Obama: It's OK to borrow to pay for health care

[TomAiello 26]

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EVERYONE in Canada gets decent healthcare. NO ONE in Canada is willing to give that up and go to a private system.

That's demonstrably untrue.

If healthcare there is decent, people wouldn't go to the USA for care.

Those who travel to the USA for care have given up their "decent" Canadian care and opted for a private system in the USA.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[tkhayes 348]

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That's demonstrably untrue.

then demonstrate it, please.

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If healthcare there is decent, people wouldn't go to the USA for care.

and that is an overstatement. the super rich - when they want to fly to Europe- charter a private jet and go when they want to, rather than wait for first class on a regular flight. That does not mean that the airline transportation system is flawed in any way. It just means they have the money to do it on their own terms.

My mother got 2 knee replacements in the past year. She had to wait 6-8 months to get it done. For the first one, she actually got moved UP the list when some scheduling changes happened at the hospital.

They called her and said "Hey can you do this on this coming Monday?" And she could and they did.

Does that sound like 'poor healthcare' to you? If she was a millionaire, yes, she could have taken the choice and flew to NY and paid $100K to get it done. She still got 'decent' healthcare. If she has a heart attack someday - she will get GREAT healthcare in Canada.

Again, the Canadian system has issues and improvements could be made. The US system has far more issues and needs to be fixed, first and foremost by offering some level of universal healthcare to all.

[TomAiello 26]

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That's demonstrably untrue.

then demonstrate it, please.

I suspect you are being intentionally obtuse, however:

You stated that "NO ONE in Canada is willing to give that up and go to a private system." (emphasis yours).

You also stated that "Those that can afford it already go to the USA, write a check and pay for it."



Your statement that some in Canada (those who can afford it) opt to go to a private system (in the USA) for care, demonstrates that your other statement (that NO ONE (emphasis yours) would trade) is untrue.

Some Canadians (those with the ability to do so, according to you), have chosen to give up their Canadian care by opting to travel for care in a private system.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Gawain 0]

http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html

A long essay, and I only glossed over it...just thought I'd throw it into the fire...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[TomAiello 26]

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http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html

A long essay, and I only glossed over it...just thought I'd throw it into the fire...

I haven't read the article, but I'm familiar with the author. It's especially telling that he's a Canadian doctor.

I strongly recommend his book.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

Really good article.

Here's an excerpt that speaks directly to the discussion about Canadian style care:

Quote

Canadian doctors, long silent on the health-care system’s problems, are starting to speak up. Last August, they voted Brian Day president of their national association. A former socialist who counts Fidel Castro as a personal acquaintance, Day has nevertheless become perhaps the most vocal critic of Canadian public health care, having opened his own private surgery center as a remedy for long waiting lists and then challenged the government to shut him down. “This is a country in which dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week,” he fumed to the New York Times, “and in which humans can wait two to three years.”

Dogs get better health care than humans? Sign me up!

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Ron 10]

Please don't try to play an emotional card with me.....

Yes, I knew Jim... I also knew that he never bothered to tell anyone he was sick till he was in the hospital.

You admit Canada has a problem and people come to the US for treatment.... Yet you want the US to be like Canada.

Yes citizens of Canada had to sue the govt to be allowed to pay for health care because they felt the level of care they were getting was not good enough.

Care to discuss some data and not just appeals to emotion? Care to discuss how Canada had to be sued, or how the other countries I listed are moving from the utopia you claim?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tkhayes 348]

you are absolutely right - only blunt objective logic should be allowed into the argument

How dare I care about my friends when it comes to health care......

Data: 62% of all bankruptcies in the USA are related to medical bills
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=bankruptcy+in+the+usa+due+to+medical&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

it was 50% in 2005 and now is over 60%.

you asked for data, you got it.

Got some data on how many people in Canada want to scrap the entire system and go to a completely private system? It is pretty small.

How many Canadians want more access to MORE privatized healthcare? A majority I am sure, and that will happen too. As I already pointed out earlier, several times, but you continue to ignore - is that the Cdn system does have issues and may as well have more services privatized AS AN OPTION. Not as a 'removal' of the current system.

But they will never completely scrap the universal healthcare available to all.

Just like here in the USA, scrapping the private system and going completely to a government run system will probably not work either, but a mix of both can and probably will work. So when you need your $200,000 heart transplant - you can just write that check and feel good about it.

Obviously we do not do heart transplants in Canada - since the system is so flawed......http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=heart+transplants+in+CANADA&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

[billvon 3,008]

>You admit Canada has a problem and people come to the US for
>treatment.... Yet you want the US to be like Canada.

And people in the US go to Sweden for treatment, a place with socialized medicine - and yet you don't want anything to change?

The US could have the world's best healthcare system and someone will hate it and go to Sweden to get their shoulder fixed - and have a much better experience. The US could have the world's worst healthcare system and someone from Mexico would come here for medical care - and think they got a much better deal. Which is why such anecdotal stories aren't worth that much.

[Gawain 0]

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>You admit Canada has a problem and people come to the US for
>treatment.... Yet you want the US to be like Canada.

And people in the US go to Sweden for treatment, a place with socialized medicine - and yet you don't want anything to change?

The US could have the world's best healthcare system and someone will hate it and go to Sweden to get their shoulder fixed - and have a much better experience. The US could have the world's worst healthcare system and someone from Mexico would come here for medical care - and think they got a much better deal. Which is why such anecdotal stories aren't worth that much.

The difference is that people are coming to the US for care they can not or will not be provided with in their own country under the current system. There isn't some magical treatment in Sweden that isn't available here.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Bolas 5]

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In Canada, Phantom would have seen a specialist, he would have seen a regular doctor. He would have received treatment because his condition was worsening and was chronic.

Sorry about your friend. What did he have? Some things aren't treatable or the treatment is worse than the symptoms.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[penniless 0]

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You admit Canada has a problem and people come to the US for treatment.... Yet you want the US to be like Canada.

Do you admit the USA has a problem, or do you consider it to be Utopia?

[penniless 0]

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There isn't some magical treatment in Sweden that isn't available here.

Here in the USA, availability is very dependent on how much money you have.

[TomAiello 26]

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Here in the USA, availability is very dependent on how much money you have.

Availability of what, exactly? Basic treatment? State of the art care?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[penniless 0]

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Here in the USA, availability is very dependent on how much money you have.

Availability of what, exactly? Basic treatment? State of the art care?

The context is in the thread.

[billvon 3,008]

>There isn't some magical treatment in Sweden that isn't available here.

I know several skydivers who feel that there is. They go there for shoulder surgery because they feel it is superior to what's available here - just as people come here for care they feel is unavailable in their country. Which is the danger of using such anecdotes to base policy on.

Heck, the World Team goes to Thailand for its world records because they feel the support system there is better. But the statement "therefore USPA should copy what Thailand does because they are clearly superior in terms of skydiving" does not follow.

[lawrocket 3]

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>You admit Canada has a problem and people come to the US for
>treatment.... Yet you want the US to be like Canada.

And people in the US go to Sweden for treatment, a place with socialized medicine - and yet you don't want anything to change?

The US could have the world's best healthcare system and someone will hate it and go to Sweden to get their shoulder fixed - and have a much better experience. The US could have the world's worst healthcare system and someone from Mexico would come here for medical care - and think they got a much better deal. Which is why such anecdotal stories aren't worth that much.

A classic example of how there is no such thing as "best for everybody."

Any argument about systems contain anecdotes of dissatisfaction because nothing gives people everything they want.

I can argue against any system as being insufficient in a number of ways to a number of people. Democracy is insufficient because majority rule fails to protect minorities. Representative governments have problems.

Health care systems have problems, too. All of them.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,008]

>A classic example of how there is no such thing as "best for everybody."

Definitely. Any solution will be, at best, a compromise.

[Ron 10]

TK.
You should know that you can't have a rational discussion using only emotion....

So far, you have brought ONE valid concern while ignoring everything that was brought up.

You should know that you think with your head and feel with your heart.... You seem to want to feel with your head and think with your heart. Worse, you seem to want to demonize anyone that dare disagrees with you.

You have a habit of doing this, but you should know that it is not rational.

You have brought ONE piece of data.... Yet it is even incomplete since it does not include one bit of data about the cost of putting a single payer system in place in the US.

AND you dismiss every bit of data that shows your 'perfect world' is far from it.

Don't blame me for your inability to keep your emotions out of a discussion.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

Of course I will admit there is a problem. I just don't agree with the solution being to change the very foundation of this country to socialism.

That belief does not make me 'evil' or 'heartless' unlike how some wish to claim. The cost vs benefit and the true cost of any program needs to be considered, not just some feel good bumper sticker sayings.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tkhayes 348]

Nice try Ron - below are all my posts, and I count 28 points that I made that I would call data. not 'One'.

I highlighted the 'data' and 'valid concern' areas with *DATA* so it would be easier for you to read......

what of all the questions I asked you - where is your 'data'

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*DATA* not at al. Borrowing to start up a new health care system is what would need to happen. People in the end would pay for it, instead of payments to private health insurance companies, the net would be made in tax payments.

*DATA* his argument is that it can be done for everyone at a lower price than it is today. since all government costs are eventually borne by the taxpayer, the cost to the taxpayer eventually will go down. Including you.

you are just paying a different 'insurance company' for a different 'insurance policy'

nothing nuts about it. dozens of other 'civilized countries are already doing it, and we are the ones with the problem.

the problems will be:
1. getting approval in the USA for such a plan when there are so many right wing nut-jobs that think this country SHOULD be every man for himself.....
how to actually transition, effectively putting insurance companies out of business.

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dropzones are different. I am not for the government running business. I am for the government running HEALTH CARE, as well as education, the military, social services, and a few other things.

So no, I am not for the government running drop zones, car companies, gun manufacturing, widgets or whatever else private business should be involved in.

SO we disagree on where the line is drawn on what is a right and what is a privilege or 'business'
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nothing wrong with leaving many services privatized as well. If you can afford the MRI, go to the clinic and pay for it. I have in the past, because I was denied by the large corporation that supposedly provides me with HEALTH COVERAGE, but does everything they can to NOT pay for it every time I need something.
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*DATA* And that is a valid ideology. I have no disagreements with it at all. The problem is that it does not work for everyone (48 million people right now). If we all had the ability to take care of ones self and family, then OBVIOUSLY, there would be no issue with Health care.

But the fact is that people do not.

I have a job, I make a decent wage. I can BARELY afford health insurance.

*DATA* It is not good enough to say "Get off your ass and go get a job". right now, hundreds of thousands are losing their jobs through no fault of their own - they are not lazy, they are not useless nor incompetent. They are simply in an unfortunate situation. And that affects all of society and eventually will affect you and me,

I believe that health care (at some level) is a fundamental human right. And we will see it happen in this country in my lifetime, whether you agree with me or not.
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*DATA* Is social security working 'perfectly' no. of course not. Is it working? Yes. Is the military working perfectly? absolutely not. Is it working? yes it is.

I would take cancer treatment in Canada as it would not cost me anything at all. Here in the USA, it might very well bankrupt me, even though I have insurance. I would have deductibles, and co-pays and an eventual 'cap' on the amount I would have to spend on my treatment.

While I am sick, I would probably not work, so I would have no money to pay for the deductibles and other fees not covered. I would be deluged in paperwork by the insurance company, mostly denials to the claims that i am making and I would probably be too sick to manage all that properly, causing me not only damage to my credit report for unpaid bills, but costing me lots of money because i do not understand everything that the insurance company is sending me.

When I broke my neck in 2001, it only took one month to build a paper file more than 2 inches thick with denials, letters and insurance gibberish that all had to be handled. the overhead was immense. My credit report was trashed and up to 3 years ago, I was still finding things that fell through the cracks that I had to end up paying for.

I cannot afford a 'manager' to handle all that - most people cannot. Most people cannot afford the type of private insurance that would allow you to get ANY TREATMENT AT ANY COST with NO PAPERWORK to worry about.

Insurance companies are not actually about delivering health care - they are about making money. A government run plan would not be about making money - wit would be about delivering health care.
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try not to twist what I said - the original question was about WAITING 6 months for an MRI, not being DENIED for one.

So yes, if the INSURANCE COMPANY denies the MRI, (happened to me), *OR* the government makes you WAIT 6 months to get one (the current case in Canada), then the option to go pay for it yourself should be allowed.

*DATA* This is one of the problems with the Canadian system. The government does not allow private companies to do that sort of thing, but I also think that will change in Canada as well, people are willing to pay for Xrays, bloodwork, MRI's etc. - at least some of them, but under the current system, they cannot and do not have that option.

THe Canadian system is far from perfect - but it is better than the system that we have here.

*DATA* Trillions in National Debt? How so? Canada spends less per capita on health care than the USA. So do all the other 'civilized nationalized health providing countries' out there.

*DATA* You cannot accumulate more debt by spending less money than you were before. Not sure where you got your math degree - but it seems pretty freaking simple to me.
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If some idiot goes out and jumps out of an airplane and gets hurt - do they get health care?

*DATA* Your insurance company is already ON A DAILY BASIS, trying to figure out ways to not pay for the insurance that you need or thought you had been paying for.

At least a nationalized system does not really care. Maybe they would have mental health services to figure out why that guy stuck wine bottle up his ass in the first place.

Instead of perhaps sending him to prison as a felon, where he will get lots of other things stuck up his ass on the taxpayers dime......

does the guy with the wine bottle up his ass get social security when he turns 65?
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if that were the case then we would never have used the military to invade Iraq while 'trying to protect the American people from terrorism'

*DATA* If one wing of the government (the military) is so concerned for our safety, then how is it so hard to believe that another wing of our government would actually care about health care?

millions of Americans disagree with you. And to say that a nationalized health care system would be only about buying votes is simply naive and oversimplification.

Lots of different governments have come and gone since the signing of the bill of rights and the New Deal. Few say that these were bad ideas. Since the governments have changed so many times, it was obviously not about 'buying votes'
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*DATA* It is not an 'experiment' there are dozens of working models around the world to go by.
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I never said anything was 'perfect' in Canada, the Uk or anywhere else.

I am advocating that the status quo is broken. I am not advocating the universal healthcare will be 'perfect' either. I am advocating that it needs to change.

You, I do believe, are advocating NO CHANGE.

unacceptable. A fairly well working universal healthcare system is better than the current US private system.

*DATA* read your homework. the system in Canada is not too expensive, - nor is it anywhere else where universal healthcare exists. And it is not 'fucked up'. It has issues.

sour grapes all you want, my last paragraph stands. It will happen. be part of it if you want, or get run over by it.
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wow, someone SUED someone over health care? If that was a reason to shut down the system in Canada, then..........?

besides all that, in earlier posts, I already acknowledged that a mixed system of private and public care would probably work - and that many services in Canada probably SHOULD be privatized. Finland has a system like that.

*DATA* We already have a 'dual system' in Canada. Those that can afford it already go to the USA, write a check and pay for it. Kind of like here in the USA. Those that can afford it - get it. Those that can't, don't (quite often)

*DATA* You remember Phantom - he died. He had chronic issues and with no health insurance, he did not get the treatment he needed. He DIED - in the USA, because he had no insurance and therefore no specialist was ever going to see him. All he could get was ER treatment, which was no good for his condition.
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You are forgetting the most basic premise -

EVERYONE in Canada gets decent healthcare. NO ONE in Canada is willing to give that up and go to a private system.

*DATA* A lot of people complain about health care in Canada. A lot of people complain about health care in the USA.

*DATA* People die in Canada waiting for treatment. People die in the USA waiting for treatment.

*DATA* Canada treats cancer and has a good survivor rate. The USA treats cancer and has a good survivor rate.

*DATA* Canada spends LESS on healthcare than in the USA. You and I are already paying for those that do not have insurance through higher premiums. If everyone paid through income taxes, then most of us would pay LESS than we are paying now.

*DATA* No one in Canada is ever bankrupted because they could not afford to pay their medical bills.

*DATA* that does not happen in the USA. I have already stated my case in previous posts, you should read them so I do not have to repeat myself.

A program that provides DECENT healthcare for all is better than a program that provides NO healthcare for many, or a system that causes you to lose your life's savings just because you fell down the stairs. Or got hit by a car, or just plain got sick.

*DATA* Yes, ER room care in the USA is available for everyone - that care only helps SOME of those people that go there. It provides little help to those with chronic conditions. (Phantom only got symptomatic treatment and got sent home)

*DATA* In Canada, Phantom would have seen a specialist, he would have seen a regular doctor. He would have received treatment because his condition was worsening and was chronic.

And yes, the guy who was not 'chronic' might have had to wait behind him.

It cracks me up how when I post a list of reasons supporting it, that Ron and you and Neal all take ONE LINE, one SNIPPET, then dismiss the validity of an ENTIRE MEDICAL SYSTEM based on that one snippet.

narrow minded thinking.
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*DATA* and that is an overstatement. the super rich - when they want to fly to Europe- charter a private jet and go when they want to, rather than wait for first class on a regular flight. That does not mean that the airline transportation system is flawed in any way. It just means they have the money to do it on their own terms.

*DATA* My mother got 2 knee replacements in the past year. She had to wait 6-8 months to get it done. For the first one, she actually got moved UP the list when some scheduling changes happened at the hospital.

They called her and said "Hey can you do this on this coming Monday?" And she could and they did.

Does that sound like 'poor healthcare' to you? If she was a millionaire, yes, she could have taken the choice and flew to NY and paid $100K to get it done. She still got 'decent' healthcare. If she has a heart attack someday - she will get GREAT healthcare in Canada.

Again, the Canadian system has issues and improvements could be made. The US system has far more issues and needs to be fixed, first and foremost by offering some level of universal healthcare to all.
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you are absolutely right - only blunt objective logic should be allowed into the argument

How dare I care about my friends when it comes to health care......

*DATA* Data: 62% of all bankruptcies in the USA are related to medical bills
http://www.google.com/...e=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

*DATA* it was 50% in 2005 and now is over 60%.

you asked for data, you got it.

Got some data on how many people in Canada want to scrap the entire system and go to a completely private system? It is pretty small.

*DATA* How many Canadians want more access to MORE privatized healthcare? A majority I am sure, and that will happen too. As I already pointed out earlier, several times, but you continue to ignore - is that the Cdn system does have issues and may as well have more services privatized AS AN OPTION. Not as a 'removal' of the current system.

But they will never completely scrap the universal healthcare available to all.

Just like here in the USA, scrapping the private system and going completely to a government run system will probably not work either, but a mix of both can and probably will work. So when you need your $200,000 heart transplant - you can just write that check and feel good about it.

*DATA*( Obviously we do not do heart transplants in Canada - since the system is so flawed......http://www.google.com/...e=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
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[Ron 10]

TK you are confusing data and opinion.

You could try to claim that your broken neck story is data.... But it and the story of your mother are only anecdotal evidence.... Single storys that prove a position, but do not prove anything more than that ONE situation. And for every single situation you produce, I can produce a situation on how Canadas system failed, or how the US system rocked.

So no, out of all your posts you have brought tons of heartfelt opinions, but one piece of real data.

Claiming an opinion as data does not make it data. Your heart is in the right place, but before you go digging into my wallet to build your idea of a perfect world..... You need to bring more than some personal sob storys and one mans dream of utopia.

You continue to ignore how a class action suit had to be filed in Canada to oppose the system in place. You ignore the long waits, you ignore the lack of availabilty of care, you ignore the quality of care issues.

If the best you can do is bring opinions and personal anecdotal evidence... Well you will never convince anyone of your position

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tkhayes 348]

nice try Ron, your 'opinion' as you would say - not a shred of 'data'

[bodypilot90 0]

when Obama tells your Mother she's to old for a hip replacement I wonder if you feel the same.

[wmw999 2,461]

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when Obama tells your Mother she's to old for a hip replacement I wonder if you feel the same

If someone has the money to pay for a hip replacement when they fracture a hip, they get it. That won't change -- private doctors will not be outlawed.

Currently, if someone poor breaks their hip, they may or may not get a replacement. Either way, it comes out of tax dollars. In the future, those tax dollars will be spread over a larger number of people, and there will be some incentives for more people to use doctors rather than the emergency room. Emergency rooms are incredibly expensive primary-care facilities.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)