Andy9o8 2 #1 June 8, 2009 http://www.ala.org/ala/alonline/currentnews/newsarchive/2009/june2009/westbendbabybebop060309.cfm QuoteMilwaukee Group Seeks Fiery Alternative to Materials Challenge Life grows more interesting by the day for officials of the West Bend (Wis.) Community Memorial Library. After four months of grappling with an evolving challenge to young-adult materials deemed sexually explicit by area residents Ginny and Jim Maziarka, library trustees voted 9–0 June 2 to maintain the young-adult collection as is “without removing, relocating, labeling, or otherwise restricting access” to any titles. However, board members were made cognizant that same evening that another material challenge waited in the wings: Milwaukee-area citizen Robert C. Braun of the Christian Civil Liberties Union (CCLU) distributed at the meeting copies of a claim for damages he and three other plaintiffs filed April 28 with the city; the complainants seek the right to publicly burn or destroy by another means the library’s copy of Baby Be-Bop. The claim also demands $120,000 in compensatory damages ($30,000 per plaintiff) for being exposed to the book in a library display, and the resignation of West Bend Mayor Kristine Deiss for “allow[ing] this book to be viewed by the public.” The unanimous vote rejecting the Maziarkas’ challenge came after trustees heard several dozen comments for and against restricting the materials, as well as being presented with opposing petitions: 700 signatures on the petition circulated by West Bend Citizens for Safe Libraries, a group formed by the Maziarkas, and more than 1,000 on an anti-restriction petition from the newly formed West Bend Parents for Free Speech. Ironically, four of the trustees were denied reappointment in April by the city council because they did not comply with the Maziarkas’ reconsideration requests and are serving until their successors are appointed. Accusing the board of submitting to the will of the American Library Association and the American Civil Liberties Union, Ginny Maziarka declared, “We vehemently reject their standards and their principles,” and characterized the debate as “a propaganda battle to maintain access to inappropriate material.” She cautioned that her group would let people know that the library was not a safe place unless it segregated and labeled YA titles with explicit content. However, after the meeting board President Barbara Deter emphasized that it was the couple’s “freedom of speech” to challenge any individual library holding, according to the June 3 Greater Milwaukee Today. For the immediate future, West Bend officials will be dealing with the CCLU’s legal claim. Describing the YA novel by celebrated author Francesca Lia Block as “explicitly vulgar, racial, and anti-Christian,” the complaint by Braun, Joseph Kogelmann, Rev. Cleveland Eden, and Robert Brough explains that “the plaintiffs, all of whom are elderly, claim their mental and emotional well-being was damaged by this book at the library,” specifically because Baby Be-Bop contains the “n” word and derogatory sexual and political epithets that can incite violence and “put one’s life in possible jeopardy, adults and children alike.” The complaint points out that library Director Michael Tyree has “publicly stated that it is not up to the library to tell the community what is appropriate.” Citing “Wisconsin’s sexual morality law,” the plaintiffs also request West Bend City Attorney Mary Schanning to impanel a grand jury to examine whether the book should be declared obscene and making it available a hate crime. —Beverly Goldberg, American Libraries Online Posted on June 3, 2009. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #2 June 8, 2009 great, what other dictatorships couldnt accomplish, a christian group is after now. not long before they ask to burn the library-whitch thats responsible for putting it there in the first place.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,536 #3 June 8, 2009 Been meaning to re-read Farenheit 451 for a while now, quite apart from it's importance as a distopian vision of censorship the prose has a unique lyric beauty which makes it a joy to read. Thanks for reminding me. Anyway... QuoteIronically, four of the trustees were denied reappointment in April by the city council because they did not comply with the Maziarkas’ reconsideration requests and are serving until their successors are appointed. That sounds disturbing. QuoteAccusing the board of submitting to the will of the American Library Association and the American Civil Liberties Union, Ginny Maziarka declared, “We vehemently reject their standards and their principles,” and characterized the debate as “a propaganda battle to maintain access to inappropriate material.” Funny how they don't seem to understand that it's not up to them to decide what is and is not appropriate for everyone else. Quote “the plaintiffs, all of whom are elderly, claim their mental and emotional well-being was damaged by this book at the library,” specifically because Baby Be-Bop contains the “n” word A) Elderly people, in America, shocked to the point of mental damage that the word 'nigger' exists? I'm less than convinced. B) Why the fuck were these elderly people with such incredibly delicate sensibilities reading a young adult novel that they surely knew to be controversial? Gotta love these self appointed censors who make it their duty to read or view every piece of salacious and sexual material they can get their hands on - but only so they can warn others about it, of course...Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NewGuy2005 53 #4 June 8, 2009 Quote Gotta love these self appointed censors who make it their duty to read or view every piece of salacious and sexual material they can get their hands on - but only so they can warn others about it, of course... It's a tough job, but somebody's gotta do it!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #5 June 8, 2009 The wussification of America is perpetuated by the collective paranoia among the liberals and the conservatives. These well-meaning but warped individuals have lost sight of the "Great Commission" given by Jesus to his disciples. Christians are to share the "Gospel of Jesus Christ" that is to say, the salvation from eternal death through God's plan for eternal life. In my opinion, all these other battles that folks desire to fight is nothing more than ego centric self aggrandizement. I believe it is the product of reprobate mental activity and in the long run is not very beneficial. Just my $0.02.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Danger 0 #6 June 8, 2009 I couldn't express this any better. Neil Peart - Witch Hunt The night is black Without a moon. The air is thick and still. The vigilantes gather on The lonely torchlit hill. Features distorted in the flickering light, The faces are twisted and grotesque. Silent and stern in the sweltering night, The mob moves like demons possesed. Quiet in conscience, calm in their right, Confident their ways are best. The righteous rise With burning eyes Of hatred and ill-will. Madmen fed on fear and lies To beat and burn and kill. They say there are strangers who threaten us, are immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. Those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves. Quick to judge, Quick to anger, Slow to understand Ignorance and prejudice And fear walk hand in hand... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #7 June 8, 2009 Do you think they are earnest here, or just masters of publicity? Nothing gets coverage like a demand to burn books. OTOH, I may just be giving them too much credit for rational thinking. A like minded publisher might think about dumping 100k copies of Baby Be-Bop at every post office, bus station and place of gathering. Or perhaps a free copy to every middle school kid who writes 750 words on the 1st Amendment? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #8 June 8, 2009 I didn't read the article - what are they burning? Evolution handbooks? Global warming denial positions? Articles on how welfare is bad for economies? guess it depends which religion it is for determining what speech one actively tries to ban ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skwrl 56 #9 June 8, 2009 The year 391 called, they want their headline back. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria#Decree_of_Theodosius.2C_destruction_by_Theophilus_in_391 Although, in fairness, back then it was a whole library.Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #10 June 8, 2009 QuoteI didn't read the article - what are they burning? Or I guess rather than banning or burning, they could just require that all books be certified as TLDR. Seriously, if you can't even be bothered to read seven paragraphs of quoted material (two of which were highlighted for emphasis), why should we write summaries for you? I'm not even completely certain why you'd post a question like that in a thread like this.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,536 #11 June 8, 2009 QuoteGlobal warming denial positions? Articles on how welfare is bad for economies? guess it depends which religion it is for determining what speech one actively tries to ban Who is actively trying to ban those two?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #12 June 8, 2009 QuoteQuoteGlobal warming denial positions? Articles on how welfare is bad for economies? guess it depends which religion it is for determining what speech one actively tries to ban Who is actively trying to ban those two? Seriously, if you can't even be bothered to research this, why should we write it down for you? I'm not even completely certain why you'd post a question like that in a thread like this. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,536 #13 June 8, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteGlobal warming denial positions? Articles on how welfare is bad for economies? guess it depends which religion it is for determining what speech one actively tries to ban Who is actively trying to ban those two? Seriously, if you can't even be bothered to research this, why should we write it down for you? I'm not even completely certain why you'd post a question like that in a thread like this. Here, amuse yourself with that for a while.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #14 June 8, 2009 So where do you draw the line on what materials should be available to children in public libraries? Should Hustler Magazine be allowed? What about materials from NAMBLA? How about Unzipped Magazine? I'm sure everyone has some idea of content that is inappropriate for children. Just because you don't believe that everything should be available, does not mean that you're an ignorant witch-burning Christian. Different people draw the line at different places. And in a public library, where parents can't necessarily control what their children see, the standard should be set conservatively. If parents want their kids to read the more ribald stuff, like a book about a teen homosexual, they can buy it for him, or check it out for him from an adult section. But just because some parents don't want their children seeing such books freely offered, doesn't mean they deserve all the criticism they're getting here. Would you make the same criticisms of someone who advocates that NAMBLA materials should be banned from public libraries? And if so, what's the difference? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,031 #15 June 8, 2009 >Seriously, if you can't even be bothered to read seven paragraphs >of quoted material (two of which were highlighted for emphasis), why >should we write summaries for you? Well, the quoted material could be offensive - and we can't have that. Someone please summarize it to warn anyone else of offensive language, ideas or concepts that might pollute otherwise pure minds. Ten words or less please. "Gays want to get in your son's pants" - something like that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,031 #16 June 8, 2009 > Just because you don't believe that everything should be available, >does not mean that you're an ignorant witch-burning Christian. Agreed. These are merely ignorant book-burning Christians, which are much less of a problem than ignorant witch-burning Christians. >But just because some parents don't want their children seeing such >books freely offered, doesn't mean they deserve all the criticism they're >getting here. People who want to burn books they find offensive are pretty much always going to get criticism (and rightly so.) Had they merely stated their desire to move the books, and not burn or destroy them, they would not have garnered this level of criticism. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #17 June 8, 2009 Quote People who want to burn books they find offensive are pretty much always going to get criticism (and rightly so.) Had they merely stated their desire to move the books, and not burn or destroy them, they would not have garnered this level of criticism. Which is why I suspect the phrasing was intentional. John, the monitoring of children at the library is no different than the monitoring of them on the internet. They have parents. I think it's easy to determine that a library doesn't need to carry obscene (Hustler) or political propaganda (NAMBLA) materials. But there will still be periodicals and books covering material of an adult nature. I certainly went looking for some of it in my teens. But the mission of the library is not to protect the children, and it's hardly possible to meet the silly demands of all the nuts out there. When you consider that the Catcher in the Rye has long been thrown out as inappropriate, there's no chance of pleasing these people. A significant number of books proposed for banning are on the reading lists for honors English in our high schools. If we're serious about education, that means reading books that have people doing bad things, not just good ones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #18 June 9, 2009 QuoteThe monitoring of children at the library is no different than the monitoring of them on the internet. They have parents. It's not that easy. I've been involved in discussions on running local public libraries. The issue is that the library needs to be run in a manner that makes it welcoming to all it's intended patrons (the local people). If you allow it to become a place of totally open expression, you have the loud political protestor types (the book burners, in this example) scaring away the average citizen, thereby rendering the library useless for it's intended purpose. The library has a mission. To the extent that allowing different materials aids in that mission, it ought to be encouraged. To the extent that it impedes that mission, it should not be allowed. The library is not the place for some wacky book burning protest, because that impedes the mission of the library. Nor is it the place to allow totally unfettered access to all materials (pornography, for example) because that also impedes it mission (parents who don't want their children having access will simply not patronize the library, thereby defeating it's purpose).-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #19 June 9, 2009 Tom, I thought I addressed much of that with the next paragraph. The library has adult, but not obscene materials. The distinction is in having some artistic or intellectual value. While Hustler does have an ACLU type bent to its columns, I don't think many are going to argue that it has value in the intellectual sense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #20 June 9, 2009 Oh, you did. I was mostly responding to JR's post, but I responded to yours because it had that bit that I could work off of. The point is that in the "trenches" of local library management (in a library that my child actually spent a lot of time at), I participated in making a great number of "middle of the road" decisions that actually make a lot of sense on the local level.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #21 June 9, 2009 Quote So where do you draw the line on what materials should be available to children in public libraries? The irony there is that those people who have problems with the word "nigger" and "derogatory sexual and political epithets" apparently have no such problems with the Bible which describes premarital insect sex, murder, slavery and hatred (and which I'd say is the most hateful book I've ever read). Quote I'm sure everyone has some idea of content that is inappropriate for children. Just because you don't believe that everything should be available, does not mean that you're an ignorant witch-burning Christian. The problem is that if we follow everyone's idea of content that is inappropriate for children, our libraries will be empty.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #22 June 9, 2009 QuoteThe problem is that if we follow everyone's idea of content that is inappropriate for children, our libraries will be empty. Community standards. Local people on the library board make the decisions that seem most appropriate for the majority of their community. Believe it or not it works in 99% of cases (like this one, where the library's board seems to have made reasonable decisions). That doesn't mean that this (or that material) ought to be included on a blanket basis across the nation--each community needs to be allowed to make their own determination.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #23 June 9, 2009 Quote . . . --each community needs to be allowed to make their own determination. So if a person happens to be unfortunate enough to be born into the "wrong" community, they don't have access to book that the "local board" deems appropriate? That's bullshit. I seriously doubt most gun owners would put up with "local boards" deciding what guns are or are not appropriate for what local community with widely varying standards from one community to the next. I'm nearly certain I see a thread or two from JR & Company on a regular basis about such things.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #24 June 9, 2009 Quote That's bullshit. I seriously doubt most gun owners would put up with "local boards" deciding what guns are or are not appropriate for what local community with widely varying standards from one community to the next. I'm nearly certain I see a thread or two from JR & Company on a regular basis about such things. guns rights are part of the Constitution. Didn't see the clause about free access to anything printed in the library. Since these tend to be publicly funded at the local level, it's not crazy to make some use of local standards. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #25 June 9, 2009 Quoteguns rights are part of the Constitution. Didn't see the clause about free access to anything printed in the library. Knowledge is power. Limiting access to knowledge is limiting a person's ability to improve themselves. Just reading a book never killed anyone.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
