Butters 0 #401 June 5, 2009 QuoteIt would be absurd to allow men to simply walk away from the responsibilities of parenthood simply because they would choose abortion if it were their choice to make. But it's not absurd to allow women to simply walk away from the responsibilities of parenthood simply because they would choose abortion?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #402 June 5, 2009 QuoteHow so - I don't recall anything in the suggestions that lets the man decide whether or not an abortion is done - I'll have dig the post back up and re-read it. Edit: found it You found the wrong post! Here is Bill's proposal (to which I commented): QuoteLet's say that, before you had sex with anyone (birth control or no) you had the option of signing a slip of paper. You could choose: -Responsible. You agree to support the child 50/50, no matter what. Any decision on abortion is made by both partners and must be unanimous. -Not responsible. The man gives up all rights to any potential child, the woman agrees she will raise the child on her own if it comes to that, abortion is solely at the discretion of the woman. The woman can then never go after the man for support, and the man can never make a claim for custody of the child. If both don't sign it reverts back to what we have now. I added boldface to highlight the portion that removes the female's right to choose for herself what to do with her own body.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,461 #403 June 5, 2009 Quote But it's not absurd to allow women to simply walk away from the responsibilities of parenthood simply because they would choose abortion? Legally, parenthood starts when a baby is born. Until that time, there is no child to support. Emotionally is a different story for many, but we're not talking emotionally here Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #404 June 5, 2009 QuoteQuoteHow so - I don't recall anything in the suggestions that lets the man decide whether or not an abortion is done - I'll have dig the post back up and re-read it. Edit: found it You found the wrong post! Here is Bill's proposal (to which I commented): QuoteLet's say that, before you had sex with anyone (birth control or no) you had the option of signing a slip of paper. You could choose: -Responsible. You agree to support the child 50/50, no matter what. Any decision on abortion is made by both partners and must be unanimous. -Not responsible. The man gives up all rights to any potential child, the woman agrees she will raise the child on her own if it comes to that, abortion is solely at the discretion of the woman. The woman can then never go after the man for support, and the man can never make a claim for custody of the child. If both don't sign it reverts back to what we have now. I added boldface to highlight the portion that removes the female's right to choose for herself what to do with her own body. wrong Bill - that's Billvon and he's noting the perfect world type of scenario where everyone talks to each other and consensus decisions are normal I really don't think you guys even keep track of the posts. I mean, REALLY, it's only liek 16 pages of the stuff. You must have a real life outside of SC ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #405 June 5, 2009 Quote2 - that they find it distasteful to even discuss the idea of the dad having the right to be a deadbeat, so they refuse to assign it the parallel to the woman's choice to abort. In other words, they apply logic rationally and are able to understand why the two scenarios are not "parallel." QuoteWhat's uncomfortable (and it should be) is shining the light on the fact that a man refusing to raise the child he made is the moral gender equivalent of the woman refusing to bear and raise the child she made. Wrong. A woman has a right to abort a pregnancy. Aborting a pregnancy is in no way the same as avoiding the responsibility of being a parent and refusing to raise the child. There is no child in the former scenario. Apply basic logic, and you'll understand that simple fact of the matter. QuoteAnd that the legal system and political environment celebrates one, but demonizes the other. Bullshit.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #406 June 5, 2009 Quote "Pay or you go to jail" - yeah, I guess he does have a choice to make for himself - pay, or go to jail. The male has his opportunity to choose long before then. That there is a child is a very strong indicator of what his choice was.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #407 June 5, 2009 Quote Quote But it's not absurd to allow women to simply walk away from the responsibilities of parenthood simply because they would choose abortion? Legally, parenthood starts when a baby is born. Until that time, there is no child to support. Emotionally is a different story for many, but we're not talking emotionally here Wendy P. Correct, parenthood starts when a baby is born. However, I still don't understand how a woman can abort a fetus which terminates support for the child while a man can't terminate support for fetus (which terminates support for the child)? PS: The claim that the fetus will become a child and a child requires support can not be used because then it could be used against abortion ..."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #408 June 5, 2009 Quote Quote What's uncomfortable (and it should be) is shining the light on the fact that a man refusing to raise the child he made is the moral gender equivalent of the woman refusing to bear and raise the child she made. Wrong. A woman has a right to abort a pregnancy. Aborting a pregnancy is in no way the same as avoiding the responsibility of being a parent and refusing to raise the child. There is no child in the former scenario. Do you understand where children come from? PS: There is no child in the scenario where the man is allowed to make a decision during the same period of time that the woman is."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #409 June 5, 2009 Quoteas for prevention, that's a given - both can do something at the start. It doesn't really play. The male has one more major option/choice than the female in that respect. Thus, allowing a female to choose what to do with her own body does not give her more opportunities to choose than the male has.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #410 June 5, 2009 QuoteQuoteas for prevention, that's a given - both can do something at the start. It doesn't really play. The male has one more major option/choice than the female in that respect. Really, what option/choice is that?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #411 June 5, 2009 QuoteQuoteBut it's not absurd to allow women to simply walk away from the responsibilities of parenthood simply because they would choose abortion? Legally, parenthood starts when a baby is born. Until that time, there is no child to support party line - so when a woman aborts, the ONLY thing she is declining is the physical pregnancy? And the idea of declining the resultant raising of a baby, toddler, teenager, etc is not even a tiny bit of the choice? nonsense - she is aborting the end result of being a mother. Not just the temporary medical condition. That's just used as an argument to make it more palatable. it's about parity of choices by the man and woman, not legalese (legal-ease). The whole discussion is why the legal and political positions currently foster an unequal status between men and women. Woman have the legal right of choice - men don't. We fixed one, now how do we fix the other? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #412 June 5, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteas for prevention, that's a given - both can do something at the start. It doesn't really play. The male has one more major option/choice than the female in that respect. Really, what option/choice is that? riverdance ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #413 June 5, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote as for prevention, that's a given - both can do something at the start. It doesn't really play. The male has one more major option/choice than the female in that respect. Really, what option/choice is that? riverdance Isn't that the same as abstinence? "That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #414 June 5, 2009 Quotewhen I said the man "aborted" I didn't mean he forces the woman to abort, I just mean he chooses to not want the child If a woman aborts a pregnancy, there is no child. Giving men the option to turn their back on children that they father without any legal implications has no corresponding option for females. It's not remotely similar to the female's option to abort a fetus, which doesn't involve a child. If you have a kid, you're responsible for raising that kid.. It applies equally to fathers and mothers.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #415 June 5, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote He has autonomy is in the choices he makes. "Pay or you go to jail" - yeah, I guess he does have a choice to make for himself - pay, or go to jail. She has the same choices if he has custody. So, if those are the choices you want to discuss; yes, there is equality. He has other choices, if the woman decides to carry to term? Please enlighten me. I've actually mentioned them multiple times: vasectomy, barrior contraceptives, or other options w/r/t sex. Artificially limiting the window of possible opportunities for a man to make choices to the nine months before birth is roughly akin to telling someone that they can only deploy their main in the last 900 feet of a skydive; it makes no sense, especially if you jumped from an Otter at 14k. Recognizing the current state of biology is that only women get pregnate, the options for a man to chose to not impregnate a woman aren't part of hypothetical scenarios. Pretending or insisting that he doesn't have those options (or she have contraceptive options as well) and that the only option is abort/not abort makes it a less than a logically robust proposition. /Marg The woman is pregnant - whether it was her contraception or his that failed is immaterial. He doesn't have custody, since he didn't want the baby in the first place (hence why he's at the "pay or jail" juncture). Tell me what OTHER options he has besides "pay or jail" in that situation, and why that DOESN'T affect his autonomy? She just did, rather clearly.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #416 June 5, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote as for prevention, that's a given - both can do something at the start. It doesn't really play. The male has one more major option/choice than the female in that respect. Really, what option/choice is that? riverdance Isn't that the same as abstinence? not in theory, but in practice the results are the same except in a couple of obscure locations in Ireland and San Francisco ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #417 June 5, 2009 QuoteIf she didn't want the child, she has the option of adoption or abortion - that doesn't play. Once a child is part of the scenario, there is no option for abortion. That important point seems to be ignored by those whining about how unfair parenthood is for men. QuoteAnd so did she Not to a similar extent. QuoteThe fact is that HIS responsibility is tied to HER decision, regardless of his wishes - that is the point of the scenario, to show that inequality. Incorrect. His responsibility is tied to his child. If he didn't want to have a child, he should have taken greater care to prevent the possibility.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #418 June 5, 2009 QuoteBut it's not absurd to allow women to simply walk away from the responsibilities of parenthood simply because they would choose abortion? Having an abortion is not walking away from the responsibilities of parenthood. Parenthood implies the existence of a child. Abortion implies the lack of existence of a child. The responsibilities of parenthood are to the child. The convenience of either child is secondary to the child's wellness.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #419 June 5, 2009 QuoteIf a woman aborts a pregnancy, there is no child. Exactly, she eliminated the fetus => eliminates the (potential for a) child => eliminates her responsibility to raise the child this is not a position of right vs wrong - it's just the facts we've beaten this difference in (chosen) viewpoints to death. I just find your viewpoint to be 'convenient' and pretty much rote from the playbook. But I do understand that argument. I disagree. IMO Appreciate you do the same (acknowledge the different O) and acknowledge you disagree. That's fine. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #420 June 5, 2009 QuoteHaving an abortion is not walking away from the responsibilities of parenthood. that's exactly what it is - and if it's legal for the mother, why not make it legal for the father? (it's wrong if done for casual reasons - if that makes you 'feel' better about it.....) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #421 June 5, 2009 QuoteThe whole discussion is why the legal and political positions currently foster an unequal status between men and women. Woman have the legal right of choice - men don't. We fixed one, now how do we fix the other? Because there is a biologically unequal status between men and women when it comes to pregnancy. I don't think it's a "fixable" situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #422 June 5, 2009 Quotewrong Bill - that's Billvon I sometimes forget that your username is an anagram for W. (William) Maher, and thus you are called Bill, also. BTW, while I don't get to watch it often, I do enjoy your show on the occasions I do get to watch. You were pretty good in Religulous, too.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #423 June 5, 2009 QuoteHaving an abortion is not walking away from the responsibilities of parenthood. If the abortion is because she simply didn't want a child, then yes, it is walking away from the responsibilities of parenthood (along with not wanting to carry a pregnancy to term). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #424 June 5, 2009 QuoteDo you understand where children come from? If you have your doubts, feel free to explain. QuotePS: There is no child in the scenario where the man is allowed to make a decision during the same period of time that the woman is. In real life, the man is given his opportunity to choose before the woman is given hers. I would have thought that anyone who understands where children come from would recognize that fact.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #425 June 5, 2009 Quote Quote But it's not absurd to allow women to simply walk away from the responsibilities of parenthood simply because they would choose abortion? Having an abortion is not walking away from the responsibilities of parenthood. Parenthood implies the existence of a child. Abortion implies the lack of existence of a child. The responsibilities of parenthood are to the child. The convenience of either child is secondary to the child's wellness. Blah, blah, blah ... you are trying to argue that a man is denying support for a child by denying support for a fetus while simultaneously arguing that a mother isn't denying support for a child by aborting the fetus. Regardless, I'm going to take the wise words of Wendy and stop dealing with individuals like yourself ..."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
