BSBD Tiller the Baby Killer

[rehmwa 2]

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The whole discussion is why the legal and political positions currently foster an unequal status between men and women. Woman have the legal right of choice - men don't. We fixed one, now how do we fix the other?

Because there is a biologically unequal status between men and women when it comes to pregnancy. I don't think it's a "fixable" situation.

the fix is posted - because some people find it distasteful just proves it as a good analogy

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jcd11235 0]

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Really, what option/choice is that?

After all the decisions are made w/r/t whether or not to have sex, after all the decisions are made w/r/t what form(s) of birth control are used, the male is faced with a decision regarding the location of his penis at time of ejaculation. There are lots of options (Feel free to start a thread in Bonfire if you seek an enumerated list). Most pose no risk of pregnancy.

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[Butters 0]

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Do you understand where children come from?

If you have your doubts, feel free to explain.

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Randy: A-alright, now, now listen, kids. There's some things we need to put into context for you. You see, a man puts his penis into a woman's vagina for both love and pleasure. But sometimes the woman lays on top of the man facing the other way so that they can put each other's genitals in their mouths. Uh this is called "sixty-nining" and it's normal.
Sharon: See boys, a woman is sensitive in her vagina and it... feels good to have a man's penis inside of it.
Sheila: That's right, but sometimes a woman chooses to use other things. Telephones, staplers, magazines. It's because the nerve endings in the vagina are so sensitive, it's like a fun tickle.
Gerald: Now, on to double penetration, boys. You see, sometimes when a woman has sex with more than one man, each man makes love to a different orifice.
Randy: That's right. It's something adults can do with really good friends in a comfortable setting.
Sheila: It's also important that you understand why some people choose to urinate on each other.
Randy: Going number 1 or number 2 on your lover is something people might do, but you must make sure your partner is okay with it before you start doing it.
Gerald: Okay boys. Do you have any questions?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Shotgun 1]

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The whole discussion is why the legal and political positions currently foster an unequal status between men and women. Woman have the legal right of choice - men don't. We fixed one, now how do we fix the other?

Because there is a biologically unequal status between men and women when it comes to pregnancy. I don't think it's a "fixable" situation.

the fix is posted - because some people find it distasteful just proves it as a good analogy

I have seen no "fix" posted - distasteful or otherwise.

And since men can't get pregnant or anything like it, there really is no analogy to be made regarding abortion. You seem to be trying to make one, but I disagree that it is "good." I think "silly" would be a better word for it.

[jcd11235 0]

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That's just used as an argument to make it more palatable.

Actually, it is the application of basic logic. It has nothing to do with a party line. The refusal to recognize such basic logic, on the other hand …

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The whole discussion is why the legal and political positions currently foster an unequal status between men and women. Woman have the legal right of choice - men don't. We fixed one, now how do we fix the other?

Men do have that choice. They simply have to make it at a different point in time.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Butters 0]

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... the male is faced with a decision regarding the location of his penis at time of ejaculation.

If you really believe that this is the only time during intercourse that a man can get a woman pregnant than you really should take a sexual education course ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[jcd11235 0]

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If a woman aborts a pregnancy, there is no child.

Exactly, she eliminated the fetus => eliminates the (potential for a) child => eliminates her responsibility to raise the child

Sure. In other news, I eliminated my responsibility to try to bring peace to the Middle East by not becoming a candidate for POTUS yesterday.

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I just find your viewpoint to be 'convenient' and pretty much rote from the playbook.

Perhaps that's because the playbook I'm using is entitled Basic Logic. Making logical arguments is rather convenient, to be completely honest. You might conclude the same thing if you should give it a try.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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that's exactly what it is

Not even close.

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[jcd11235 0]

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Blah, blah, blah ... you are trying to argue that a man is denying support for a child by denying support for a fetus …

I made no such argument.

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… while simultaneously arguing that a mother isn't denying support for a child by aborting the fetus.

I made and stand by that statement. In that scenario, there is no child. Without a child, there is no walking away from the responsibility of the child. It is simple, basic logic. Why so many people have so much trouble grasping logic, I'll never understand.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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If you really believe that this is the only time during intercourse that a man can get a woman pregnant than you really should take a sexual education course ...

If you read the other posts I've made in this thread, you'll see that I went into greater detail the first couple times I explained. I repeated the simplified version for you.

The simple fact of the matter is that if the egg is not fertilized by a sperm, there is no chance of pregnancy. The male has substantial control regarding whether that fertilization can possibly take place, given that sex is occurring.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[wmw999 2,460]

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we've beaten this difference in (chosen) viewpoints to death.

It's not quite dead...

If each participant in the sex act carried 1/2 the baby, then there would be an equal ability to choose. And they could still fight, so it'd be OK.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 3,008]

>I made and stand by that statement. In that scenario, there is no child.

There was the potential for a child. The woman ended her physical support for it, and thus the potential child died. (Which is what abortion is.) She gets to make that choice so that she will not have to support the (potential) child.

Why can't a man and a woman, together, decide that they should get an abortion, or raise the child together, or have one raise the child while the other has no part in it? Why does the law currently disallow such a legal agreement?

[wmw999 2,460]

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Why can't a man and a woman, together, decide that they should get an abortion, or raise the child together, or have one raise the child while the other has no part in it? Why does the law currently disallow such a legal agreement?

I believe there's nothing wrong with that arrangement as long as the custodial parent doesn't get welfare.

And a legal agreement that enforces a procedure on only one party's body would be difficult to enforce.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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Why can't a man and a woman, together, decide that they should get an abortion, or raise the child together, or have one raise the child while the other has no part in it?

?

I think in many (perhaps most?) cases, this is exactly what happens - the man and woman make a decision together.

[billvon 3,008]

>I believe there's nothing wrong with that arrangement as long as the
>custodial parent doesn't get welfare.

I don't think that's currently enforceable. You can make any sort of agreement you want, but once the woman changes her mind later, she can request (and get) child support (AFAIK.) And of course as you mentioned there's no way to enforce anything that has to do with abortion. So you have an agreement that, no matter what, only the man would be legally bound by.

[wmw999 2,460]

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So you have an agreement that, no matter what, only the man would be legally bound by.

Well, there are all kinds of laws prohibiting one person from forcing medical procedures on another. Think of the conversations that go on about whether or not forced castration is a reasonable option for sexual predators.

Maybe the fact that the consequences of sex are uneven for the two participants would dictate that the rights are also uneven.

But men generally have more muscle mass for their weight, and therefore can eat and drink more for the same body weight without negative effects, so there's a difference that acts in the man's favor.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Shotgun 1]

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>I believe there's nothing wrong with that arrangement as long as the
>custodial parent doesn't get welfare.

I don't think that's currently enforceable. You can make any sort of agreement you want, but once the woman changes her mind later, she can request (and get) child support (AFAIK.) And of course as you mentioned there's no way to enforce anything that has to do with abortion. So you have an agreement that, no matter what, only the man would be legally bound by.

What if they agree that he has custody while she has no part in it? Wouldn't it be the same if he later changed his mind and requests (and gets) child support from her?

[billvon 3,008]

>Maybe the fact that the consequences of sex are uneven for the two
>participants would dictate that the rights are also uneven.

I agree that they are - but is that OK?

Women, of course, bear children, and often quit working to raise the child. Does that mean that that should be taken into account when making employment decisions or decisions on raises? They are, as you mentioned, physically different. Should they be therefore not hired for certain jobs that require muscle? Those are also decisions made because there are physical differences between men and women, but that alone is not sufficient reason to claim that therefore their rights should be different.

[billvon 3,008]

>What if they agree that he has custody while she has no part in it? Wouldn't
>it be the same if he later changed his mind and requests (and gets) child support
>from her?

It would be, but should not be. In both cases, an agreement should be enforceable even if a party to it later changes their mind.

[downwardspiral 0]

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I see your point. The only logical solution to the inequality is to remove the mother's option to abort.

Kind of an odd pro-life angle but I get it.

That's not the scenario. And I'm pro-choice. The difference is, I'm also pro-choice for the male. She gets to decline having and raising a kid. So should he. They should both get the same choice.

In the end, all I hear is that the man and woman really do have the 'same rights'

she gets to choose to abort or not any fetus in her uterus

he also gets to choose to abort or not any fetus in his uterus

(please refer to equivalent rights in different scenarios in any gay marriage thread in SC for further reference in which all parties trade sides)

So you think the right of the father to refuse to be (as the woman can refuse to be a mother) trumps the welfare of the child?

There was a proposition not long ago that would require notification of the parents or guardian by the MD if a pregnant underage girl were to desire an abortion.... did you vote yes?

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[Shotgun 1]

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>What if they agree that he has custody while she has no part in it? Wouldn't
>it be the same if he later changed his mind and requests (and gets) child support
>from her?

It would be, but should not be. In both cases, an agreement should be enforceable even if a party to it later changes their mind.

Yeah, I agree with that.

So, in this case (where the man later demands child support), it would be an agreement that only the woman was legally bound by.

[wmw999 2,460]

I hear what you're saying, and, frankly, even sympathize. Of course, in the aggregate, women are paid less than men, even in comparable jobs. Yes, it's illegal, but it happens.

Because "comparable" is rarely "identical".

Potential pregnancy is different from actual pregnancy.

What we're really doing is creating a "rights" hierarchy. Maybe it should be reverse-aligned with Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

physiological
safety
love/belonging
esteem
self-actualization

And, of course, with that, the issue of when the fetus becomes a person gets to be singularly important again, doesn't it?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Butters 0]

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Because "comparable" is rarely "identical".

True, but just because we can't make things "identical" doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make "comparable".

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[wmw999 2,460]

What is comparable with the effects of pregnancy on the mother's body and life?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Butters 0]

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What is comparable with the effects of pregnancy on the mother's body and life?

Wendy P.

Remember, we're not comparing biology, we're comparing legal choices.

PS: But I could argue that the effects on the father's body and life dealing with the effects of a pregnancy on the mother's body and life could be comparable. Yes, it's a joke, relax ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch