Obama: It's OK to borrow to pay for health care

[Lefty 0]

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Insurance companies are not actually about delivering health care - they are about making money. A government run plan would not be about making money - wit would be about buying votes.

Fixed. Politicians make political decisions. That's what this whole thing is about.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[tkhayes 348]

if that were the case then we would never have used the military to invade Iraq while 'trying to protect the American people from terrorism'

If one wing of the government (the military) is so concerned for our safety, then how is it so hard to believe that another wing of our government would actually care about health care?

millions of Americans disagree with you. And to say that a nationalized health care system would be only about buying votes is simply naive and oversimplification.

Lots of different governments have come and gone since the signing of the bill of rights and the New Deal. Few say that these were bad ideas. Since the governments have changed so many times, it was obviously not about 'buying votes'

[Lefty 0]

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If some idiot goes out and jumps out of an airplane and gets hurt - do they get health care?

That has nothing to do with my question. My question was, does it count as "health care"? Is wine bottle ass removal the type of thing you feel is in the spirit of this glorious crusade?

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At least a nationalized system does not really care.

Just the type of health care system I want...one that doesn't care.

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Maybe they would have mental health services to figure out why that guy stuck wine bottle up his ass in the first place.

Sure, send him to that fancy place. Spend more of my money to find out that maybe he was just an idiot.

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Instead of perhaps sending him to prison as a felon, where he will get lots of other things stuck up his ass on the taxpayers dime......

Not sure where that one came from.

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does the guy with the wine bottle up his ass get social security when he turns 65?

Only until I become president. Then the program gets ended.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[Ron 10]

your comment about per capita spending in Canada is interesting, but it does not really tell the whole story. According to the CIA world factbook, the US has more people below poverty level than Canada has total.

So it is very possible that a solution that you think works on a much smaler scale will not work on a much larger scale.

In addition, last I remember the socialized oil in Canada helps pay for the healthcare costs. Unless you are planning to socialize the oil industry here.... Then you don't have the income base that Canada has either.

As for your issue of lots of paperwork.... Ever file taxes here in the US? Ever do anything that involved the US govt that did not involve tons of paperwork?

You want free, quality, health care with no paperwork? Knowing what you know of the US govt, you should know it is not posssible.

Looking at socialized medicine in other countries you should be able to see the failures. Yet it seems you have some idea that THIS time it will be better.... Looking at the grand failures of almost every govt program... You should see that it is not a reasonable position.

In addition, I don't see it as unreasonable for people to oppose a massive
govt program that will remove their ability to have control of their health.

If you think the govt has managed to screw up the economy.... Why would you give them control of your HEALTH?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Lefty 0]

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if that were the case then we would never have used the military to invade Iraq while 'trying to protect the American people from terrorism'

If one wing of the government (the military) is so concerned for our safety, then how is it so hard to believe that another wing of our government would actually care about health care?

millions of Americans disagree with you. And to say that a nationalized health care system would be only about buying votes is simply naive and oversimplification.

Lots of different governments have come and gone since the signing of the bill of rights and the New Deal. Few say that these were bad ideas. Since the governments have changed so many times, it was obviously not about 'buying votes'

Of course no politician is going to come out and say they are only making such-and-such decision to get reelected. Isn't it funny how all the presidential pardons come when they're leaving office? At that point they don't care.

A nationalized health care system would be the poster child of vote-buying schemes. After all, who do you think is going to pay for this? The small number of rich people who get demonized by the very people squeezing them for money? Or, the huge number of people leeching off the system? It's one vote per person, so which group would a politician give "free" stuff to? These are career politicians we're talking about...really the only kind that exist nowadays.

You think insurance companies have an agenda to make money while cheating you somehow (and that might be true in your experience). However, these politicians have a business and a trade that must be seen to...staying in office.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[Bolas 5]

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Taking care of one's self and wanting to keep it that way makes me a right-wing nut job.

And that is a valid ideology. I have no disagreements with it at all. The problem is that it does not work for everyone (48 million people right now). If we all had the ability to take care of ones self and family, then OBVIOUSLY, there would be no issue with Health care.

But the fact is that people do not.

I have a job, I make a decent wage. I can BARELY afford health insurance.

It is not good enough to say "Get off your ass and go get a job". right now, hundreds of thousands are losing their jobs through no fault of their own - they are not lazy, they are not useless nor incompetent. They are simply in an unfortunate situation. And that affects all of society and eventually will affect you and me,

I believe that health care (at some level) is a fundamental human right. And we will see it happen in this country in my lifetime, whether you agree with me or not.

Kudos to the insurance companies for creating health insurance. They really created their own market and such a demand for it, people feel it should now be government mandated. Granted having to see a doctor just to see another and paying $15 per pill for tylenol in the hospital is nuts, but is paying the gov't to pay these companies to provide the above really the answer?

Back when I was a kid, we didn't have health insurance. You got sick, you went to the doctor and you paid via a check or cash. If you had something major and you had to go to the Emergency Room, you dipped into your "rainy day" money. Maybe you had insurance that partially covered big injuries.

Then the insurance companies started stepping in. Suddenly that basic doctor visit now cost people without insurance much more because they negotiated lower rates. So people started going to the ER (purposely abbreviated) because they couldn't afford the doctors. Well since the ER couldn't not treat them, they had to raise their prices across the board. More people then started getting insurance. Doctors got tired of getting squeezed so they became specialists and the whole PCP thing started.

Also have you noticed doctor don't cure things anymore, they only treat them?

Medicine is a business, a very big and very profitable one. People are deluding themselves if they think gov't healthcare for all will make it any less of one.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[bodypilot90 0]

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nothing wrong with leaving many services privatized as well. If you can afford the MRI, go to the clinic and pay for it. I have in the past, because I was denied by the large corporation that supposedly provides me with HEALTH COVERAGE, but does everything they can to NOT pay for it every time I need something.

If the gov't can't run a cat house and run a profit, how on earth do you think they can run health care? EDIT to add.....amtrack

[lawrocket 3]

Canada and other socialized health care systems spend less per capita on health care than the US. True. They also offer less.

People who drive a Lexus spend more per capita on personal transportation than those who ride the bus or subway. Therefore, the subway is better than a Lexus.

But then, I think, "the train from Fresno to Hanford doesn't leave until 1015. I won't be at work till around 1100. Therefore, I need a personal vehicle. I could get a cheaper car. But I need something safe and comfortable so that I can dictate and not be ruined by weather extremes."

So my Volvo XC-90 is the best. Thus, I think everybody should have one.

What's best for me isn't best for everyone. Just because it costs less doesn't make it "better.". Just because it costs more doesn't make it "better."

However, nobody can provide high quality and inexpensive healthcare available on demand. In a sense, healthcare in the US is rationed by what the individual can afford. That is good for some, not for others. You propose a system that would ration healthcare to all - what I call a system of equal misery.

I spend a lot on healthcare. More than anything it has meant that I cannot afford to skydive or golf, or do other things like that. I suspect that I will spend the same amount on government health care and get much less.

This is not something that is better for me. It doesn't take a right-wing nut to realize that I will lose plenty.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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In addition, last I remember the socialized oil in Canada helps pay for the healthcare costs. Unless you are planning to socialize the oil industry here.... Then you don't have the income base that Canada has either.

How do you figure that? Don't think you really understand the Canadian Health Care system, or who pays for it, or who runs it for that matter.

[billvon 3,008]

> Is wine bottle ass removal the type of thing you feel is in the spirit of this glorious
> crusade?

If it's emergency care - whether for the above-mentioned wine bottle or a broken pelvis because you were dumb enough to jump out of an airplane - yes. (And the wine bottle would be around 100x cheaper to deal with.)

>Just the type of health care system I want...one that doesn't care.

Why wouldn't you use your own health care? Why would you want the government to make those decisions for you?

[jcd11235 0]

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You think Social Security is being run well?

Better than some private insurance companies. What other insurance policies have averaged ~7 percent annual return for consumers over the life of the policy? Social Security has.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Lefty 0]

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> Is wine bottle ass removal the type of thing you feel is in the spirit of this glorious
> crusade?

If it's emergency care - whether for the above-mentioned wine bottle or a broken pelvis because you were dumb enough to jump out of an airplane - yes. (And the wine bottle would be around 100x cheaper to deal with.)

See, that's a troubling aspect. This program takes a big deterrent out of risky/stupid activities. Now, instead of "Man, maybe I shouldn't jump out of this plane because my deductible is pretty big and I don't have the money to pay for a serious injury and I can't miss work, etc" it's "Screw it. I'm covered. Wheeee! *break*". Seriously, tell me that wouldn't happen. I'd get to pay for all the idiots to do their idiotic things.

>Just the type of health care system I want...one that doesn't care.

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Why wouldn't you use your own health care? Why would you want the government to make those decisions for you?

Come on, now. Let's say the program goes live. You end up in the emergency room with, to use your example, a broken pelvis and you can choose between your own insurance with a deductible or insurance you've already paid for anyway with your taxes. Which are you going to pick? I'd pick the one I already paid for and leave the private insurance for procedures with long waiting lists.

As I mentioned, six months and counting for a dental screening by the VA...a fine example of socialized medicine.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[TomAiello 26]

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Is social security working 'perfectly' no. of course not. Is it working? Yes.

Do you really believe that Social Security is "working"?

If it were working, it would be earning a positive return on the largest investment fund ever created in human history. Or at least it would still have some of it's initial capital left.

Social Security makes Bernie Madoff look like a kid stealing candy from a grocery store.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

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If one wing of the government (the military) is so concerned for our safety, then how is it so hard to believe that another wing of our government would actually care about health care?

I don't believe that either of them is. I'm against both. Why not ask yourself the question in reverse?

Would you trust the entity that's poured billions into invading other countries on scant evidence with something as important as your health care?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[billvon 3,008]

>This program takes a big deterrent out of risky/stupid activities.

Are you honestly saying that this program would make you more likely to skydive? 99% of skydivers don't consider healthcare when deciding to do something as optional (and as foolish) as skydiving. Do you have evidence that that's not the case?

>Now, instead of "Man, maybe I shouldn't jump out of this plane because
>my deductible is pretty big and I don't have the money to pay for a serious
>injury and I can't miss work, etc"

No one's proposing that your work time be covered by this program.

And again, I don't know many skydivers who think "gee, I can't afford to pay for surgery, so I won't hook turn!" (or get that smaller canopy, or skydive at all.) At best they think about that a few seconds before impact.

>You end up in the emergency room with, to use your example, a broken pelvis
>and you can choose between your own insurance with a deductible or insurance
>you've already paid for anyway with your taxes.

And you get emergency care covered - just like you do now, whether or not you can pay for it. Then the doctor comes and tells you "your insurance will cover the surgery needed to fix your pelvis, or we can put you in traction for six months, the outcome will be iffy - but it will be free." What are you going to choose?

>As I mentioned, six months and counting for a dental screening by the VA...a
>fine example of socialized medicine.

So get out your wallet and go to a dentist, already. No program can protect you against your own bad decisions.

[jcd11235 0]

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If it were working, it would be earning a positive return on the largest investment fund ever created in human history.

As in, say, ~7% annual return? Oh wait, it does.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[TomAiello 26]

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If it were working, it would be earning a positive return on the largest investment fund ever created in human history.

As in, say, ~7% annual return? Oh wait, it does.

What was Bernie Madoff's "return" ?

If you are earning a return, then your principal is still intact, and you've added to it. Bernie Madoff told people they were earning a "return" but it turned out that the principal was all gone. Social Security works exactly the same way.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[jcd11235 0]

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If it were working, it would be earning a positive return on the largest investment fund ever created in human history.

As in, say, ~7% annual return? Oh wait, it does.

What was Bernie Madoff's "return" ?

If you are earning a return, then your principal is still intact, and you've added to it. Bernie Madoff told people they were earning a "return" but it turned out that the principal was all gone. Social Security works exactly the same way.

We haven't begun paying SS benefits with the trust fund. The principle is growing.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Bolas 5]

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Is social security working 'perfectly' no. of course not. Is it working? Yes.

Do you really believe that Social Security is "working"?

If it were working, it would be earning a positive return on the largest investment fund ever created in human history. Or at least it would still have some of it's initial capital left.

Social Security makes Bernie Madoff look like a kid stealing candy from a grocery store.

The fact it's still at this point somewhat solvent considering what it's original design parameters were is astonishing.

Ironically the illegal alien worker problem causing so many issues with other programs is actually helping social security.

You can take 15-20 deductions on your W-2 and not have any taxes withheld by changing SS #'s numbers every few years but you can't withhold the social security portion. You also can't collect off multiple phony SS #'s.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[penniless 0]

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nothing wrong with leaving many services privatized as well. If you can afford the MRI, go to the clinic and pay for it. I have in the past, because I was denied by the large corporation that supposedly provides me with HEALTH COVERAGE, but does everything they can to NOT pay for it every time I need something.

If the gov't can't run a cat house and run a profit, how on earth do you think they can run health care? EDIT to add.....amtrack

Private enterprise ran GM, Chrysler, AIG, Indymac, Lehman Bros (to name but a few success stories of the recent past). The government runs the military. Your point?

[warpedskydiver 0]

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> Is wine bottle ass removal the type of thing you feel is in the spirit of this glorious
> crusade?

If it's emergency care - whether for the above-mentioned wine bottle or a broken pelvis because you were dumb enough to jump out of an airplane - yes. (And the wine bottle would be around 100x cheaper to deal with.)

>Just the type of health care system I want...one that doesn't care.

Why wouldn't you use your own health care? Why would you want the government to make those decisions for you?

I bet it would be a bottle of Merlot!

[bodypilot90 0]

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If the gov't can't run a cat house and run a profit, how on earth do you think they can run health care? EDIT to add.....amtrack

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Private enterprise ran GM, Chrysler, AIG, Indymac, Lehman Bros (to name but a few success stories of the recent past). The government runs the military. Your point?

you believe they can run healthcare any better, cheaper or as fast. They can't. My bet is it will be as bad as trying to get SSD a 2 year wait. piles of paperwork. Long lines, poor care, delays in new drugs is coming with the obama koolaid plan

[billvon 3,008]

> My bet is it will be as bad as trying to get SSD a 2 year wait.

In which case, you could use your own doctor and pay as much as you like.

[kelpdiver 2]

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If it were working, it would be earning a positive return on the largest investment fund ever created in human history.

As in, say, ~7% annual return? Oh wait, it does.

What was Bernie Madoff's "return" ?

If you are earning a return, then your principal is still intact, and you've added to it. Bernie Madoff told people they were earning a "return" but it turned out that the principal was all gone. Social Security works exactly the same way.

We haven't begun paying SS benefits with the trust fund. The principle is growing.

As you know well, the trust fund is IOUs only. The surplus was used to fund the Iraqi war and other deficit spending. And that trust exists only because we keep increasing the amount put in each year at a rate far higher than inflation. But like Madoff, at some point the debt has to be paid.

You'll need to qualify that 7% because it's horseshit, or more politely, proof that it's a pyramid scheme. Treasuries rarely pay 7% and that's what the 'trust fund' is comprised off.

I know it's BS because I see the projections for how much I can expect to collect from SS (disregarding the near certainty that they won't be able to pay full benefits). The values aren't remotely close to what I should see for saving 12.4% of my earnings for life.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Good grief...after witnessing how the government has handled Stimulus I, II, the car companies, the banks, and AIG...you want them to decide for your health care?

If the previous government had been competent, this government wouldn't have had to handle any of those things.

Obama's government didn't create the longest recession since the 1930s.

And the biggest recession since the 1930s is hardly the time to be trying this expensive experiment.

I think he's risking the power surplus the Democrats have with this move. Clinton lost both houses for much less than this, and he had 57 Senators in 1993.

The incredible size of the deficit now requires direct action as quickly as the economy allows. It isn't really cost neutral or 'pay as you go' if the added cost of this proposal is matched by cuts we need to do anyway.

The case example we should be looking at is not Social Security, which we know is a flawed concept, but rather Medicare, an even bigger ticking pyramid with tens of trillions in projected deficits. (Bush did contribute to this with his drug plan). It doesn't work well now, nor does the VA.

I think I'd be much more reassured if our veterans weren't being put through hell after getting injured in an even bigger hell.