rushmc 23 #101 June 29, 2009 Quote Quote And who gets to decide that, BESIDES you? there are these things called morals! There are 6 billion people on this planet, if we all used as much crap as you do, we would already be dead! It is called moderation, a concept you may not be able to fathom. BINGO!!!!! The big green moster raises his head. "America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
makeithappen40 0 #102 June 29, 2009 Isn't Co2 a prime factor in breaking down O3? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #103 June 29, 2009 QuoteThe Catholic church also used "common sense" and "basic physics" to say that the Earth was the center of the Universe, too. That one didn't work out to well for them. no they didn't they used assumtion. QuoteBasic physics and common sense haven't quite answered the global warming debate yet. However, you can be firm in knowing that there will always be people out there who will never admit to you that their conception of something is false. Name your own examples. we know the answer to human influenced climate change, we need to stop burning excessive fossil fuels, we need to pollute less, we need to develop more efficient recycling systems, we need to reduce refuse. are we doing it?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #104 June 29, 2009 QuoteQuoteAnd who gets to decide that, BESIDES you? there are these things called morals! Would that be the 'morals' that state rhys' use of oil to skydive is ok, but lawrocket's use to support his family is abuse? Those 'morals'? QuoteIt is called moderation, a concept you may not be able to fathom. Yeah, whatever you say - you'll forgive me if I have a less-than-lively respect for your opinion OR 'morals' on this issue.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
makeithappen40 0 #105 June 29, 2009 Unfortunately, for every time you say that there is a debate, there are five more rushMC's out there to tell you that your wrong. The problem here, is that the rushMC's out there might have a point here, so we (for once) can't discredit that. There are valid objections to global warming theories, dude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #106 June 29, 2009 Quote Perhaps the most notable push to fund car-centric development came at the hands of GM President Charles Wilson, who was appointed Secretary of Defense in 1953 and immediately began lobbying for a federal interstate system - for military purposes, of course. Certainly the interstate encourages more car travel. But the efficiency gains are huge, both economically and ecologically. When traveling in 3rd world nations (Central America) and 2nd (Poland), you see the a big cause for their weaker economy. I think tract housing is the bigger culprit here - developers bought up cheap land on the outskirts and crammed it full of houses, with marginal attention to school needs (when forced), and none at all to transport infrastructure or serious building up of a local job base (retail malls aren't exactly diverse). --- Personally, I'm willing to ignore the CO2 depart for car efficiency when the economic costs to our nation so clearly favor more substantial action. I'm on board with the notion that most of the SUV drivers are "unAmerican" and I want better options than what I currently have. Since the consumers won't create the market, the government has to. Would I prefer an open market...probably. But that won't solve this problem as long as we collectively abuse the public good of subsidized gas prices. It's interesting that even with gas trending up to ~3/gallon again this summer, we don't see quite the same whining as last year. Maybe people are starting to see their own responsibility in it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #107 June 29, 2009 QuoteWould that be the 'morals' that state rhys' use of oil to skydive is ok, but lawrocket's use to support his family is abuse? Those 'morals'? you and your mate lawrocket need to learn to read, i never said it was bad to stack 7 people into a a large vehicle, I even stated that is all good. what it not O.k. is one person driving a behemouth truck to haul his lard ass to work when he could be using a 1/3 of the energy to do the same thing. I would not take a twin otter up with only me onboard, and no dz owner in his right mind would do either. Moderation is a concept you don't seem to undrstand."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #108 June 29, 2009 QuoteI would not take a twin otter up with only me onboard, and no dz owner in his right mind would do either. What stops the DZO? Would he do it for you if you paid for 22 tickets, even if you were the only one on board the plane?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #109 June 29, 2009 QuoteUnfortunately, for every time you say that there is a debate, there are five more rushMC's out there to tell you that your wrong. The problem here, is that the rushMC's out there might have a point here, so we (for once) can't discredit that. There are valid objections to global warming theories, dude. you may be right and the rush mc's out there may also be correct in saying that we do not have a signifacant influence on the global temperature. but one thing is for certain, we are decemating the stability of the earths ecosystems at a rate so high that it will take centuries to recover fully if we were to dissapear today. we are all dependant on having a healthy environment, we can do things to reduce our impact but it will only work if we all are in it together. it seems that is impossible unfortunately."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #110 June 29, 2009 QuoteWhat stops the DZO? Would he do it for you if you paid for 22 tickets, even if you were the only one on board the plane? fortunately I would never consider doing that."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #111 June 29, 2009 QuoteQuoteWould that be the 'morals' that state rhys' use of oil to skydive is ok, but lawrocket's use to support his family is abuse? Those 'morals'? you and your mate lawrocket need to learn to read, Quotei go to work as a skydiver, i walk to work you drive... Was it some OTHER rhys that wrote this? Your evil twin, perhaps? QuoteModeration is a concept you don't seem to undrstand. And hypocrisy is one you certainly don't.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #112 June 29, 2009 QuoteQuoteI would not take a twin otter up with only me onboard, and no dz owner in his right mind would do either. What stops the DZO? Would he do it for you if you paid for 22 tickets, even if you were the only one on board the plane? On a weekday, probably. On a weekend - if that means lots of guys sitting on the ground, probably not. It would be another example of short term thinking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #113 June 29, 2009 what are drivvling about now. i think it is ok to have a large vehicle to haul large loads, but 80%of the lage vehicles out there have 1 person in them. why do you think there are car pool lanes? just for shits and giggles?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #114 June 29, 2009 QuoteI would not take a twin otter up with only me onboard, and no dz owner in his right mind would do either. If you paid the DZ owner the equivalent-plus of a full load, I am quite certain he would. Quotewhat it not O.k. is one person driving a behemouth truck to haul his lard ass to work when he could be using a 1/3 of the energy to do the same thing. What makes the SUV the sole-target of this discussion w/r/t massive energy-consumption? What do you drive? Where do you live? What is the square-footage of your house and how many people live in it? What do you eat? From where does your food purchases originate? What are you hobbies? How many kids do you have? Do you own any pets? What do you use to clean yourself and your house? Do you keep any plants in or around the house? How do you keep them? It is OK with me if anyone thinks I am an idiot, un-American, insecure, silly girl simply because I drive an SUV. I wonder though. What do you think of the skydiving teen/early twenty-something driving a Geo Metro? Or the skydiving, working college-grad driving a Pontiac Sunfire? What makes that person so awfully different than the non-skydiving, professional driving a Toyota Sequoia?Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #115 June 29, 2009 QuoteWhat makes the SUV the sole-target of this discussion Its not, just the post whores keep prooding for a reaction and chose that example to focus on. I share a car with 4 people, before this car/living in the USA i have not owned a car for for over 3 years, i have lived close enough to walk and i had an electric skateboard for the last year before coming here. I walk to work and only use the car to drive to the store every 3 days or so. i refuse plasic bags at the store, much to the amazement of the check out staff, i recycle, i often eat organic food, cage free eggs.... I give a shit about our world, i'm not perfect, but i give a shit."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #116 June 29, 2009 Quote if that means lots of guys sitting on the ground, probably not. It would be another example of short term thinking. I like you. But, "lots of guys sitting on the ground" will still be there one load later. Surely they are not going anywhere despite they might be miffed at the asshole who bought the load for his selfish self. Even if said asshole bought the load for his sellfish self the entire day. Would said guys on the ground never return? Of course they would. How many nearby dropzones are there to choose from? And what if said asshole were a big movie producer filming scenes--would said lots of guys on the ground not understand? Would they not still sit around hoping to be extras? I realize this response might piss some people off. It pisses me off. I am pissed my favorite "insiders/locals" spot to park at the beach now has "no parking" signs--despite it is a public beach, but is lined with $5M plus mansions--even though there is (limited) public beach access. Fuck them! But, if I had the money and lived there, I would probably sign my name and vote for the "no parking" signs, too.Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #117 June 29, 2009 Quote Its not, just the post whores keep prooding for a reaction and chose that example to focus on. I share a car with 4 people, before this car/living in the USA i have not owned a car for for over 3 years, i have lived close enough to walk and i had an electric skateboard for the last year before coming here. I walk to work and only use the car to drive to the store every 3 days or so. i refuse plasic bags at the store, much to the amazement of the check out staff, i recycle, i often eat organic food, cage free eggs.... I give a shit about our world, i'm not perfect, but i give a shit. Well, than you and I (the SUV driver) are not so different. I do not have to drive to work. When I am in my car it is usually with another person or two and my dog. I also refuse plastic bags (thanks to my new CatGenie) and I recycle, eat mostly oragnic food, and always cage-free eggs if/when I eat them. I also give a shit about our world. I also am not perfect, but I--too--give a shit. I hope if you saw my blonde, big-glasses, skinny-girl ass in my Sequoia one day you would not think we are so different simply because of my vehicle of choice (her name is Big Lola and I love her. )Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #118 June 29, 2009 QuoteI would not take a twin otter up with only me onboard... Did we ever resolve if the Otter or the Cessna is more fuel efficient on a per-jumper basis? If it took more fuel per jumper to get the Otter to altitude, would you insist on taking the Cessna, even though it's less convenient? Or would your convenience trump your concern for the planet?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #119 June 29, 2009 QuoteDid we ever resolve if the Otter or the Cessna is more fuel efficient on a per-jumper basis? If it took more fuel per jumper to get the Otter to altitude, would you insist on taking the Cessna, even though it's less convenient? Or would your convenience trump your concern for the planet? i'm not an aircraft engineer or pilot but I do think you would be dreaming if you think 11 cessna loads would be more efficient than one otter load, not only is jet a1 less harmful/refined, turbines use less fuel when compared. less friction in a turbine than in a piston so I would put my money on a the otter!"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #120 June 29, 2009 Quote What makes the SUV the sole-target of this discussion w/r/t massive energy-consumption? It's the biggest target, certainly. When you see the freeways jammed full of 6000lb cars with single occupants, getting mileage in the low teens, it's an obvious problem. Last year's high gas prices lead to a rather minor reduction in consumption (3%? 6%?) that had a dramatic reduction in the price. If the 80% of SUV owners switched to a vehicle more appropriate for their actual needs, that would be a lot more than 6% gained. Sedans aren't immune from the discussion - starting in the 90s power and torque became the key sell, not mileage, but they still average in the mid 20s. It was the fact that SUVs didn't count against the same average that lead to their surge. As I said, my concern with this is more about the future of oil availability and the hundreds of billions we send out of the country annually, rather than CO2. We know the issues with the first two, without uncertainty. I see no reason to drill drill drill if it's just going to feed fat fucks in Suburbans, Hummers, or Land Rovers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #121 June 29, 2009 >less friction in a turbine than in a piston so I would put my money on a the otter! In GA, recip engines are pretty universally more efficient than jet engines. You pay a penalty for giving up the closed-volume expansion engine. Otters use approx 1 gallon per load per person with a full otter (23/24 people.) Anyone have numbers for a cessna? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #122 June 30, 2009 Quotewhy do you think there are car pool lanes? From what I see? mainly to make people pat themselves on the back for doing something that is perceived green. Oh and for those people that drive in them. Single users in SUVs (breaking the law), and Mom's in minivans with a single child in back (who would not be driving separately anyway). as usual - the law may be well intentioned, but in practice it causes more harm than good ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #123 June 30, 2009 QuoteI hope if you saw my blonde, big-glasses, skinny-girl ass in my Sequoia one day you would not think we are so different simply because of my vehicle of choice (her name is Big Lola and I love her. Tongue) why do you own such a vehicle, do you use its capabilities or do you just think it is cool? I don't judge everyone i see, but there are some that are obviously just attention seekers. having a utility vehicle jacked up so high that you would need a ladder to get you tool box in the back is plain old stupid. having one full of tools or equipmen or stuff is fine. having a 4wd for 4wd'ing is also fine, having one to drop your fat kids 2 miles to school is pathetic."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #124 June 30, 2009 OK, but... While I agree is is a "big" target, it is arguably not the biggest (and you know what I refer to as trumping it). Furthermore, does overall energy consumption not count for something or is it "You use less than most, but you drive an SUV so..." And what are the short-term/long-term benefits for the present SUV-owner for switching? For me, when Big Lola dies, I will look for another vehicle. Is it your opinion I should get rid of her now and opt for something different? If so, why? I recognize your argument is more about oil and less about CO2. It is the smart stance to take, imo. But, I would argue I use less oil than many others do. I would not argue all (or most) SUV drivers do. I simply disagree with calling one un-American or an idiot based on that fact (SUV driver) alone--for biased reasons, of course. But, if you think me un-American I guess I will just have to find another way to sleep at night. Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #125 June 30, 2009 Quote do you use its capabilies or do you just think it is cool? Both. Yes, when I was out shopping for X, I saw Y and it was as if a ray of sunshine on a cloudy day (literally, it was raining) were shining upon her. I had to have her. And I left three times before I finally returned and submitted to my evil indulgence.Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
