out, I expect a student to hesitate and be confused; I expect the other AFF-I's to get people out the door quickly and safely. If we have a serious collision in freefall and the student is incapacitated, I expect that either I or the other AFF-JM will make sure his parachute is open. If, after that collision, I am incapacitated, I do not expect the student to open my parachute for me.

Why? Because I have more experience and more training than that student.

Ask yourself this question. Let's say you had an AFF-I who got knocked out by the cameraman during an AFF jump and went in. Would the student hold any blame for the instructor's death?

Now let's say the student was the one knocked out and the AFF-I let the student drift away and could not reach him in time to deploy him. Would the instructor hold any blame for the student's death?

So then I take you would agree, neither one of us being a cop at the pursuit in question, aren't really qualified to judge the actions or decisions of the LEO there?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[n23x 0]

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aren't really qualified to judge the actions or decisions of the LEO there?

I'm going to disagree with you here.

Kicking a person in the mouth when they are clearly on the ground with their hands spread served no purpose for the officer, other than to get out some aggression that he had towards the perp. That's not the role the officer plays. Punishment is for the court to decide. If the officer cannot control his behavior, even in the "heat of the moment", he cannot be a competent officer.

Running from the cops? Dumb.
Car chase? Dumb.
Kicking an unarmed man who is in a passive position? Dumb.

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[airtwardo 7]

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aren't really qualified to judge the actions or decisions of the LEO there?

I'm going to disagree with you here.

Kicking a person in the mouth when they are clearly on the ground with their hands spread served no purpose for the officer, other than to get out some aggression that he had towards the perp. That's not the role the officer plays. Punishment is for the court to decide. If the officer cannot control his behavior, even in the "heat of the moment", he cannot be a competent officer.

Running from the cops? Dumb.
Car chase? Dumb.
Kicking an unarmed man who is in a passive position? Dumb.

.jim

And again, aren't we're making suppositions and judgements without knowing all the facts.

Did you know for a fact that the suspect was unarmed prior to being arrested ?

Do you know for a fact that the suspect didn't 'say' something along the lines of - Come one step closer popo, and I'll kill you?

When ever an incident like this happens it's easy to 'rush to judgement' and make assumptions.

I'm not saying the LEO was justified, not saying he wasn't...just saying since we weren't there and at this point in time aren't privy to the whole story, it's rather arrogant and pompous to make a bunch of emotional hand wringing statements in regard to the police officers motivation and action.



edited to add:

When a person puts on bullet resistant clothing as a part of their every day job, and works to keep a community safe, don't they deserve at a minimum, the same due process as the criminals intent on breaking the law?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[rehmwa 2]

Most civilians don't know when someone is a deadly and imminent threat to others. Cops more often do.


because beating on someone when they are already subdued is such a nuanced situation to recognize

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Most civilians don't know when someone is a deadly and imminent threat to others. Cops more often do.

Ahh, so if the cop does it, then you assume it was justified and we can't tell? That seems backwards from what you're saying earlier. If you get your story straight, come back and again tell me why you'd punish one person more than another for the same crime.

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> You're saying you would hold a skydiving student to exactly the same skydiving standards as the AFF instructor in the airplane? You'd blame both of them equally for letting a pilot chute get out the door, or letting the CG get too far aft? Just because they're both human? Now that's nuts.

and the first little piggie built his house out of straw - you continue to confuse training and job expectations with "standards" which are more of a sense of right and wrong thing, not a competency issue.

your scenario - if an AFFI 'purposely' tries to kill the cameraman versus the student who purposely tries to kill the cameraman - both of the show the same low standards. The CHOICE to try and kill the cameraman has nothing to do with the fact that the AFFI might have a better chance to succeed in the action (at least most AFFIs).

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DougH 270]

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Kicking a person in the mouth when they are clearly on the ground with their hands spread served no purpose for the officer, other than to get out some aggression that he had towards the perp.

Were you there on scene? No?

Are you a trained leo officer, with knowledge of that departments procedures, who is trained enough to dispute that the subject was making threatening movement while on the ground?

The claim has already been made by that police department that the perp was making movements, and that they train to deliver a non-lethal blow in such circumstances.

The perp isn't dead so we already know it is non-lethal. Letting a perp make a move that results in the officer having to empty their rounds into him is definetly not non-lethal.

I just want to know your experince that you are using to agrue the other point, that the blow wasn't necessary, in your opinion of course.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[n23x 0]

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Were you there on scene? No?

There is pretty clear video of the suspect in a passive position, with hands FAR away from the body.

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The claim has already been made by that police department that the perp was making movements, and that they train to deliver a non-lethal blow in such circumstances.

He was going to shoot the cop with the gun he had hidden in his mouth? Oh, it was probably a knife, you're right.

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The perp isn't dead so we already know it is non-lethal.

So, escalated violence on passive suspects is ok as long they're non-lethal? (The answer is: "It's not OK, regardless.")

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Are you a trained leo officer, with knowledge of that departments procedures, who is trained enough to dispute that the subject was making threatening movement while on the ground?

From the video, I can clearly see that the perp's hands are widespread, with his chest on the ground. That is what I would consider a passive stance. The cop is obviously not concerned about the perp's hands going for a weapon, because the perp's hands go closer to his body (and closer to a weapon, if he had one on himself) after the cop kicks him in the mouth.

The cop wasn't worried about getting shot, or stabbed. He was pissed off, and decided to exact some "justice" before locking the guy up.

Additionally, saying that a kick to the mouth is justified if the guy said "come any closer and I'll kill you" is retarded, because the cop just ran up and kicked him in the mouth. Notice a lack of verbal exchange (or time for one)? I did.

Trust me, the guy is a moron for running from the cops, and he deserves to be punished. But that isn't the cop's job.

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[airtwardo 7]

Then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

It's always easy to criticize the game from the stands, it's the actual players that count.

When something like this hits the media I tend to wait for all the facts, and even then I'd lean toward forgiveness should the LEO be found to be wrong...they have a tough job, one I wouldn't want to do.

I haven't ever had a Police Officer treat me with anything other than the respect I show them...hopefully a lesson learned for the perp.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[SpeedRacer 1]

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He ran, he was effectively pacified.

He was effectively pacified BEFORE the cop kicked him. That's the problem.

Speed Racer
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[airtwardo 7]

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He ran, he was effectively pacified.

He was effectively pacified BEFORE the cop kicked him. That's the problem.

Unless of course he was laying on a gun that could have been pulled when the cop went behind him to cuff up...I say stun 'em like fish.

It's not like he'd get a concussion, dumb fuck doesn't have any brains.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[skycop 0]

dude,
Are you my brotha, from anotha mutha?

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[futuredivot 0]

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Notice a lack of verbal exchange (or time for one)? I did.

Then you audio was a lot better than mine on that clip.
Scenerio
Cop running up shouting "Put your hands behind your head!"
Perp thinking "When he gets close, I can sweep his legs, take his gun, kill him and keep running".

I'm not saying that's what's going on-but it's just as valid from the info given as what you think you saw.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[n23x 0]

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Dumb Scenerio
Cop running up shouting "Put your hands behind your head!"
Perp thinking "When he gets close, I can sweep his legs, take his gun, kill him and keep running".

I'm not saying that's what's going on-but it's just as valid from the info given as what you think you saw.

I wonder if LEOs have protocol to prevent just such an action? Perhaps one that doesn't involve kicking someone in the mouth?

No, you're right. Certainly not.

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[jcd11235 0]

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Unless of course he was laying on a gun that could have been pulled when the cop went behind him to cuff up...I say stun 'em like fish.

If you watch the video, you'll clearly see such an action on the part of the suspect would be impossible given his face down, arms & legs spread position.

I'm always amazed at the number of people who reflexively defend bad cops.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Cop running up shouting "Put your hands behind your head!"
Perp thinking "When he gets close, I can sweep his legs, take his gun, kill him and keep running".

So the cop could have easily waited for the tens of other cops that were in this pursuit. In stead he did what he knows how to do best....act like a pig.

[airtwardo 7]

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I'm always amazed at the number of people who reflexively defend bad cops.

We're even then, I'm always amazed at the number of people that reflexively condemn cops as being bad...


I'm not 'defending' anyone, I'm AGAIN saying...why don't we wait for the whole story instead of blubbering 'oh my gosh' like a bunch of old women in a sewing circle.





>>If you watch the video, you'll clearly see such an action on the part of the suspect would be impossible given his face down, arms & legs spread position.


Impossible you say?

Why do you think Correctional Officers only cuff up through a slot in a cell door?
It's because bad guys practice how to circumvent being cuffed.

Not trying to be a macho hard ass here, but should you and I meet sometime, I'll lay down like that and you walk behind me and try to simulate putting cuffs on...you be the cop, I'll be the 'noncompliant'.

You will not get me cuffed by yourself, probably not with another persons help.

Once the cuffs are on me, I'll show you how to 'slip' them and come at you again.

~I know how to do it and I'm not a seasoned criminal, on parole, with gang allifiation...I'm a fat old surburban white guy.

The perp in this incedent had shown for the prior 30 some minutes, at the risk of death and injury to all innocent people he came in contact with...that he was not going to comply to Police commands.

This wasn't a drunk driver that gets a smack upside the head for being beligerent, this was someone/thing that shows total disregard for laws and common sense.

Do I fault the cop for insuring his own personal safety by making sure he was down?

Nope!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[billvon 3,064]

>because beating on someone when they are already subdued is such a
>nuanced situation to recognize . . .

I think it's easy to talk about when you've never been in that situation. Yes, a woman alone in a house who hits an intruder over and over with a bat is not as able to tell when he's subdued as a cop hitting someone with their nightstick.

I know it's all politically correct to assume that everyone is exactly the same, but they're not. Some people are better trained than others. Those people perform better in situations they are trained for. That's why we train police instead of just giving a teenager a gun and a car and tell them "go enforce some laws!"

>Ahh, so if the cop does it, then you assume it was justified and we can't tell?

Nope, try again!

>if an AFFI 'purposely' tries to kill the cameraman versus the student who
>purposely tries to kill the cameraman - both of the show the same low standards.

If an AFF-I pulls directly under the cameraman at 8000 feet and kills him, he's partly liable for the cameraman's death. Even if he didn't do it "on purpose." If the student pulls directly under the cameraman at 8000 feet and kills him, he is not partly liable for the cameraman's death. Why? Because one should know better; the other does not.

[rehmwa 2]

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I know it's all politically correct to assume that everyone is exactly the same, but they're not

I believe today's political correctness is about as far from that statement as it gets. sadly enough

you continue to talk about training or 'liability', not about personal standards of right and wrong - this is going nowhere, I can stop and you can claim victory if you like.

It is telling that you won't acknowledge the difference.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,064]

>you continue to talk about training or 'liability', not about personal standards
>of right and wrong

Now you're getting into "personal standards." I'm responding to your comment earlier:

"I think if a civilian loses control and beats up on a person who is now helpless or otherwise difused, then they should get the same punishment as the cop in the same scenario."

That's the one I have a problem with. To me, it doesn't matter what 'personal standards' they have, it's what they do that counts.

If a woman, alone in a house, confronts an intruder, gets in a lucky swing with a bat she had in her closet, and then continues to hit him as he crawls - that's more defensible than a cop who takes down a suspect with a nightstick and continues to hit him as he crawls. The woman may not know better, and may think that her only chance at being safe from him is to hit him until he stops moving around, perhaps getting ready for another attack. The cop should know better. They are judged differently because they are, in fact, different when it comes to their knowledge of how much force to use in such a situation.