Fu*k you very much America

[Rstanley0312 1]

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BTW, what does that have to do with my question about a supposedly biblical motivation for US policy on Israel?

Christians claim that Jesus is, in fact, the Jewish Messiah. Since Jesus didn't actually accomplish the things that the Jewish Messiah is supposed to accomplish, the Christians have to have a way of getting around this. They claim that Jesus will accomplish these things in a 'Second Coming' so that the original Jewish prophecies--as well as a lot of newer prophecies that the Christians throw in for good measure--can come true.

Basically the evidence points to Jesus not being who he is claimed to be, so the Christians are waiting for the Second Coming when it is said that Jesus will produce the evidence in rather dramatic fashion.

Because some of the prophecies--especially the rebuilding of the Temple--are specific to the land of Israel, Christians do in fact have a desire to see a stable government in that area of the world so that their prophecies can come true.

You have no idea what you are talking about! Jesus fulfilled all prophetic points.... there are none that we are waiting on in the second coming! Where did you come up with that? The temple has nothing to do with Jesus fulfilling Messianic prophecy but it is a prophecy for the end days.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[TomAiello 26]

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BTW, what does that have to do with my question about a supposedly biblical motivation for US policy on Israel?

Christians claim that Jesus is, in fact, the Jewish Messiah. Since Jesus didn't actually accomplish the things that the Jewish Messiah is supposed to accomplish, the Christians have to have a way of getting around this. They claim that Jesus will accomplish these things in a 'Second Coming' so that the original Jewish prophecies--as well as a lot of newer prophecies that the Christians throw in for good measure--can come true.

Basically the evidence points to Jesus not being who he is claimed to be, so the Christians are waiting for the Second Coming when it is said that Jesus will produce the evidence in rather dramatic fashion.

Because some of the prophecies--especially the rebuilding of the Temple--are specific to the land of Israel, Christians do in fact have a desire to see a stable government in that area of the world so that their prophecies can come true.

That all sounds like a debate about obscure theological points that belongs in a seminary (or Speakers' Corner). I doubt very much it's having a real influence on US foreign policy.

It sounds like you are saying that, in your opinion, these theological points are a main driver of US foreign policy regarding Israel. Is that a reasonable statement of your position, or am I misunderstanding?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[tkhayes 348]

many of the US Citizens ARE Christians. and by 'Extreme', I do not mean 'terrorist'. I mean right-wing fundamentalist Christians. certainly more of a portion of the population that anywhere else in the world - correct me if you can provide some stat to the contrary.

Is Billy Graham a 'terrorist'? no. Is Billy Graham part of the 'fundamentalist 'extreme' right-wing that I am talking about? Absolutely. America practically invented it, with things like the 'rapture' and such, not even in the freaking Bible, yet believed as part of US Christian culture throughout many churches.

And Billy Graham has had an open invitation to the White House, has sat with with almost every President since he was a preacher in his 20's. Just one of MANY influences in the Whitehouse and in the government in general. so much for the separation of church and state.

So is my point of view out of whack? Not at all. Is it the 'only reason' we support Israel? No, not at all.

But it is a valid 'hidden agenda' disguised as 'support for an ally'.

I do not believe that Israel deserves no support at all, but no support would receive no argument from me either. No support for Pakistan would also receive no argument from me.

I would just like to see those tax dollars used elsewhere - Christ I sound like a Republican......

[SivaGanesha 2]

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It sounds like you are saying that, in your opinion, these theological points are a main driver of US foreign policy regarding Israel. Is that a reasonable statement of your position, or am I misunderstanding?

I don't know to what extent it actually drives US foreign policy towards Israel. A stable Israel is no doubt a worthy goal for the region for solid practical reasons having nothing to do with ancient prophecy, and it is entirely possible that the politicians make decisions with cooler heads than do the people who elected them.

What I WOULD claim is that there is a very large and powerful Christian block of voters in the US for whom Israel is very important--and the reason for that has far more to do with theological prophecy than present day practicalities.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[tkhayes 348]

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what's the odds of a non-Jew ever being elected in Israel to a significant post? I think the 'arab' party got 3 out of 120 seats in the government.

the rest of the seats are all held by 'jewish based parties.

What's the odds of even a 'black' Prime Minister in Israel?

[tkhayes 348]

you are right - I misread the article I had looked at - that appears to be the total aid to Israel over a given period. Current aid in the range of $3B/yr - still a lot of money and still a huge chunk of our foreign aid budget.

And it is set to increase to perhaps $6B/year. http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

[tkhayes 348]

ditto - for those who are wondering what I was talking about - THAT is what I was talking about......

If Israel does not exist, Christian Prophecies (as interpreted by MANY American Christians) cannot possibly come true.

[kelpdiver 2]

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what's the odds of a non-Jew ever being elected in Israel to a significant post? I think the 'arab' party got 3 out of 120 seats in the government.

...

What's the odds of even a 'black' Prime Minister in Israel?

Well, they had a female PM 40 years ago, so that might suggest better odds than we having elected a black PM in a parliamentary system.

And currently there's only one black senator out of 100 in our Senate, and I say his days are numbered. So 3 out of 120 doesn't seem that bad.

[tkhayes 348]

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You have no idea what you are talking about! Jesus fulfilled all prophetic points.... there are none that we are waiting on in the second coming! Where did you come up with that? The temple has nothing to do with Jesus fulfilling Messianic prophecy but it is a prophecy for the end days.

http://www.geocities.com/lvegh/Revelation_Rapture.html

according to this whack-job - the prophecies are far from done. This is an example of what we are talking about. I see it every day here in Zephyrhills, people that believe in the end of the world, the second coming, and-you-better-be-on-the-right-side-or-you-will-die horribly.....

They hand out degrees in this stuff at any number of Christian based colleges in Florida -

funny how these are the same people rooting for intelligent design in the classrooms...... another debate

[kelpdiver 2]

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ditto - for those who are wondering what I was talking about - THAT is what I was talking about......

If Israel does not exist, Christian Prophecies (as interpreted by MANY American Christians) cannot possibly come true.

Is this out of a new Dan Brown book? A secret society of Christians drive foreign policy in Britain and esp America to make sure Israel (the nation) persists so the 3rd coming of Christ will happen?

How many Christians give a shit about prophesies? I've been to many sects and never heard about them once.

[Andy9o8 2]

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Can you explain the comment, then, on the Christian Skydivers Association webpage about this being a 'dying' world?

You're saying that whoever put up a website called "Christian Skydivers Association" is somehow the final spokesmen for all Christian belief? Or is it just that he's the recognized spokesman for the majority of people who consider themselves "christian"?

Seems to me, if this is a dying world, skydiving is a pretty sensible thing to do.



Maybe even BASE.

[rushmc 23]

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you are right - I misread the article I had looked at - that appears to be the total aid to Israel over a given period. Current aid in the range of $3B/yr - still a lot of money and still a huge chunk of our foreign aid budget.

And it is set to increase to perhaps $6B/year. http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

While not necessarily disagreeing with you, when compared to the current budget, you think this is big?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[TomAiello 26]

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Current aid in the range of $3B/yr - still a lot of money and still a huge chunk of our foreign aid budget.

And it is set to increase to perhaps $6B/year. http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

Barack Obushma continues to drive George Obushma's foreign policy objectives forward, harder than George ever did?

Why am I totally unsurprised?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[crustySCSA69 0]

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what's the odds of a non-Jew ever being elected in Israel to a significant post? I think the 'arab' party got 3 out of 120 seats in the government.

the rest of the seats are all held by 'jewish based parties.

What's the odds of even a 'black' Prime Minister in Israel?

They at least have 1 seat.

What's the odds a JEW dropped in the middle of GAZA living longer than 5 minutes, let alone getting a chance to run for a seat ?? Any Jew ??

[idrankwhat 0]

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Is this out of a new Dan Brown book? A secret society of Christians drive foreign policy in Britain and esp America to make sure Israel (the nation) persists so the 3rd coming of Christ will happen?

How many Christians give a shit about prophesies? I've been to many sects and never heard about them once.

Apparently quite a few give a shit, and money too. I was flipping through the channels the other morning and came across Pastor John Hagee and Pat Boone lending their talents to the "on wings of eagles" effort. It's a program to encourage a Jewish migration to Israel. From the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews website

"The Fellowship’s On Wings of Eagles supporters are showing their compassion and concern for the Jewish people, and helping fulfill the biblical prophecies that promise the return to Israel of Jewish exiles from “the four corners of the earth.”"

Hagee and other Christian Zionists are also pretty adamant about not dividing up what they consider to be the promised land. Hagee stated in an interview with Terry Gross ""Joel 3:2 says do not do it. Those who divide up the land of Israel will come under the judgment of God. Therefore, don't do it. It's just that simple."

[Rstanley0312 1]

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many of the US Citizens ARE Christians. and by 'Extreme', I do not mean 'terrorist'. I mean right-wing fundamentalist Christians. certainly more of a portion of the population that anywhere else in the world - correct me if you can provide some stat to the contrary.

Is Billy Graham a 'terrorist'? no. Is Billy Graham part of the 'fundamentalist 'extreme' right-wing that I am talking about? Absolutely. America practically invented it, with things like the 'rapture' and such, not even in the freaking Bible, yet believed as part of US Christian culture throughout many churches.

And Billy Graham has had an open invitation to the White House, has sat with with almost every President since he was a preacher in his 20's. Just one of MANY influences in the Whitehouse and in the government in general. so much for the separation of church and state.

So is my point of view out of whack? Not at all. Is it the 'only reason' we support Israel? No, not at all.

But it is a valid 'hidden agenda' disguised as 'support for an ally'.

I do not believe that Israel deserves no support at all, but no support would receive no argument from me either. No support for Pakistan would also receive no argument from me.

I would just like to see those tax dollars used elsewhere - Christ I sound like a Republican......

Hahaha.... you sure as shit do! By your definition I would say there are many Christians who have those beliefs but I would also say there are many that do not! I am one Christian that knows there is no mention of the rapture or even an "anti-christ" for that matter. I would just tell you that I think there are many more Christians that do not go out on that limb and that there are many that cherish their faith and don't go to those extremes.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[Rstanley0312 1]

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You have no idea what you are talking about! Jesus fulfilled all prophetic points.... there are none that we are waiting on in the second coming! Where did you come up with that? The temple has nothing to do with Jesus fulfilling Messianic prophecy but it is a prophecy for the end days.

http://www.geocities.com/lvegh/Revelation_Rapture.html

according to this whack-job - the prophecies are far from done. This is an example of what we are talking about. I see it every day here in Zephyrhills, people that believe in the end of the world, the second coming, and-you-better-be-on-the-right-side-or-you-will-die horribly.....

They hand out degrees in this stuff at any number of Christian based colleges in Florida -

funny how these are the same people rooting for intelligent design in the classrooms...... another debate

Ok Tk.... first of all you know me..... I graduated from Cincinnati Bible College and I am not going around preaching or telling people you better be on the right side. I am a bigger fan of showing my faith through my actions! I figure if someone wants to talk about it they will ask and if they want to hear preaching then they will go to church. I can tell you that this guy is a train wreck! Do I believe in the end times..... ya.... everything has an end I just believe it has to do with God if you don't thats fine with me. I am just saying that Jesus according to the Bible (old/new testament) fulfilled everything he needed to fulfill according to Hebrew prophecy and that there is nothing else that needs to be fulfilled. We are now getting in to too much theology.... my point is that non Christians don't like broad strokes of a brush well this Christian is saying I don't like that either. Don't lump me or a large part of the Christian faith in with the whackos....

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[idrankwhat 0]

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Don't lump me or a large part of the Christian faith in with the whackos....

I would certainly not do that, not in any religion. However a well funded whacko minority can have an inordinate influence on the debate.

[Rstanley0312 1]

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Don't lump me or a large part of the Christian faith in with the whackos....

I would certainly not do that, not in any religion. However a well funded whacko minority can have an inordinate influence on the debate.

agreed

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[tkhayes 348]

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I can tell you that this guy is a train wreck! Do I believe in the end times..... ya.... everything has an end I just believe it has to do with God if you don't thats fine with me. I am just saying that Jesus according to the Bible (old/new testament) fulfilled everything he needed to fulfill according to Hebrew prophecy and that there is nothing else that needs to be fulfilled.

So sez you. And I believe that you believe that. Part of the problem that I have with religion is a whole bunch of the 'exact same Christians' who read the 'exact same Bible' come to completely different conclusions as you.

And a lot of them apparently live in Zephyrhills (the south in general). Like I said, I hear this crap pretty much every day.

This sort of hypocrisy is exactly why I decided it was all bunk when i was 14.

But enough of that. You and I both know that a lot of people believe in the Revelations and the Rapture. And I think at least 'some' of that influence is driving US/Israeli policy.

[sundevil777 102]

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I am just saying that Jesus according to the Bible (old/new testament) fulfilled everything he needed to fulfill according to Hebrew prophecy and that there is nothing else that needs to be fulfilled.

Perhaps a refund from the Cinci Bible College is in order.

What was the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world—on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[georgerussia 0]

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If that were true, only jews would have the right to vote in Israel, and I'm pretty sure that's not the case.

There are some artifacts still left - for example, you cannot legally marry in Israel if you or your fiancée are not Jewish, but Israel recognizes marriages performed in other countries so it's not a big problem. Still there are some of religion-related ugliness which is the reason why a lot of Jews don't want to live there. Of course, comparing to almost everything around, it's a pretty Western country :)

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *