nerdgirl 0 #1 June 19, 2009 Last week I was in Belgium for meetings on technology & future warfare. One of the Brits very generously offered to take me to Ypres one afternoon. As well as being the site of significant battles during WWI, the 'salient' area of the Western Front just outside Ypres was also where chemical weapons were used successfully first in modern warfare,* which is significant to me. (The Germans unsuccessfully attempted to use CW earlier on the Eastern Front.) The contrast was striking to me with what we were discussing that occurred less than a century ago. Although when it comes Afghanistan one may need to go back further in time in some areas than 100 years ago. Still putting together thoughts on the comparative roles of technology in World WWI and lessons for weaponry of future wars in which the US & NATO is likely to be involved. Thought some might enjoy some of the pics I took from Ypres and Flanders Fields. Mix of a few tourist-esque pics and ones that I took because I liked the composition. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #2 June 19, 2009 More pics Edit to add: for those who aren't familiar, all of the 54,896 names engraved on the sides of the Menin Gate are British and former British Empire soldiers whose bodies were never found. They have no graves. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #3 June 19, 2009 Nice pics. Thanks for sharing. Future wars? How far into the future?www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ErricoMalatesta 0 #4 June 19, 2009 Quote lessons for weaponry of future wars in which the US & NATO is likely to be involved. What was the conclusion? Once the invisibility suits and microwave beams are perfected regular people are f*ed? Was there any discussion on militarising space? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #5 June 19, 2009 The technology of World War I produced a lot of isolationists here in the US. It was supposed to be "the war to end all wars", but historians believe WWII was a continuation. Saw so many memorials to the "Great War" in the UK; kind of a shock. Your job has nice fringe benefits.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #6 June 19, 2009 Why would you ever think laughing is appropriate? Do you want people to think you are a waste of skin? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ErricoMalatesta 0 #7 June 19, 2009 QuoteWhy would you ever think laughing is appropriate? In what context? Flanders fields? You cannot see the irony in planning for future war at a place that commemorates one of the most pointless wars from the start of last century? Maybe its better to laugh than cry? Quote Do you want people to think you are a waste of skin? Do you want to tone down the attitude cry baby? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #8 June 19, 2009 Quite some time ago (I don't remember when), I read a story about the weapon that would end all wars .... In the final paragrath, they revealed that the tale was set in the middelages and the weapon was the Longbow..... Moral of the story ... each war is s'posed to be the war to end all wars and each weapon invented is the untimate killing machine (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #9 June 19, 2009 QuoteFuture wars? How far into the future? Tomorrow to 100 years from now, although the farther out one goes in time, it's more speculative (obviously). /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #10 June 19, 2009 Quote The technology of World War I produced a lot of isolationists here in the US. It was supposed to be "the war to end all wars", but historians believe WWII was a continuation. Saw so many memorials to the "Great War" in the UK; kind of a shock. At the moment I'm starting from the debate between Bill Lind, et al (later taken up by COL TX Hammes, USMC (ret)) and the Army War College's Antulio J. Echevarria on 4th Gen Warfare, particularly w/r/t insurgencies and role of emerging science and technology. Quote Your job has nice fringe benefits. Yes, it does. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #11 June 19, 2009 QuoteQuite some time ago (I don't remember when), I read a story about the weapon that would end all wars .... In the final paragrath, they revealed that the tale was set in the middelages and the weapon was the Longbow..... While it may not have been the weapon to end all wars, the longbow is a classic example of technology giving one side an asymmetric advantage, like stirrups, steam-engine powered ships, tanks, submarines, stealth, command and control systems, etc. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,009 #12 June 19, 2009 Your one warning. (Errico, you too. Cut it out.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #13 June 19, 2009 QuoteYou cannot see the irony in planning for future war at a place that commemorates one of the most pointless wars from the start of last century? While one might call it ironic, I drew slightly differing conclusions and observations. Perhaps those tangible reminders of the costs of war & ever-present reality of history that one encounters in parts of Europe might be seen as having a beneficial effect on the political debate. Considering that over 100,000 men died in just one of the Battles of Ypres (the 2nd), I observe how much less likely fatalities are in battle today. Much of that is due to protective, defensive, and medical technology. That's the simpler side theoretically (social science "theory" here) tho'. The less easily definable aspect are changes w/r/t strategy and type of warfare, imo. And how those intersect with advances in science and technology. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #14 June 19, 2009 Quoteall of the 54,896 names engraved on the sides of the Menin Gate are British and former British Empire soldiers whose bodies were never found. They have no graves. How the heck did they lose almost 55,000 bodies? That seems rather impossible to do. Thanks for the amazing photos. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #15 June 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteall of the 54,896 names engraved on the sides of the Menin Gate are British and former British Empire soldiers whose bodies were never found. They have no graves. How the heck did they lose almost 55,000 bodies? That seems rather impossible to do. Many of the grave stones are only marked with "A soldier of the Great War/Known Unto God." At the start of the war, many soldiers had 'dog tags' that were compressed cardboard. More precisely, many bodies were/are unidentifiable. At some of the cemetaries the grave stones are touching to symbolize mass graves. And there are just some bodies that were never found in the chaos and destruction of 'No Man's Land.' Every year remains are discovered. Sometimes identified and the name is removed from the Menin Gate. Otherwise reburied as another "A soldier of the Great War/Known Unto God." /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #16 June 19, 2009 Quote Quite some time ago (I don't remember when), I read a story about the weapon that would end all wars .... In the final paragrath, they revealed that the tale was set in the middelages and the weapon was the Longbow..... Moral of the story ... each war is s'posed to be the war to end all wars and each weapon invented is the untimate killing machine In Surrey, a friend pointed out a pub that the Americans and Canadians drank dry (war also produces drinking machines). Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #17 June 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteall of the 54,896 names engraved on the sides of the Menin Gate are British and former British Empire soldiers whose bodies were never found. They have no graves. How the heck did they lose almost 55,000 bodies? That seems rather impossible to do. Many of the grave stones are only marked with "A soldier of the Great War/Known Unto God." At the start of the war, many soldiers had 'dog tags' that were compressed cardboard. More precisely, many bodies were/are unidentifiable. At some of the cemetaries the grave stones are touching to symbolize mass graves. And there are just some bodies that were never found in the chaos and destruction of 'No Man's Land.' Every year remains are discovered. Sometimes identified and the name is removed from the Menin Gate. Otherwise reburied as another "A soldier of the Great War/Known Unto God." /Marg So you're saying the bodies were actually found and buried, just not identified. That's quite a different thing from "bodies not found", that I initially believed you were saying. And not at all unusual during war. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #18 June 19, 2009 QuoteAt the moment I'm starting from the debate between Bill Lind, et al (later taken up by COL TX Hammes, USMC (ret)) and the Army War College's Antulio J. Echevarria on 4th Gen Warfare, particularly w/r/t insurgencies and role of emerging science and technology. I definitely do not agree insurgencies and terrorism are the wave of the next generation. 4GW will be adopted by all sides (due to being largely successfull) rather than just those without a military. Insurgencies are nothing new and are only a tactic against an superior military opposition (French Resistance WW2) or as a supplemental tactic (Vietcong) . 4GW, IMO, will be technology based. Or more specifically, guerrilla warfare heavily supported by technology (i.e. unmanned vehicles).www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #19 June 19, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteall of the 54,896 names engraved on the sides of the Menin Gate are British and former British Empire soldiers whose bodies were never found. They have no graves. How the heck did they lose almost 55,000 bodies? That seems rather impossible to do. Many of the grave stones are only marked with "A soldier of the Great War/Known Unto God." At the start of the war, many soldiers had 'dog tags' that were compressed cardboard. More precisely, many bodies were/are unidentifiable. At some of the cemetaries the grave stones are touching to symbolize mass graves. And there are just some bodies that were never found in the chaos and destruction of 'No Man's Land.' Every year remains are discovered. Sometimes identified and the name is removed from the Menin Gate. Otherwise reburied as another "A soldier of the Great War/Known Unto God." So you're saying the bodies were actually found and buried, just not identified. That's quite a different thing from "bodies not found", that I initially believed you were saying. And not at all unusual during war. Some, yes. A lot, no. As I wrote, there are multiple explanations. And what, I initially wrote remains true. The bodies of the soldiers whose names are inscribed on the Menin Gate have no known graves. Almost 57,000 men is a huge number, regardless of the number in unmarked graves. And there are another 30,000 or so names inscribed at the Tyne Cot cemetery memorial - they ran out of room at the Menin Gate. And the New Zealanders and some Canadians have a separate memorial. There are *not* 70,000 "A soldier of the Great War/Known Unto God" grave markers in the Ypres area. There are a tremendously large number of specific soldiers' bodies that were never recovered. They have no known graves. That was part of what struck me -- how in less than 100 years we can find and identify so precisely, as well as the effort that is made now ... that wasn't for lots of different reasons then ... some just an artifact of it being a very different time. Here's a story of a mass grave of 399 soldiers that was only discovered in 2007. This an area separate from Ypres/salient. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #20 June 19, 2009 my grandfathers brother died in Belgium in WWI, fighting with the Newfoundland Regiment. My grandfather was also shot by a passing airplane and spent a couple years over there I think. He never talked about it much until he was about 75 years old. Wish he was still around to tell me those stories again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Royal_Newfoundland_Regiment Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #21 June 19, 2009 Quote I definitely do not agree insurgencies and terrorism are the wave of the next generation. Curious - what do you think will be the most likely form of warfare in the ensuing 20 years or so? State on state? Quote 4GW, IMO, will be technology based. Or more specifically, guerrilla warfare heavily supported by technology (i.e. unmanned vehicles). Concur that unmanned vehicles -- both semi-autonomous and autonomous -- are the next significant military innovation. E.g., see the bullet on Armed Robots in Warfare from my "Top Underreported Stories of 2007." While Hezbellah has employed UAVs, I'm less certain that will be a strategic route non-state actors (whether terrorists or insurgents) will regularly employ or that will have capabilities to challenge US. I'm open to opposing arguments but haven't seen/heard one yet that convinces me. Perhaps you can? Why do you specifically think guerrillas (how do you differentiate from insurgents?) will pursue unmanned vehicles? (As opposed to cyber or other means?) What's the advantage? The AWC's Strategic Studies Institute's Annual Conference this year was on "Strategic Implications of Emerging Technologies." (One of the speaker's from another panel recommended my book .) ... I just got a hard copy of the summary, written by Echevarria today in the mail ... can't find a link One of the panel's was on "Robotics and Contemporary/Future Warfare" ... some interesting things were discussed. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #22 June 20, 2009 QuoteCurious - what do you think will be the most likely form of warfare in the ensuing 20 years or so? State on state? Insurgents/terrorists. But that doesn't mean it's 4GW. It's about the only option they have considering their circumstances. Edited to add: I do not believe it would be their first choice if they had other reasonable options. The main reason I do not believe insurgency is 4GW is because generational warfare is adopted by all sides. 1GW - Massed manpower 2GW - firepower 3GW - manuever These were tactics everyone used once it was developed. Simply because the next gen made the last gen obsolete. Just ask the French when Germany decided to roll over them with tanks. Continuous defense had become obsolete. Insurgency, while we may see it adopted by those without a sufficient military, won't be adopted (imo)by the US, China, Russia, or any other major army of the world becuase I do not see it making firepower and manuever obsolete. The more I think about it the entire theory of generational warfare has a lot of holes in it. Unortunately, I'm out of time for today but I do have a lot of thoughts on this so will touch on it again within the next few days.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #23 June 20, 2009 QuoteQuoteall of the 54,896 names engraved on the sides of the Menin Gate are British and former British Empire soldiers whose bodies were never found. They have no graves. How the heck did they lose almost 55,000 bodies? That seems rather impossible to do. Thanks for the amazing photos. For all the attention given to the machine gun and gas, the bulk of the battlefield casualties were the result of artillery. The non-combat deaths due to disease were off the scale as well, but they generally knew the identity of troops who succumbed at the hospital or aid station. When receiving a direct hit from a big gun, it may be difficult to collect enough remains to perform DNA testing, and what remains of the ID tag could wind up a long, long way away. At Verdun, some 60,000,000 shells of calibre 75mm or larger were expended over a 10 month period in an area of 10 sq. km. It is ill advised even now to wander about looking for souveniers, since 2 or 3 people are blown to smithereens each year by setting off duds that took 9 decades to go bang. Going off the path is a bad idea also from the standpoint that there is hardly a square metre that does not consist of one or more overlapping craters. Any body that was not collected immediately was likely vaporized at some later date by subsequent hits. One charming side effect was that the countryside was thus coated with a patina of rotting human flesh for months on end. Drinking from a puddle was akin to sampling a petri dish of human-specific pathogens. At the Ossuary at Douamont there are collected the bones of some hundreds of thousands of dead - French, German and only God knows who. In front of the Ossuary are 25,000 graves where they had enough to bury, though a large number of them are unknown. Fully 1/3 of the Commonwealth graves read "Here Lies a Soldier of the Great War Known Unto God." The French version reads something like "Mort Pour le Patrie." A trip through the Western Front is something you are not likely to forget. I sure as hell was not braced for it. BSBD, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,032 #24 June 20, 2009 I believe a lot of people now (especially in the US) are unaware of the carnage in WWI. Anyone with a hawkish disposition should visit Verdun, Paschendale or the Somme and get an attitude adjustment. Five of my uncles were in WWI, one of them was gassed at the Somme. 19,240 British KIA on July 1, 1916 alone. Each centimeter of ground taken cost 2 British casualties.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #25 June 20, 2009 I lost 5 relatives in WWI Six served two were gassed. One we don't know how. Two died from artillery and we don't know if they ever got a burial. One wounded. My Grandpa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
