Shotgun 1 #26 June 1, 2009 QuoteThat's a really good idea, and I'd be all in favor of donating to it. I wonder if Planned Parenthood would be able to provide the know-how of setting it up? I know that donating to Planned Parenthood would be anathema to many pro-lifers, but most of what they do is contraception. I believe that Planned Parenthood already provides free birth control to low-income women - at least at some of their locations. But yeah, I doubt they get many donations from pro-life people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrophyHusband 0 #27 June 1, 2009 QuoteI see there are some 2nd and 3rd trimester votes - I'm really curious to hear from those people. I'd like to know their thinking (genuinely). Ian i voted third trimester, but that's not entirely accurate. viability is where i draw the line, but even that is a huge gray area. "Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama www.kjandmegan.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #28 June 1, 2009 I tend to agree. I am "pro-choice", but not in a million years because I want to see anyone abort or be in the position to even have to consider it. I have said enough already in previous threads on the subject, and I still feel very, very strongly I would rather see a baby aborted than have gone through "the system" unwanted. It is the lesser evil, imo. Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #29 June 2, 2009 Quote I tried to make the poll have good options but I'm sure there are some choices that dont fit in the above, if so, please state them below. I really wonder why some people call it "pro-life" while in fact it is just "anti-choice". Actually at least some of those "pro-life" seems to have no problem with murder themselves - as long as it's not unborn children.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LyraM45 0 #30 June 2, 2009 QuoteQuoteViability comes around the beginning of the third.QuoteI'm not sure I agree with that. It was pretty obvious my wife was pregnant within the first trimester. CERTAINLY within the second trimester.I think there's a misreading -- viability, not visibilitiy. Viability most definitely is about the start of the third trimester. I used to be entirely (i.e. "up to the time the head emerges from the birth canal") pro-choice. That was wrong. But I'm pretty solidly pro-choice through the end of the second trimester, with less and less sympathy the longer one goes. Personally, I'd really, really like to see free birth control. That would cut down the incidence of abortion. Wouldn't eliminate it, but it would cut it down. And as far as "how can you now know?" If you have irregular periods and are overweight, or if you exercise enough to suffer from occasional amenorrhea, then it's not that hard to understand not knowing for awhile. And once you've not figured it out for (say) 2 months, then all of a sudden by the time you really think about it, and make arrangements, talk to the father, etc. you're probably already pushing the second trimester. Wendy P. I, too, would LOVE to see birth control more readily available to sexually active people. It's a catch 22-- most of the conservatives who are hard core pro-life, are also against making birth control so readily available because it's basically like saying pre marital and teenage sex is OK. Well, you gotta pick one, and I'd rather see some chick on the pill than throwing her baby in the trash or getting a late term abortion if we can help it. In fact, I believe some of the reason teens aren't getting the birth control they need is because of the message being sent from conservative friends/family/parents that if they do it they are "evil," and "sinning." They are ashamed to ask for birth control because of what these people think of them, and instead will quietly just have sex and end up pregnant. Acutally, I read a story recently that said because of this exact reason, teens from christian households are something like twice as likely to become pregnant compared to teens from a non-faith background. I'll have to find that story and post the source, but I only have a few minutes to post right now. I speak from personal experience when I was in high school I was certified through a state program as a senior to teach sex ed to teenagers in middleschool/high school as a peer to peer type of thing where they coudl ask anything they wanted and not be embarassed. The art teacher across the hall stormed into the class on more than one occasion (he was also the lay assistant at the local methodist church) to tell everybody how bad this was to teach these kids sex ed and stuff about contraception. He even took it to the school board. (and we were suggesting abstinence, of course... but lets be real, they needed to know the other stuff too.) But anywho... sorry for the long story, but I really think we could solve this problem from the start if we nipped it in the bud with something as simple as a pill.Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #31 June 2, 2009 If you choose to abort, you lose....but it's still your choice....just like every other pathetic cop-out.....Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,447 #32 June 2, 2009 Is it a pathetic cop-out if you were using what is normally reliable birth control properly? Is it a pathetic cop-out if the health of the mother is compromised seriously by the pregnancy? Is it a pathetic cop-out if the baby is non-viable? Is it a pathetic cop-out if it's selective reduction for a high-order multiple birth? Is it a cop-out if it's for one's 13-year-old daughter who got involved in drugs and the wrong crowd? Yes, each of these could have been prevented (well, except for the non-viable baby one). But, ya know -- most of them have happend to very nice people who were trying really hard to do the right thing. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #33 June 2, 2009 Planned Parenthood provides birth control (pills, condoms, shots, don't know about IUDs) on a sliding scale based on your income. If your income is below a certain point, your birth control and whatever medical care you need, such as routine exams and STD testing, are free. They ask for a donation if you can afford to leave one, and if you can't, there's no pressure. I'm pro-choice, although I'd never choose abortion for myself unless my life was in danger or the fetus was non-viable. Admittedly, my decision is based largely on my huge network of family support and my desire to be a parent. If I didn't have one of those two things, my decision may be different. Allowing abortion for only certain reasons (rape, incest, etc) encourages those that want an abortion to lie and file false police reports to get an abortion. I don't like policies that encourage that. I don't want to see a return to the days of the rich travelling overseas to get abortions safely, and the poor going to some back alley hack with a coathanger. Abortion as a whole is generally not a decision one undertakes lightly (and if they do, do you really want that person to be a parent??). I've had the opportunity to think over the situation and decide what I would choose if I found myself with an unexpected pregnancy, and I'm not going to deny someone else the same opportunity to make a choice for themselves, even if they would choose differently from me. It is not my place to force my choice on them, as I have not lived their life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #34 June 2, 2009 Quote If you choose to abort, you lose....but it's still your choice....just like every other pathetic cop-out..... That is the truth for those that choose Christianity as a basis for the meaning of life (most pro lifers). You could use your own brain to work out lifes intricacies or you could simply do what you are told. Not using your brain is life’s biggest cop out. Christians (pro lifers) don't use their own brain they are told what to do. That statemnt was hillarious, thanks for making my day! "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #35 June 2, 2009 Intellectually, I know that the law allows a woman to have an abortion at any time. That is the law, so that is what is legal. Emotionally, I feel that 3rd trimester abortions should only be done in the case of a PHYSICAL threat to the life of the mother, or fatal birth defects in the fetus.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #36 June 2, 2009 QuoteEmotionally, I feel that 3rd trimester abortions should only be done in the case of a PHYSICAL threat to the life of the mother, or fatal birth defects in the fetus. Me too, that is the law where I am from, you have enough time to know before it gets to that stage."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #37 June 3, 2009 QuoteMe too, that is the law where I am from, you have enough time to know before it gets to that stage. Observing most men discussing abortion is a lot like observing most whuffos discussing skydiving.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #38 June 3, 2009 I think those may be some of the exceptions. In any event it's a horrible dilema...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #39 June 3, 2009 Quote That statemnt was hillarious, thanks for making my day! cool...Bonus!Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #40 June 3, 2009 Pro-choice...anytime.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,447 #41 June 3, 2009 QuoteI think those may be some of the exceptions.And how many exceptions should be punished so that the folks you think are irresponsible are properly punished? Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #42 June 3, 2009 Quote i voted third trimester, but that's not entirely accurate. viability is where i draw the line, but even that is a huge gray area. That's about where I come down, based on viability - but with a caveat: "viability" varies with the evolution of medical technology. And that varies over time. Suppose, some time in the future, medical technology evolves to the point where a zygote can be nurtured and sustained in vitro to full maturity from the instant of conception. Would "viability" then not exist from the instant of conception? If the answer is Yes, then logically, abortion of a zygote after at the instant of conception would be abortion of a viable fetus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,447 #43 June 3, 2009 And would that mean that every miscarriage would be subject to human burial laws and customs? If it's back to the moment of conception, women would probably need to subject their tampons for inspection. And would not taking care of oneself during pregnancy constitute reportable child abuse? Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #44 June 3, 2009 QuoteIf the answer is Yes, then logically, abortion of a zygote after at the instant of conception would be abortion of a viable fetus. The problem with that is that you'd have to get the state involved with removing the zygotes and nurturing them in an artificial environment. Which would open up another huge mess.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 1 #45 June 9, 2009 QuoteI used to be pro-life, with no exceptions, but that has definitely changed over the past few years. There are so many truly unwanted children in the world.... foster kids, neglected kids, abandoned kids, those kids that slip through the cracks, and many end up really hurting society by draining resources, eating up welfare money, etc. I'd much rather see the focus be on preventing the 'need' for abortion.... easy access to sterilization, birth control, education, foster care reform, more adoptions of older children to help break the cycle, etc. Solve the root problem (unwanted pregnancy) and the symptom (abortion) goes away. So why not start killing foster kids? No, that wouldn't be right......kill them before they are offically "kids". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 1 #46 June 9, 2009 QuoteHonestly, unless the baby is viable outside the womb, I think it's still got to be the mother's choice. What baby can survive outside of the womb without help? They can't feed themself, or find shelter. What is the differenvce between a partial birth abortion and a mother throwing her kid in a dumpster right after having the kid? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #47 June 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteHonestly, unless the baby is viable outside the womb, I think it's still got to be the mother's choice. What baby can survive outside of the womb without help? They can't feed themself, or find shelter. What is the differenvce between a partial birth abortion and a mother throwing her kid in a dumpster right after having the kid? One is a legal medical procedure (even though I disagree with it) and the other is abandonment of a child (at minimum).Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #48 June 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteHonestly, unless the baby is viable outside the womb, I think it's still got to be the mother's choice.What is the differenvce between a partial birth abortion and a mother throwing her kid in a dumpster right after having the kid? The difference is that the fetus must sustain itself directly from the mother's body. The hypothetical dumpster baby could be sustained by another person. Your analogy between the partial birth abortion and the dumpster doesn't really speak to the point I made, because in the case of a partial birth abortion you're talking about a fetus that could survive without the mother's body, given the correct care from other people. The "viability" standard basically means that you draw a line at the point that the fetus can be sustained by persons other than the mother, without physically nurturing itself from the mother's body. Viability happens well before birth, and moves back a bit with each new medical advance. In theory, some day we'll reach a point at which viability occurs at conception, and then viability won't really be a valid standard for this debate any more.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 1 #49 June 9, 2009 QuoteQuote I tried to make the poll have good options but I'm sure there are some choices that dont fit in the above, if so, please state them below. I really wonder why some people call it "pro-life" while in fact it is just "anti-choice". Actually at least some of those "pro-life" seems to have no problem with murder themselves - as long as it's not unborn children. Or calling pro-choice anti-children or anti-life as you are ending a life of a child. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 1 #50 June 9, 2009 QuoteQuoteMe too, that is the law where I am from, you have enough time to know before it gets to that stage. Observing most men discussing abortion is a lot like observing most whuffos discussing skydiving. Because we should have no say at all in the choice as to if "our" (actually half our) child should be born or aborted (Murdered)? What happened to equal rights? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
