kbordson 8 #76 July 2, 2009 Y Quote Man all this talk about socialism. I thought we were an autonomis collective. . Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!! Back to the original thread topic: I don't think that most people have problems working for what they WANT. It's working for what you NEED that is NO FUN. Being a RESPONSIBLE adult. Prioritizing needs and giving up the wants. That's where we as a society are failing. You don't need cable. You don't need Internet. You don't need a cell phone. But everybody WANTS them. And wants are displacing needs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DARK 0 #77 July 3, 2009 Quote Quote we also dont have anyone going bankrupt because of medical bills QuoteThis is true(VAT). so that is true you didnt even put any if ands or buts onto you said that is true. so accepting that. whay should that not be the case in every society on the planet? Quotebut you need to evaluate everything together. What you said is basically that everyone who is working is paying for free healthcare for everyone through taxes. And that's the reason you're paying 41% income tax over 36KE income, and have 21% sales tax[/reply whats the downside to that though? i come from an upper income bracket tax group and i understand why there are people paying 41% of some of their income in taxes why cant other people? QuoteYou could even look on it in a different way: I personally know a few people who immigrated from Ireland to the USA, and I guess there is more people than I know. How many people do you know who have immigrated into Ireland from the USA? personally right now i probably know slightly more people who emigrated to the states compared to emigrate out of but thats cause im related to alot of them i know alot of people who emigrated to ireland either way i dont see it as relevant to the question of weather or not obama is a socialist or not but i anwered it all the same Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #78 July 3, 2009 Quote so that is true you didnt even put any if ands or buts onto you said that is true. so accepting that. whay should that not be the case in every society on the planet? Because every benefit comes with drawbacks. It was said here long time ago - healthcare could be high-quality, cheap and available - choose two. In your case it seems to be available and high-quality (is it?) but not quite cheap. Quote whats the downside to that though? i come from an upper income bracket tax group and i understand why there are people paying 41% of some of their income in taxes why cant other people? Because it discourages productivity. People do not have stimulus to work harder and make more money if they eventually have to give 60% of their earnings to the government. This means hard working smart people, who would like to work hard and make a lot of money will try to move out of Ireland (that's what is happening), but the people who would like to use free healthcare and pay little to no tax will move into Ireland (and this is happening as well - didn't you guys just voted for change in citizenship laws?) Well, why I'm even saying all that? You are seeing it yourself every day. Quotepersonally right now i probably know slightly more people who emigrated to the states compared to emigrate out of but thats cause im related to alot of them i know alot of people who emigrated to ireland Exactly. You have people who are leaving the country, who are working hard and making money. And you're having people who are coming into the country, to use its healthcare and government welfare. Not every of them, of course, but the numbers are large enough to be subject of public discussion everywhere in Ireland. Tell me I'm wrong!* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DARK 0 #79 July 3, 2009 Quote Because every benefit comes with drawbacks. It was said here long time ago - healthcare could be high-quality, cheap and available - choose two. In your case it seems to be available and high-quality (is it?) but not quite cheap. why should it be cheap? our system is not cheap it takes up alot of tax dollars. it is still worth it. running a country is not always about hiring the lowest bidder Quote Because it discourages productivity. People do not have stimulus to work harder and make more money if they eventually have to give 60% of their earnings to the government. This means hard working smart people, who would like to work hard and make a lot of money will try to move out of Ireland (that's what is happening), but the people who would like to use free healthcare and pay little to no tax will move into Ireland (and this is happening as well - didn't you guys just voted for change in citizenship laws?) Well, why I'm even saying all that? You are seeing it yourself every day.[/reply no it dosnt people give 41% not 60% not even if you include vat is it 60% i can tell you right now without a doubt that the people emigrating from ireland and those who have emigrated for the last 20 or 30 years are not our highest educated citizens far from it it has always been trades men that were the highest emigration demographic. as for the people emigrating to ireland from america. trust me we are not having any debate about weather or not to let american immigrants into the country it is not the social welfare seeking lower class of the states that is emigrating to ireland it is the distinclty middle class who even contemplate the possibility of visiting ireland not to mention emigrating to there that are moving to ireland also we dont want your workers we want your companies to employ OUR workers which is why we have one of the lowest corporation taxes in teh world and thats why there are hundreds of american companies based in ireland and those same taxes cover all our socialist benefits. your communist president is now trying to compete and bring back these capitalist industries. he is using his countries tax rates as a point of competition to encourage the companies to go back.. how can you say this is socialist it is the very definition of capitalism and competition QuoteYou have people who are leaving the country, who are working hard and making money. im sorry you are talking crap people dont leave their country because they are doing well even if the country they are leaving is america Quote And you're having people who are coming into the country, to use its healthcare and government welfare. to an extent we are now paying for having poorer countries in the eu but we would not have 25 years of the largest economic growth in the world without having cheaper labour emigrating to ireland. just like america would not be were it is today without having the huge number of emigrant irish going over to work construction cheaper. so now that we are poorer than we were why should forget about these people who helped us so much not even to mention the fact that without the eu we would be a 3rd world country so to chooose between being a 3rd world country and a technologically advanced 1st world country during a recession id choose the latter every time QuoteTell me I'm wrong! it depends what your talking about you implied you were talking about american emigrants and if you were than you are 100% wrong. if your talking about eastern europeans then you are back to the same debate as american has about the mexicans and canadians. neither of which has any bearing on the question of weather or not america right now is under a socialist goverment or not. i say its not Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #80 July 3, 2009 Quote why should it be cheap? our system is not cheap it takes up alot of tax dollars. Because if the system is expensive, and gets more and more participants, basically you will need to raise taxes each couple of years to cover the expansion. Quote people give 41% not 60% not even if you include vat is it 60% Of course I include VAT. You're paying it for everything except food. Even for services. Quote i can tell you right now without a doubt that the people emigrating from ireland and those who have emigrated for the last 20 or 30 years are not our highest educated citizens far from it it has always been trades men that were the highest emigration demographic. I didn't talk about highest educated citizens either. From my experience, "highest education" has no visible correlation with one's ability to make money. I talk about the people who work hard, make a lot of money, and pay back a lot in taxes. Quote as for the people emigrating to ireland from america. trust me we are not having any debate about weather or not to let american immigrants into the country it is not the social welfare seeking lower class of the states that is emigrating to ireland it is the distinclty middle class who even contemplate the possibility of visiting ireland not to mention emigrating to there that are moving to ireland We're talking about immigration, not visitors. The argument was that a lot of smart and hard working Irish people prefer US paid healthcare to Ireland free healthcare. And there is little to no migration into the opposite direction. This should prove something, right? Quote also we dont want your workers we want your companies to employ OUR workers which is why we have one of the lowest corporation taxes in teh world and thats why there are hundreds of american companies based in ireland and those same taxes cover all our socialist benefits. In past, yes - mostly during the boom peak. But according to my sources it's going down since 2005. We'll talk again in couple of years. Quote your communist president is now trying to compete and bring back these capitalist industries. Sorry to disappoint you, but not from Ireland. Look on the numbers. Ireland population is 4.5M people, which is roughly 1.75% of USA population, and even 2M less than just Bay Area alone. So even if ALL private industry jobs came from Ireland to USA (estimating 50%), it would only boost unemployment by less than 1%. Quote im sorry you are talking crap people dont leave their country because they are doing well even if the country they are leaving is america So are they leaving, or they are not leaving? I can't understand you. Quote to an extent we are now paying for having poorer countries in the eu but we would not have 25 years of the largest economic growth in the world without having cheaper labour emigrating to ireland. Largest economic growth, probably if you look on percentage. Or you compare to the countries of similar size?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DARK 0 #81 July 3, 2009 Quote Because if the system is expensive, and gets more and more participants, basically you will need to raise taxes each couple of years to cover the expansion. regardless of the initial price of the system if more and more people participate you need to spend more that is not an argument for anything accept common sense. if something costs 5 euro but you want 2 of them then you need to spend 10 euro. that dosnt mean what your buying is not worth it Quote Of course I include VAT. You're paying it for everything except food. Even for services. i didnt say dont include vat i said even if you include vat we dont pay 60% which you suggest so you were wrong. QuoteI didn't talk about highest educated citizens either. From my experience, "highest education" has no visible correlation with one's ability to make money. I talk about the people who work hard, make a lot of money, and pay back a lot in taxes. ok ill put it another way. people who work hard and earn alot of money in ireland are not emigrating to america. some of them are but as a rule.. certainly not QuoteWe're talking about immigration, not visitors. The argument was that a lot of smart and hard working Irish people prefer US paid healthcare to Ireland free healthcare. And there is little to no migration into the opposite direction. This should prove something, right? once again you completely missed my point. the people in america who are on welfare are NOT the ones who decide they want to emigrate from america to ireland. it dosnt matter how good our social welfare system is (first of all they are not entitled to any of it because they are not part of the eu) it is middle class 3rd level educated american citizens who see irelands lower crime rates free healthcare and free education as more important than living in the united states of america Quote In past, yes - mostly during the boom peak. But according to my sources it's going down since 2005. We'll talk again in couple of years. we will talk again and the same thing will be happening becaues we are a small export economy. we will be trying to keep your emigrants out and your companies in Quote Sorry to disappoint you, but not from Ireland. Look on the numbers. Ireland population is 4.5M people, which is roughly 1.75% of USA population, and even 2M less than just Bay Area alone. So even if ALL private industry jobs came from Ireland to USA (estimating 50%), it would only boost unemployment by less than 1%. sorry to dissapoint you but it has nothing to do with unemployment rates and everything to do with value for money for the companies and how much profit they can make in ireland and not pay tax on in america. obama desperately wants all this tax and employment to return to america whish is why ireland is ranked in the top 3 most beneficial countries to companies as far as corporate tax is concerned in the world along with switzerland and the caribean as far as i remember but the other two countries i mentioned could be wrong btw thats according to the us goverment in case your wondering Quote So are they leaving, or they are not leaving? I can't understand you. your argument is that well educated hard working people are leaving ireland because it sucks for them and that poorly educated social welfare leeches are leaving america to live in ireland because our social welfare system is better for them. im saying both assumptions are wrong because 1 the hard working wel educated can do way better in ireland relative to how they can do in the states and that the leeches you say are coming here have no way to get here and are not entitled to our social welfare system in the first place so why would they come? Quote Largest economic growth, probably if you look on percentage. Or you compare to the countries of similar size? of course you are scaling all the countries on the planet to a comparable size otherwise whats the point? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #82 July 3, 2009 Quote Quote Actually you do not pay one red cent to our nations Military. Well, he should. I think it's high time we collected reparations for all our uncompensated efforts in the last couple World Wars. i don't think you did anything in those wars tom - so stop claiming credit for something you had no hand in (meanwhile no charge for the use of the english language - you can carry on using it)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #83 July 3, 2009 Quote regardless of the initial price of the system if more and more people participate you need to spend more that is not an argument for anything accept common sense. This is not true if people who join the system are high-income earners, because they bring more into the system than they take from it. However when you have more and more poor people joining the system, this is exactly what happens. Quote i didnt say dont include vat i said even if you include vat we dont pay 60% which you suggest so you were wrong. According to this website the income tax in Ireland for low income is 20% and is 41% over 36KE. So I'm averaging 30% income for a high-earner. There is also 2% levy on the income below 75KE. Then there is PRSI, which is average 8%, so we're at 40% now. And of course there is 21.5% VAT giving us total 61.5%. Did I make anything wrong? Quote ok ill put it another way. people who work hard and earn alot of money in ireland are not emigrating to america. some of them are but as a rule.. certainly not Of course not all of them are, and not all of them can. The issue is that some do, and it should make you wonder why you see the migration that way, and not the opposite way considering "free" healthcare in Ireland. Quote once again you completely missed my point. the people in america who are on welfare are NOT the ones who decide they want to emigrate from america to ireland. I guess some would probably love to :) Quote we will talk again and the same thing will be happening becaues we are a small export economy. we will be trying to keep your emigrants out and your companies in Which failed so far, as I see. At least the news doesn't look good. Quote sorry to dissapoint you but it has nothing to do with unemployment rates and everything to do with value for money for the companies and how much profit they can make in ireland and not pay tax on in america. I don't understand your point. If the company doesn't need employees and just want to have low corporate taxes, there is a lot of Caribbean countries with low corporate tax - much lower than Ireland's 12.5%, which is not significantly lower than U.S. 15%. If the company needs quality workforce, the country with only 5M people provides relatively small pool of potential employees, making it more difficult and expensive to find and keep proper employees. Quote obama desperately wants all this tax and employment to return to america whish is why ireland is ranked in the top 3 most beneficial countries to companies as far as corporate tax is concerned in the world along with switzerland and the caribean as far as i remember but the other two countries i mentioned could be wrong Again, I think you overestimate the Ireland value to Obama. As I said before, we're talking about maximum 2.5mil jobs there, which is not even worth pursuing when you have countries like India or China. And I don't think there is a lot of Ireland-only companies who do not do business in USA (if they do, they have to pay tax here anyway), which are worth "returning". Quote btw thats according to the us goverment in case your wondering Could you please provide a relevant link to prove your point? Quote your argument is that well educated hard working people are leaving ireland because it sucks for them and that poorly educated social welfare leeches are leaving america to live in ireland because our social welfare system is better for them. That's pretty strange reading. I didn't say poorly educated social welfare leeches are leaving america to live in ireland, as they are not. However Ireland does have a lot of poor uneducated immigration - mostly from Eastern Europe and Middle East. Quote of course you are scaling all the countries on the planet to a comparable size otherwise whats the point? Because if you're comparing percents, then the economy which grew up from 10M to 30M would show up extreme 300% growth, while a larger country might grow up from 10B to 11B with 10% growth. However if you look on absolute numbers, the first economy grew 20M and the second one grew 1B, which is 50 times more. See?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #84 July 3, 2009 QuoteWhich people in particular? (Still hoping for an answer from Turtle, next time he logs on to this thread...) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,452 #85 July 3, 2009 QuoteI don't think that most people have problems working for what they WANT. It's working for what you NEED that is NO FUN. Being a RESPONSIBLE adult. Prioritizing needs and giving up the wants. That's where we as a society are failing. You don't need cable. You don't need Internet. You don't need a cell phone. But everybody WANTS them. And wants are displacing needs.Bingo. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DARK 0 #86 July 3, 2009 Quote This is not true if people who join the system are high-income earners, because they bring more into the system than they take from it. However when you have more and more poor people joining the system, this is exactly what happens. which is why you aim to have as small as possible a percentage of poor people. you will never eliminate poverty completely but you can come pretty close and that way almost everyone contributes QuoteDid I make anything wrong? yes, we do not pay the 21% out of our salaries along with prsi paye and the levies so i dont see how you can just affix it on to get to a 61% tax figure. Quote Of course not all of them are, and not all of them can. The issue is that some do, and it should make you wonder why you see the migration that way, and not the opposite way considering "free" healthcare in Ireland. well they wouldnt be entitled to it for one thing, until they have been here a certain time and paid taxes. Quote Which failed so far, as I see. At least the news doesn't look good. ye we have lost a lot of companies in the recession no doubt so all bets are off as to what might happen im talking about what has been happening and in the past we have a fairly good track record of attracting foreign business to come and employ our highly educated work force Quote I don't understand your point. If the company doesn't need employees and just want to have low corporate taxes, there is a lot of Caribbean countries with low corporate tax - much lower than Ireland's 12.5%, which is not significantly lower than U.S. 15%. If the company needs quality workforce, the country with only 5M people provides relatively small pool of potential employees, making it more difficult and expensive to find and keep proper employees. we tend to attract high technology high profit companies like intel for example. they cant just go to any tax haven and find the university educated workforce they need Quote Again, I think you overestimate the Ireland value to Obama. As I said before, we're talking about maximum 2.5mil jobs there, which is not even worth pursuing when you have countries like India or China. And I don't think there is a lot of Ireland-only companies who do not do business in USA (if they do, they have to pay tax here anyway), which are worth "returning". oh absolutely when i say obama is desperate to get these jobs backs i mean world wide not that he is jsut concentrating on ireland but we will be affected all the same Quote Could you please provide a relevant link to prove your point? this is the first one that popped up http://www.tribune.ie/business/news/article/2009/feb/01/tax-haven-ireland-on-obamas-hit-list/ Quote That's pretty strange reading. I didn't say poorly educated social welfare leeches are leaving america to live in ireland, as they are not. However Ireland does have a lot of poor uneducated immigration - mostly from Eastern Europe and Middle East. ye we did have during the boom years alright mostly polish but alot of them are leaving now that there are no jobs to be found. as i said already we needed this cheap workforce here to build our economy the last 20 years QuoteBecause if you're comparing percents, then the economy which grew up from 10M to 30M would show up extreme 300% growth, while a larger country might grow up from 10B to 11B with 10% growth. However if you look on absolute numbers, the first economy grew 20M and the second one grew 1B, which is 50 times more. See? of course i understand that but ireland has been consistently highly ranked as one of the top growing economies in the world for the last 20 years thats all i said i cant even remember why we are talking about ireland like this oh ye because i said that we have a national healthcare system and free 3rd level education and we are nowhere close to a socialist society........unless you disagree with this then what are we debating? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites redlegphi 0 #87 July 4, 2009 >You don't need cable. Agreed. >You don't need Internet. Agreed, though you probably do need some kind of access to internet from time to time if you're looking for a job. Public libraries tend to cover that need though. >You don't need a cell phone. Once again, if you're looking for a job, you need a phone number. If you can't afford a landline, a pay as you go cell phone can be a cheap way to make sure that your potential employer can call you back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #88 July 4, 2009 Quote yes, we do not pay the 21% out of our salaries along with prsi paye and the levies so i dont see how you can just affix it on to get to a 61% tax figure. Your employer pays PRSI, so it is your direct cost as employee to him. Those money are going to tax authorities instead of you, and therefore should be considered tax on you as it is. You ARE paying 21% VAT on basically everything except food and few articles/services, so it's pretty reasonable to consider it as well. Quote ye we have lost a lot of companies in the recession no doubt so all bets are off as to what might happen im talking about what has been happening and in the past we have a fairly good track record of attracting foreign business to come and employ our highly educated work force If you compare your fairly good track with India or China numbers, you'd see it yourself that Ireland is not a real concern in terms of attracting business. Quote we tend to attract high technology high profit companies like intel for example. they cant just go to any tax haven and find the university educated workforce they need C'mon, are you joking? You didn't "attract" Intel, it didn't move HQ there. It just opened an office in Ireland, and your corporate tax rate has nothing to do with it as it still pays most of its corporate taxes in US. Actually Intel has offices in India and China as well, and even in Russia (and probably in twenty more countries around the world), this is just a single drop in a rain. Quote oh absolutely when i say obama is desperate to get these jobs backs i mean world wide not that he is jsut concentrating on ireland but we will be affected all the same No, not the same. Just look on numbers. Quote this is the first one that popped up http://www.tribune.ie/business/news/article/2009/feb/01/tax-haven-ireland-on-obamas-hit-list/ "IRELAND has been included in a list of tax havens compiled by two key allies of US President Barack Obama" - so what is your point? You said about some government actions, and that's it??? Quote ye we did have during the boom years alright mostly polish but alot of them are leaving now that there are no jobs to be found. Most of them already have citizenship, so they aren't leaving anywhere and going to fully use the welfare system. And there is a lot of them - I even happen to know some of those people. Quote oh ye because i said that we have a national healthcare system and free 3rd level education and we are nowhere close to a socialist society........unless you disagree with this then what are we debating? What is "socialist society"? I define it as the more services the government provides for "free" and the more it taxes you, the more socialistic the country is. Therefore full socialism would mean 100% tax, and the government provides everything, from underwear to plane tickets. Of course it never happened, so we only could talk about relative, and comparing to USA you're definitely much closer.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #89 July 4, 2009 Quote What is "socialist society"? I define it as the more services the government provides for "free" and the more it taxes you, the more socialistic the country is. Therefore full socialism would mean 100% tax, and the government provides everything, from underwear to plane tickets. Of course it never happened, so we only could talk about relative, and comparing to USA you're definitely much closer. which would mean that socialists invented the atom bomb and took us to the moon (clever people)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #90 July 4, 2009 Also that socialism is responsible for every war ever fought by nation states (war mongers) -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,317 #91 July 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteI take it you also went to private school? Yes. And My family sacrificed their time and energy to do that. my parents both took second jobs to allow for my sister and I to do that. While they paid their property tax apportionment for the public school system.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Krip 2 #92 July 4, 2009 Quote Why do my taxes have to support them? Becaise everyone doesn't has the assets to have a Bernie Madoff in thier corner.One Jump Wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 221 #93 July 4, 2009 Quote either way i dont see it as relevant to the question of weather or not obama is a socialist or not but i anwered it all the same Actually, I believe the question was " Why can't people just work for what they want?"I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #94 July 4, 2009 QuoteQuote either way i dont see it as relevant to the question of weather or not obama is a socialist or not but i anwered it all the same Actually, I believe the question was " Why can't people just work for what they want?" Again: which particular people are you referring to? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 221 #95 July 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteI take it you also went to private school? Yes. And My family sacrificed their time and energy to do that. my parents both took second jobs to allow for my sister and I to do that. While they paid their property tax apportionment for the public school system. Exactly. Even then - my family was doubling some of their duties as citizens. Where does the line get drawn? When does what I work for stop going to those that don't want to do for themselves. I'm not referring to those that CAN'T, rather those that WON'T, and those that return nothing back to the system they exploit.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 221 #96 July 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuote either way i dont see it as relevant to the question of weather or not obama is a socialist or not but i anwered it all the same Actually, I believe the question was " Why can't people just work for what they want?" Again: which particular people are you referring to? Generally, the ones that are not approved by me to gain anything by the money that I earn. More specifically, Illegal aliens draining the tax coffers, and not replenishing them. The people using up resorces in the way that they are funded for people that are here illegally. Less specifically those that soak up the money that I earn and am forced under the fear of penalties to surrender. I understand that infrastructure requires money, labor and supervision, but borders are borders, if you are in this country illegally, you should be expelled.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #97 July 4, 2009 Quote which would mean that socialists invented the atom bomb and took us to the moon You missed the "country" here. Like that, each country has prisons which are pretty ultimately socialistic - but it doesn't make the country socialistic. You just cannot run prisons or military in a different way. PS. Add Internet.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,317 #98 July 5, 2009 QuoteI'm not referring to those that CAN'T, rather those that WON'T, And that right there sums it up for me.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Krip 2 #99 July 5, 2009 Hi T Glad your back. One Jump Wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #100 July 6, 2009 Whatever happened to the time when, a person looking for a job, cleaned himself/herself up and met with a potential employer face to face? Pounding the pavement has turned to pounding the computer key-board. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 4 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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georgerussia 0 #78 July 3, 2009 Quote so that is true you didnt even put any if ands or buts onto you said that is true. so accepting that. whay should that not be the case in every society on the planet? Because every benefit comes with drawbacks. It was said here long time ago - healthcare could be high-quality, cheap and available - choose two. In your case it seems to be available and high-quality (is it?) but not quite cheap. Quote whats the downside to that though? i come from an upper income bracket tax group and i understand why there are people paying 41% of some of their income in taxes why cant other people? Because it discourages productivity. People do not have stimulus to work harder and make more money if they eventually have to give 60% of their earnings to the government. This means hard working smart people, who would like to work hard and make a lot of money will try to move out of Ireland (that's what is happening), but the people who would like to use free healthcare and pay little to no tax will move into Ireland (and this is happening as well - didn't you guys just voted for change in citizenship laws?) Well, why I'm even saying all that? You are seeing it yourself every day. Quotepersonally right now i probably know slightly more people who emigrated to the states compared to emigrate out of but thats cause im related to alot of them i know alot of people who emigrated to ireland Exactly. You have people who are leaving the country, who are working hard and making money. And you're having people who are coming into the country, to use its healthcare and government welfare. Not every of them, of course, but the numbers are large enough to be subject of public discussion everywhere in Ireland. Tell me I'm wrong!* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DARK 0 #79 July 3, 2009 Quote Because every benefit comes with drawbacks. It was said here long time ago - healthcare could be high-quality, cheap and available - choose two. In your case it seems to be available and high-quality (is it?) but not quite cheap. why should it be cheap? our system is not cheap it takes up alot of tax dollars. it is still worth it. running a country is not always about hiring the lowest bidder Quote Because it discourages productivity. People do not have stimulus to work harder and make more money if they eventually have to give 60% of their earnings to the government. This means hard working smart people, who would like to work hard and make a lot of money will try to move out of Ireland (that's what is happening), but the people who would like to use free healthcare and pay little to no tax will move into Ireland (and this is happening as well - didn't you guys just voted for change in citizenship laws?) Well, why I'm even saying all that? You are seeing it yourself every day.[/reply no it dosnt people give 41% not 60% not even if you include vat is it 60% i can tell you right now without a doubt that the people emigrating from ireland and those who have emigrated for the last 20 or 30 years are not our highest educated citizens far from it it has always been trades men that were the highest emigration demographic. as for the people emigrating to ireland from america. trust me we are not having any debate about weather or not to let american immigrants into the country it is not the social welfare seeking lower class of the states that is emigrating to ireland it is the distinclty middle class who even contemplate the possibility of visiting ireland not to mention emigrating to there that are moving to ireland also we dont want your workers we want your companies to employ OUR workers which is why we have one of the lowest corporation taxes in teh world and thats why there are hundreds of american companies based in ireland and those same taxes cover all our socialist benefits. your communist president is now trying to compete and bring back these capitalist industries. he is using his countries tax rates as a point of competition to encourage the companies to go back.. how can you say this is socialist it is the very definition of capitalism and competition QuoteYou have people who are leaving the country, who are working hard and making money. im sorry you are talking crap people dont leave their country because they are doing well even if the country they are leaving is america Quote And you're having people who are coming into the country, to use its healthcare and government welfare. to an extent we are now paying for having poorer countries in the eu but we would not have 25 years of the largest economic growth in the world without having cheaper labour emigrating to ireland. just like america would not be were it is today without having the huge number of emigrant irish going over to work construction cheaper. so now that we are poorer than we were why should forget about these people who helped us so much not even to mention the fact that without the eu we would be a 3rd world country so to chooose between being a 3rd world country and a technologically advanced 1st world country during a recession id choose the latter every time QuoteTell me I'm wrong! it depends what your talking about you implied you were talking about american emigrants and if you were than you are 100% wrong. if your talking about eastern europeans then you are back to the same debate as american has about the mexicans and canadians. neither of which has any bearing on the question of weather or not america right now is under a socialist goverment or not. i say its not Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #80 July 3, 2009 Quote why should it be cheap? our system is not cheap it takes up alot of tax dollars. Because if the system is expensive, and gets more and more participants, basically you will need to raise taxes each couple of years to cover the expansion. Quote people give 41% not 60% not even if you include vat is it 60% Of course I include VAT. You're paying it for everything except food. Even for services. Quote i can tell you right now without a doubt that the people emigrating from ireland and those who have emigrated for the last 20 or 30 years are not our highest educated citizens far from it it has always been trades men that were the highest emigration demographic. I didn't talk about highest educated citizens either. From my experience, "highest education" has no visible correlation with one's ability to make money. I talk about the people who work hard, make a lot of money, and pay back a lot in taxes. Quote as for the people emigrating to ireland from america. trust me we are not having any debate about weather or not to let american immigrants into the country it is not the social welfare seeking lower class of the states that is emigrating to ireland it is the distinclty middle class who even contemplate the possibility of visiting ireland not to mention emigrating to there that are moving to ireland We're talking about immigration, not visitors. The argument was that a lot of smart and hard working Irish people prefer US paid healthcare to Ireland free healthcare. And there is little to no migration into the opposite direction. This should prove something, right? Quote also we dont want your workers we want your companies to employ OUR workers which is why we have one of the lowest corporation taxes in teh world and thats why there are hundreds of american companies based in ireland and those same taxes cover all our socialist benefits. In past, yes - mostly during the boom peak. But according to my sources it's going down since 2005. We'll talk again in couple of years. Quote your communist president is now trying to compete and bring back these capitalist industries. Sorry to disappoint you, but not from Ireland. Look on the numbers. Ireland population is 4.5M people, which is roughly 1.75% of USA population, and even 2M less than just Bay Area alone. So even if ALL private industry jobs came from Ireland to USA (estimating 50%), it would only boost unemployment by less than 1%. Quote im sorry you are talking crap people dont leave their country because they are doing well even if the country they are leaving is america So are they leaving, or they are not leaving? I can't understand you. Quote to an extent we are now paying for having poorer countries in the eu but we would not have 25 years of the largest economic growth in the world without having cheaper labour emigrating to ireland. Largest economic growth, probably if you look on percentage. Or you compare to the countries of similar size?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DARK 0 #81 July 3, 2009 Quote Because if the system is expensive, and gets more and more participants, basically you will need to raise taxes each couple of years to cover the expansion. regardless of the initial price of the system if more and more people participate you need to spend more that is not an argument for anything accept common sense. if something costs 5 euro but you want 2 of them then you need to spend 10 euro. that dosnt mean what your buying is not worth it Quote Of course I include VAT. You're paying it for everything except food. Even for services. i didnt say dont include vat i said even if you include vat we dont pay 60% which you suggest so you were wrong. QuoteI didn't talk about highest educated citizens either. From my experience, "highest education" has no visible correlation with one's ability to make money. I talk about the people who work hard, make a lot of money, and pay back a lot in taxes. ok ill put it another way. people who work hard and earn alot of money in ireland are not emigrating to america. some of them are but as a rule.. certainly not QuoteWe're talking about immigration, not visitors. The argument was that a lot of smart and hard working Irish people prefer US paid healthcare to Ireland free healthcare. And there is little to no migration into the opposite direction. This should prove something, right? once again you completely missed my point. the people in america who are on welfare are NOT the ones who decide they want to emigrate from america to ireland. it dosnt matter how good our social welfare system is (first of all they are not entitled to any of it because they are not part of the eu) it is middle class 3rd level educated american citizens who see irelands lower crime rates free healthcare and free education as more important than living in the united states of america Quote In past, yes - mostly during the boom peak. But according to my sources it's going down since 2005. We'll talk again in couple of years. we will talk again and the same thing will be happening becaues we are a small export economy. we will be trying to keep your emigrants out and your companies in Quote Sorry to disappoint you, but not from Ireland. Look on the numbers. Ireland population is 4.5M people, which is roughly 1.75% of USA population, and even 2M less than just Bay Area alone. So even if ALL private industry jobs came from Ireland to USA (estimating 50%), it would only boost unemployment by less than 1%. sorry to dissapoint you but it has nothing to do with unemployment rates and everything to do with value for money for the companies and how much profit they can make in ireland and not pay tax on in america. obama desperately wants all this tax and employment to return to america whish is why ireland is ranked in the top 3 most beneficial countries to companies as far as corporate tax is concerned in the world along with switzerland and the caribean as far as i remember but the other two countries i mentioned could be wrong btw thats according to the us goverment in case your wondering Quote So are they leaving, or they are not leaving? I can't understand you. your argument is that well educated hard working people are leaving ireland because it sucks for them and that poorly educated social welfare leeches are leaving america to live in ireland because our social welfare system is better for them. im saying both assumptions are wrong because 1 the hard working wel educated can do way better in ireland relative to how they can do in the states and that the leeches you say are coming here have no way to get here and are not entitled to our social welfare system in the first place so why would they come? Quote Largest economic growth, probably if you look on percentage. Or you compare to the countries of similar size? of course you are scaling all the countries on the planet to a comparable size otherwise whats the point? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #82 July 3, 2009 Quote Quote Actually you do not pay one red cent to our nations Military. Well, he should. I think it's high time we collected reparations for all our uncompensated efforts in the last couple World Wars. i don't think you did anything in those wars tom - so stop claiming credit for something you had no hand in (meanwhile no charge for the use of the english language - you can carry on using it)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #83 July 3, 2009 Quote regardless of the initial price of the system if more and more people participate you need to spend more that is not an argument for anything accept common sense. This is not true if people who join the system are high-income earners, because they bring more into the system than they take from it. However when you have more and more poor people joining the system, this is exactly what happens. Quote i didnt say dont include vat i said even if you include vat we dont pay 60% which you suggest so you were wrong. According to this website the income tax in Ireland for low income is 20% and is 41% over 36KE. So I'm averaging 30% income for a high-earner. There is also 2% levy on the income below 75KE. Then there is PRSI, which is average 8%, so we're at 40% now. And of course there is 21.5% VAT giving us total 61.5%. Did I make anything wrong? Quote ok ill put it another way. people who work hard and earn alot of money in ireland are not emigrating to america. some of them are but as a rule.. certainly not Of course not all of them are, and not all of them can. The issue is that some do, and it should make you wonder why you see the migration that way, and not the opposite way considering "free" healthcare in Ireland. Quote once again you completely missed my point. the people in america who are on welfare are NOT the ones who decide they want to emigrate from america to ireland. I guess some would probably love to :) Quote we will talk again and the same thing will be happening becaues we are a small export economy. we will be trying to keep your emigrants out and your companies in Which failed so far, as I see. At least the news doesn't look good. Quote sorry to dissapoint you but it has nothing to do with unemployment rates and everything to do with value for money for the companies and how much profit they can make in ireland and not pay tax on in america. I don't understand your point. If the company doesn't need employees and just want to have low corporate taxes, there is a lot of Caribbean countries with low corporate tax - much lower than Ireland's 12.5%, which is not significantly lower than U.S. 15%. If the company needs quality workforce, the country with only 5M people provides relatively small pool of potential employees, making it more difficult and expensive to find and keep proper employees. Quote obama desperately wants all this tax and employment to return to america whish is why ireland is ranked in the top 3 most beneficial countries to companies as far as corporate tax is concerned in the world along with switzerland and the caribean as far as i remember but the other two countries i mentioned could be wrong Again, I think you overestimate the Ireland value to Obama. As I said before, we're talking about maximum 2.5mil jobs there, which is not even worth pursuing when you have countries like India or China. And I don't think there is a lot of Ireland-only companies who do not do business in USA (if they do, they have to pay tax here anyway), which are worth "returning". Quote btw thats according to the us goverment in case your wondering Could you please provide a relevant link to prove your point? Quote your argument is that well educated hard working people are leaving ireland because it sucks for them and that poorly educated social welfare leeches are leaving america to live in ireland because our social welfare system is better for them. That's pretty strange reading. I didn't say poorly educated social welfare leeches are leaving america to live in ireland, as they are not. However Ireland does have a lot of poor uneducated immigration - mostly from Eastern Europe and Middle East. Quote of course you are scaling all the countries on the planet to a comparable size otherwise whats the point? Because if you're comparing percents, then the economy which grew up from 10M to 30M would show up extreme 300% growth, while a larger country might grow up from 10B to 11B with 10% growth. However if you look on absolute numbers, the first economy grew 20M and the second one grew 1B, which is 50 times more. See?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #84 July 3, 2009 QuoteWhich people in particular? (Still hoping for an answer from Turtle, next time he logs on to this thread...) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,452 #85 July 3, 2009 QuoteI don't think that most people have problems working for what they WANT. It's working for what you NEED that is NO FUN. Being a RESPONSIBLE adult. Prioritizing needs and giving up the wants. That's where we as a society are failing. You don't need cable. You don't need Internet. You don't need a cell phone. But everybody WANTS them. And wants are displacing needs.Bingo. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DARK 0 #86 July 3, 2009 Quote This is not true if people who join the system are high-income earners, because they bring more into the system than they take from it. However when you have more and more poor people joining the system, this is exactly what happens. which is why you aim to have as small as possible a percentage of poor people. you will never eliminate poverty completely but you can come pretty close and that way almost everyone contributes QuoteDid I make anything wrong? yes, we do not pay the 21% out of our salaries along with prsi paye and the levies so i dont see how you can just affix it on to get to a 61% tax figure. Quote Of course not all of them are, and not all of them can. The issue is that some do, and it should make you wonder why you see the migration that way, and not the opposite way considering "free" healthcare in Ireland. well they wouldnt be entitled to it for one thing, until they have been here a certain time and paid taxes. Quote Which failed so far, as I see. At least the news doesn't look good. ye we have lost a lot of companies in the recession no doubt so all bets are off as to what might happen im talking about what has been happening and in the past we have a fairly good track record of attracting foreign business to come and employ our highly educated work force Quote I don't understand your point. If the company doesn't need employees and just want to have low corporate taxes, there is a lot of Caribbean countries with low corporate tax - much lower than Ireland's 12.5%, which is not significantly lower than U.S. 15%. If the company needs quality workforce, the country with only 5M people provides relatively small pool of potential employees, making it more difficult and expensive to find and keep proper employees. we tend to attract high technology high profit companies like intel for example. they cant just go to any tax haven and find the university educated workforce they need Quote Again, I think you overestimate the Ireland value to Obama. As I said before, we're talking about maximum 2.5mil jobs there, which is not even worth pursuing when you have countries like India or China. And I don't think there is a lot of Ireland-only companies who do not do business in USA (if they do, they have to pay tax here anyway), which are worth "returning". oh absolutely when i say obama is desperate to get these jobs backs i mean world wide not that he is jsut concentrating on ireland but we will be affected all the same Quote Could you please provide a relevant link to prove your point? this is the first one that popped up http://www.tribune.ie/business/news/article/2009/feb/01/tax-haven-ireland-on-obamas-hit-list/ Quote That's pretty strange reading. I didn't say poorly educated social welfare leeches are leaving america to live in ireland, as they are not. However Ireland does have a lot of poor uneducated immigration - mostly from Eastern Europe and Middle East. ye we did have during the boom years alright mostly polish but alot of them are leaving now that there are no jobs to be found. as i said already we needed this cheap workforce here to build our economy the last 20 years QuoteBecause if you're comparing percents, then the economy which grew up from 10M to 30M would show up extreme 300% growth, while a larger country might grow up from 10B to 11B with 10% growth. However if you look on absolute numbers, the first economy grew 20M and the second one grew 1B, which is 50 times more. See? of course i understand that but ireland has been consistently highly ranked as one of the top growing economies in the world for the last 20 years thats all i said i cant even remember why we are talking about ireland like this oh ye because i said that we have a national healthcare system and free 3rd level education and we are nowhere close to a socialist society........unless you disagree with this then what are we debating? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites redlegphi 0 #87 July 4, 2009 >You don't need cable. Agreed. >You don't need Internet. Agreed, though you probably do need some kind of access to internet from time to time if you're looking for a job. Public libraries tend to cover that need though. >You don't need a cell phone. Once again, if you're looking for a job, you need a phone number. If you can't afford a landline, a pay as you go cell phone can be a cheap way to make sure that your potential employer can call you back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #88 July 4, 2009 Quote yes, we do not pay the 21% out of our salaries along with prsi paye and the levies so i dont see how you can just affix it on to get to a 61% tax figure. Your employer pays PRSI, so it is your direct cost as employee to him. Those money are going to tax authorities instead of you, and therefore should be considered tax on you as it is. You ARE paying 21% VAT on basically everything except food and few articles/services, so it's pretty reasonable to consider it as well. Quote ye we have lost a lot of companies in the recession no doubt so all bets are off as to what might happen im talking about what has been happening and in the past we have a fairly good track record of attracting foreign business to come and employ our highly educated work force If you compare your fairly good track with India or China numbers, you'd see it yourself that Ireland is not a real concern in terms of attracting business. Quote we tend to attract high technology high profit companies like intel for example. they cant just go to any tax haven and find the university educated workforce they need C'mon, are you joking? You didn't "attract" Intel, it didn't move HQ there. It just opened an office in Ireland, and your corporate tax rate has nothing to do with it as it still pays most of its corporate taxes in US. Actually Intel has offices in India and China as well, and even in Russia (and probably in twenty more countries around the world), this is just a single drop in a rain. Quote oh absolutely when i say obama is desperate to get these jobs backs i mean world wide not that he is jsut concentrating on ireland but we will be affected all the same No, not the same. Just look on numbers. Quote this is the first one that popped up http://www.tribune.ie/business/news/article/2009/feb/01/tax-haven-ireland-on-obamas-hit-list/ "IRELAND has been included in a list of tax havens compiled by two key allies of US President Barack Obama" - so what is your point? You said about some government actions, and that's it??? Quote ye we did have during the boom years alright mostly polish but alot of them are leaving now that there are no jobs to be found. Most of them already have citizenship, so they aren't leaving anywhere and going to fully use the welfare system. And there is a lot of them - I even happen to know some of those people. Quote oh ye because i said that we have a national healthcare system and free 3rd level education and we are nowhere close to a socialist society........unless you disagree with this then what are we debating? What is "socialist society"? I define it as the more services the government provides for "free" and the more it taxes you, the more socialistic the country is. Therefore full socialism would mean 100% tax, and the government provides everything, from underwear to plane tickets. Of course it never happened, so we only could talk about relative, and comparing to USA you're definitely much closer.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #89 July 4, 2009 Quote What is "socialist society"? I define it as the more services the government provides for "free" and the more it taxes you, the more socialistic the country is. Therefore full socialism would mean 100% tax, and the government provides everything, from underwear to plane tickets. Of course it never happened, so we only could talk about relative, and comparing to USA you're definitely much closer. which would mean that socialists invented the atom bomb and took us to the moon (clever people)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #90 July 4, 2009 Also that socialism is responsible for every war ever fought by nation states (war mongers) -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,317 #91 July 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteI take it you also went to private school? Yes. And My family sacrificed their time and energy to do that. my parents both took second jobs to allow for my sister and I to do that. While they paid their property tax apportionment for the public school system.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Krip 2 #92 July 4, 2009 Quote Why do my taxes have to support them? Becaise everyone doesn't has the assets to have a Bernie Madoff in thier corner.One Jump Wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 221 #93 July 4, 2009 Quote either way i dont see it as relevant to the question of weather or not obama is a socialist or not but i anwered it all the same Actually, I believe the question was " Why can't people just work for what they want?"I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #94 July 4, 2009 QuoteQuote either way i dont see it as relevant to the question of weather or not obama is a socialist or not but i anwered it all the same Actually, I believe the question was " Why can't people just work for what they want?" Again: which particular people are you referring to? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 221 #95 July 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteI take it you also went to private school? Yes. And My family sacrificed their time and energy to do that. my parents both took second jobs to allow for my sister and I to do that. While they paid their property tax apportionment for the public school system. Exactly. Even then - my family was doubling some of their duties as citizens. Where does the line get drawn? When does what I work for stop going to those that don't want to do for themselves. I'm not referring to those that CAN'T, rather those that WON'T, and those that return nothing back to the system they exploit.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 221 #96 July 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuote either way i dont see it as relevant to the question of weather or not obama is a socialist or not but i anwered it all the same Actually, I believe the question was " Why can't people just work for what they want?" Again: which particular people are you referring to? Generally, the ones that are not approved by me to gain anything by the money that I earn. More specifically, Illegal aliens draining the tax coffers, and not replenishing them. The people using up resorces in the way that they are funded for people that are here illegally. Less specifically those that soak up the money that I earn and am forced under the fear of penalties to surrender. I understand that infrastructure requires money, labor and supervision, but borders are borders, if you are in this country illegally, you should be expelled.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #97 July 4, 2009 Quote which would mean that socialists invented the atom bomb and took us to the moon You missed the "country" here. Like that, each country has prisons which are pretty ultimately socialistic - but it doesn't make the country socialistic. You just cannot run prisons or military in a different way. PS. Add Internet.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,317 #98 July 5, 2009 QuoteI'm not referring to those that CAN'T, rather those that WON'T, And that right there sums it up for me.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Krip 2 #99 July 5, 2009 Hi T Glad your back. One Jump Wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #100 July 6, 2009 Whatever happened to the time when, a person looking for a job, cleaned himself/herself up and met with a potential employer face to face? Pounding the pavement has turned to pounding the computer key-board. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 4 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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georgerussia 0 #80 July 3, 2009 Quote why should it be cheap? our system is not cheap it takes up alot of tax dollars. Because if the system is expensive, and gets more and more participants, basically you will need to raise taxes each couple of years to cover the expansion. Quote people give 41% not 60% not even if you include vat is it 60% Of course I include VAT. You're paying it for everything except food. Even for services. Quote i can tell you right now without a doubt that the people emigrating from ireland and those who have emigrated for the last 20 or 30 years are not our highest educated citizens far from it it has always been trades men that were the highest emigration demographic. I didn't talk about highest educated citizens either. From my experience, "highest education" has no visible correlation with one's ability to make money. I talk about the people who work hard, make a lot of money, and pay back a lot in taxes. Quote as for the people emigrating to ireland from america. trust me we are not having any debate about weather or not to let american immigrants into the country it is not the social welfare seeking lower class of the states that is emigrating to ireland it is the distinclty middle class who even contemplate the possibility of visiting ireland not to mention emigrating to there that are moving to ireland We're talking about immigration, not visitors. The argument was that a lot of smart and hard working Irish people prefer US paid healthcare to Ireland free healthcare. And there is little to no migration into the opposite direction. This should prove something, right? Quote also we dont want your workers we want your companies to employ OUR workers which is why we have one of the lowest corporation taxes in teh world and thats why there are hundreds of american companies based in ireland and those same taxes cover all our socialist benefits. In past, yes - mostly during the boom peak. But according to my sources it's going down since 2005. We'll talk again in couple of years. Quote your communist president is now trying to compete and bring back these capitalist industries. Sorry to disappoint you, but not from Ireland. Look on the numbers. Ireland population is 4.5M people, which is roughly 1.75% of USA population, and even 2M less than just Bay Area alone. So even if ALL private industry jobs came from Ireland to USA (estimating 50%), it would only boost unemployment by less than 1%. Quote im sorry you are talking crap people dont leave their country because they are doing well even if the country they are leaving is america So are they leaving, or they are not leaving? I can't understand you. Quote to an extent we are now paying for having poorer countries in the eu but we would not have 25 years of the largest economic growth in the world without having cheaper labour emigrating to ireland. Largest economic growth, probably if you look on percentage. Or you compare to the countries of similar size?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DARK 0 #81 July 3, 2009 Quote Because if the system is expensive, and gets more and more participants, basically you will need to raise taxes each couple of years to cover the expansion. regardless of the initial price of the system if more and more people participate you need to spend more that is not an argument for anything accept common sense. if something costs 5 euro but you want 2 of them then you need to spend 10 euro. that dosnt mean what your buying is not worth it Quote Of course I include VAT. You're paying it for everything except food. Even for services. i didnt say dont include vat i said even if you include vat we dont pay 60% which you suggest so you were wrong. QuoteI didn't talk about highest educated citizens either. From my experience, "highest education" has no visible correlation with one's ability to make money. I talk about the people who work hard, make a lot of money, and pay back a lot in taxes. ok ill put it another way. people who work hard and earn alot of money in ireland are not emigrating to america. some of them are but as a rule.. certainly not QuoteWe're talking about immigration, not visitors. The argument was that a lot of smart and hard working Irish people prefer US paid healthcare to Ireland free healthcare. And there is little to no migration into the opposite direction. This should prove something, right? once again you completely missed my point. the people in america who are on welfare are NOT the ones who decide they want to emigrate from america to ireland. it dosnt matter how good our social welfare system is (first of all they are not entitled to any of it because they are not part of the eu) it is middle class 3rd level educated american citizens who see irelands lower crime rates free healthcare and free education as more important than living in the united states of america Quote In past, yes - mostly during the boom peak. But according to my sources it's going down since 2005. We'll talk again in couple of years. we will talk again and the same thing will be happening becaues we are a small export economy. we will be trying to keep your emigrants out and your companies in Quote Sorry to disappoint you, but not from Ireland. Look on the numbers. Ireland population is 4.5M people, which is roughly 1.75% of USA population, and even 2M less than just Bay Area alone. So even if ALL private industry jobs came from Ireland to USA (estimating 50%), it would only boost unemployment by less than 1%. sorry to dissapoint you but it has nothing to do with unemployment rates and everything to do with value for money for the companies and how much profit they can make in ireland and not pay tax on in america. obama desperately wants all this tax and employment to return to america whish is why ireland is ranked in the top 3 most beneficial countries to companies as far as corporate tax is concerned in the world along with switzerland and the caribean as far as i remember but the other two countries i mentioned could be wrong btw thats according to the us goverment in case your wondering Quote So are they leaving, or they are not leaving? I can't understand you. your argument is that well educated hard working people are leaving ireland because it sucks for them and that poorly educated social welfare leeches are leaving america to live in ireland because our social welfare system is better for them. im saying both assumptions are wrong because 1 the hard working wel educated can do way better in ireland relative to how they can do in the states and that the leeches you say are coming here have no way to get here and are not entitled to our social welfare system in the first place so why would they come? Quote Largest economic growth, probably if you look on percentage. Or you compare to the countries of similar size? of course you are scaling all the countries on the planet to a comparable size otherwise whats the point? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #82 July 3, 2009 Quote Quote Actually you do not pay one red cent to our nations Military. Well, he should. I think it's high time we collected reparations for all our uncompensated efforts in the last couple World Wars. i don't think you did anything in those wars tom - so stop claiming credit for something you had no hand in (meanwhile no charge for the use of the english language - you can carry on using it)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #83 July 3, 2009 Quote regardless of the initial price of the system if more and more people participate you need to spend more that is not an argument for anything accept common sense. This is not true if people who join the system are high-income earners, because they bring more into the system than they take from it. However when you have more and more poor people joining the system, this is exactly what happens. Quote i didnt say dont include vat i said even if you include vat we dont pay 60% which you suggest so you were wrong. According to this website the income tax in Ireland for low income is 20% and is 41% over 36KE. So I'm averaging 30% income for a high-earner. There is also 2% levy on the income below 75KE. Then there is PRSI, which is average 8%, so we're at 40% now. And of course there is 21.5% VAT giving us total 61.5%. Did I make anything wrong? Quote ok ill put it another way. people who work hard and earn alot of money in ireland are not emigrating to america. some of them are but as a rule.. certainly not Of course not all of them are, and not all of them can. The issue is that some do, and it should make you wonder why you see the migration that way, and not the opposite way considering "free" healthcare in Ireland. Quote once again you completely missed my point. the people in america who are on welfare are NOT the ones who decide they want to emigrate from america to ireland. I guess some would probably love to :) Quote we will talk again and the same thing will be happening becaues we are a small export economy. we will be trying to keep your emigrants out and your companies in Which failed so far, as I see. At least the news doesn't look good. Quote sorry to dissapoint you but it has nothing to do with unemployment rates and everything to do with value for money for the companies and how much profit they can make in ireland and not pay tax on in america. I don't understand your point. If the company doesn't need employees and just want to have low corporate taxes, there is a lot of Caribbean countries with low corporate tax - much lower than Ireland's 12.5%, which is not significantly lower than U.S. 15%. If the company needs quality workforce, the country with only 5M people provides relatively small pool of potential employees, making it more difficult and expensive to find and keep proper employees. Quote obama desperately wants all this tax and employment to return to america whish is why ireland is ranked in the top 3 most beneficial countries to companies as far as corporate tax is concerned in the world along with switzerland and the caribean as far as i remember but the other two countries i mentioned could be wrong Again, I think you overestimate the Ireland value to Obama. As I said before, we're talking about maximum 2.5mil jobs there, which is not even worth pursuing when you have countries like India or China. And I don't think there is a lot of Ireland-only companies who do not do business in USA (if they do, they have to pay tax here anyway), which are worth "returning". Quote btw thats according to the us goverment in case your wondering Could you please provide a relevant link to prove your point? Quote your argument is that well educated hard working people are leaving ireland because it sucks for them and that poorly educated social welfare leeches are leaving america to live in ireland because our social welfare system is better for them. That's pretty strange reading. I didn't say poorly educated social welfare leeches are leaving america to live in ireland, as they are not. However Ireland does have a lot of poor uneducated immigration - mostly from Eastern Europe and Middle East. Quote of course you are scaling all the countries on the planet to a comparable size otherwise whats the point? Because if you're comparing percents, then the economy which grew up from 10M to 30M would show up extreme 300% growth, while a larger country might grow up from 10B to 11B with 10% growth. However if you look on absolute numbers, the first economy grew 20M and the second one grew 1B, which is 50 times more. See?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #84 July 3, 2009 QuoteWhich people in particular? (Still hoping for an answer from Turtle, next time he logs on to this thread...) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,452 #85 July 3, 2009 QuoteI don't think that most people have problems working for what they WANT. It's working for what you NEED that is NO FUN. Being a RESPONSIBLE adult. Prioritizing needs and giving up the wants. That's where we as a society are failing. You don't need cable. You don't need Internet. You don't need a cell phone. But everybody WANTS them. And wants are displacing needs.Bingo. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DARK 0 #86 July 3, 2009 Quote This is not true if people who join the system are high-income earners, because they bring more into the system than they take from it. However when you have more and more poor people joining the system, this is exactly what happens. which is why you aim to have as small as possible a percentage of poor people. you will never eliminate poverty completely but you can come pretty close and that way almost everyone contributes QuoteDid I make anything wrong? yes, we do not pay the 21% out of our salaries along with prsi paye and the levies so i dont see how you can just affix it on to get to a 61% tax figure. Quote Of course not all of them are, and not all of them can. The issue is that some do, and it should make you wonder why you see the migration that way, and not the opposite way considering "free" healthcare in Ireland. well they wouldnt be entitled to it for one thing, until they have been here a certain time and paid taxes. Quote Which failed so far, as I see. At least the news doesn't look good. ye we have lost a lot of companies in the recession no doubt so all bets are off as to what might happen im talking about what has been happening and in the past we have a fairly good track record of attracting foreign business to come and employ our highly educated work force Quote I don't understand your point. If the company doesn't need employees and just want to have low corporate taxes, there is a lot of Caribbean countries with low corporate tax - much lower than Ireland's 12.5%, which is not significantly lower than U.S. 15%. If the company needs quality workforce, the country with only 5M people provides relatively small pool of potential employees, making it more difficult and expensive to find and keep proper employees. we tend to attract high technology high profit companies like intel for example. they cant just go to any tax haven and find the university educated workforce they need Quote Again, I think you overestimate the Ireland value to Obama. As I said before, we're talking about maximum 2.5mil jobs there, which is not even worth pursuing when you have countries like India or China. And I don't think there is a lot of Ireland-only companies who do not do business in USA (if they do, they have to pay tax here anyway), which are worth "returning". oh absolutely when i say obama is desperate to get these jobs backs i mean world wide not that he is jsut concentrating on ireland but we will be affected all the same Quote Could you please provide a relevant link to prove your point? this is the first one that popped up http://www.tribune.ie/business/news/article/2009/feb/01/tax-haven-ireland-on-obamas-hit-list/ Quote That's pretty strange reading. I didn't say poorly educated social welfare leeches are leaving america to live in ireland, as they are not. However Ireland does have a lot of poor uneducated immigration - mostly from Eastern Europe and Middle East. ye we did have during the boom years alright mostly polish but alot of them are leaving now that there are no jobs to be found. as i said already we needed this cheap workforce here to build our economy the last 20 years QuoteBecause if you're comparing percents, then the economy which grew up from 10M to 30M would show up extreme 300% growth, while a larger country might grow up from 10B to 11B with 10% growth. However if you look on absolute numbers, the first economy grew 20M and the second one grew 1B, which is 50 times more. See? of course i understand that but ireland has been consistently highly ranked as one of the top growing economies in the world for the last 20 years thats all i said i cant even remember why we are talking about ireland like this oh ye because i said that we have a national healthcare system and free 3rd level education and we are nowhere close to a socialist society........unless you disagree with this then what are we debating? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites redlegphi 0 #87 July 4, 2009 >You don't need cable. Agreed. >You don't need Internet. Agreed, though you probably do need some kind of access to internet from time to time if you're looking for a job. Public libraries tend to cover that need though. >You don't need a cell phone. Once again, if you're looking for a job, you need a phone number. If you can't afford a landline, a pay as you go cell phone can be a cheap way to make sure that your potential employer can call you back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #88 July 4, 2009 Quote yes, we do not pay the 21% out of our salaries along with prsi paye and the levies so i dont see how you can just affix it on to get to a 61% tax figure. Your employer pays PRSI, so it is your direct cost as employee to him. Those money are going to tax authorities instead of you, and therefore should be considered tax on you as it is. You ARE paying 21% VAT on basically everything except food and few articles/services, so it's pretty reasonable to consider it as well. Quote ye we have lost a lot of companies in the recession no doubt so all bets are off as to what might happen im talking about what has been happening and in the past we have a fairly good track record of attracting foreign business to come and employ our highly educated work force If you compare your fairly good track with India or China numbers, you'd see it yourself that Ireland is not a real concern in terms of attracting business. Quote we tend to attract high technology high profit companies like intel for example. they cant just go to any tax haven and find the university educated workforce they need C'mon, are you joking? You didn't "attract" Intel, it didn't move HQ there. It just opened an office in Ireland, and your corporate tax rate has nothing to do with it as it still pays most of its corporate taxes in US. Actually Intel has offices in India and China as well, and even in Russia (and probably in twenty more countries around the world), this is just a single drop in a rain. Quote oh absolutely when i say obama is desperate to get these jobs backs i mean world wide not that he is jsut concentrating on ireland but we will be affected all the same No, not the same. Just look on numbers. Quote this is the first one that popped up http://www.tribune.ie/business/news/article/2009/feb/01/tax-haven-ireland-on-obamas-hit-list/ "IRELAND has been included in a list of tax havens compiled by two key allies of US President Barack Obama" - so what is your point? You said about some government actions, and that's it??? Quote ye we did have during the boom years alright mostly polish but alot of them are leaving now that there are no jobs to be found. Most of them already have citizenship, so they aren't leaving anywhere and going to fully use the welfare system. And there is a lot of them - I even happen to know some of those people. Quote oh ye because i said that we have a national healthcare system and free 3rd level education and we are nowhere close to a socialist society........unless you disagree with this then what are we debating? What is "socialist society"? I define it as the more services the government provides for "free" and the more it taxes you, the more socialistic the country is. Therefore full socialism would mean 100% tax, and the government provides everything, from underwear to plane tickets. Of course it never happened, so we only could talk about relative, and comparing to USA you're definitely much closer.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #89 July 4, 2009 Quote What is "socialist society"? I define it as the more services the government provides for "free" and the more it taxes you, the more socialistic the country is. Therefore full socialism would mean 100% tax, and the government provides everything, from underwear to plane tickets. Of course it never happened, so we only could talk about relative, and comparing to USA you're definitely much closer. which would mean that socialists invented the atom bomb and took us to the moon (clever people)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #90 July 4, 2009 Also that socialism is responsible for every war ever fought by nation states (war mongers) -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,317 #91 July 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteI take it you also went to private school? Yes. And My family sacrificed their time and energy to do that. my parents both took second jobs to allow for my sister and I to do that. While they paid their property tax apportionment for the public school system.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Krip 2 #92 July 4, 2009 Quote Why do my taxes have to support them? Becaise everyone doesn't has the assets to have a Bernie Madoff in thier corner.One Jump Wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 221 #93 July 4, 2009 Quote either way i dont see it as relevant to the question of weather or not obama is a socialist or not but i anwered it all the same Actually, I believe the question was " Why can't people just work for what they want?"I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #94 July 4, 2009 QuoteQuote either way i dont see it as relevant to the question of weather or not obama is a socialist or not but i anwered it all the same Actually, I believe the question was " Why can't people just work for what they want?" Again: which particular people are you referring to? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 221 #95 July 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteI take it you also went to private school? Yes. And My family sacrificed their time and energy to do that. my parents both took second jobs to allow for my sister and I to do that. While they paid their property tax apportionment for the public school system. Exactly. Even then - my family was doubling some of their duties as citizens. Where does the line get drawn? When does what I work for stop going to those that don't want to do for themselves. I'm not referring to those that CAN'T, rather those that WON'T, and those that return nothing back to the system they exploit.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 221 #96 July 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuote either way i dont see it as relevant to the question of weather or not obama is a socialist or not but i anwered it all the same Actually, I believe the question was " Why can't people just work for what they want?" Again: which particular people are you referring to? Generally, the ones that are not approved by me to gain anything by the money that I earn. More specifically, Illegal aliens draining the tax coffers, and not replenishing them. The people using up resorces in the way that they are funded for people that are here illegally. Less specifically those that soak up the money that I earn and am forced under the fear of penalties to surrender. I understand that infrastructure requires money, labor and supervision, but borders are borders, if you are in this country illegally, you should be expelled.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #97 July 4, 2009 Quote which would mean that socialists invented the atom bomb and took us to the moon You missed the "country" here. Like that, each country has prisons which are pretty ultimately socialistic - but it doesn't make the country socialistic. You just cannot run prisons or military in a different way. PS. Add Internet.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,317 #98 July 5, 2009 QuoteI'm not referring to those that CAN'T, rather those that WON'T, And that right there sums it up for me.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Krip 2 #99 July 5, 2009 Hi T Glad your back. One Jump Wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #100 July 6, 2009 Whatever happened to the time when, a person looking for a job, cleaned himself/herself up and met with a potential employer face to face? Pounding the pavement has turned to pounding the computer key-board. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 4 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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dreamdancer 0 #82 July 3, 2009 Quote Quote Actually you do not pay one red cent to our nations Military. Well, he should. I think it's high time we collected reparations for all our uncompensated efforts in the last couple World Wars. i don't think you did anything in those wars tom - so stop claiming credit for something you had no hand in (meanwhile no charge for the use of the english language - you can carry on using it)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #83 July 3, 2009 Quote regardless of the initial price of the system if more and more people participate you need to spend more that is not an argument for anything accept common sense. This is not true if people who join the system are high-income earners, because they bring more into the system than they take from it. However when you have more and more poor people joining the system, this is exactly what happens. Quote i didnt say dont include vat i said even if you include vat we dont pay 60% which you suggest so you were wrong. According to this website the income tax in Ireland for low income is 20% and is 41% over 36KE. So I'm averaging 30% income for a high-earner. There is also 2% levy on the income below 75KE. Then there is PRSI, which is average 8%, so we're at 40% now. And of course there is 21.5% VAT giving us total 61.5%. Did I make anything wrong? Quote ok ill put it another way. people who work hard and earn alot of money in ireland are not emigrating to america. some of them are but as a rule.. certainly not Of course not all of them are, and not all of them can. The issue is that some do, and it should make you wonder why you see the migration that way, and not the opposite way considering "free" healthcare in Ireland. Quote once again you completely missed my point. the people in america who are on welfare are NOT the ones who decide they want to emigrate from america to ireland. I guess some would probably love to :) Quote we will talk again and the same thing will be happening becaues we are a small export economy. we will be trying to keep your emigrants out and your companies in Which failed so far, as I see. At least the news doesn't look good. Quote sorry to dissapoint you but it has nothing to do with unemployment rates and everything to do with value for money for the companies and how much profit they can make in ireland and not pay tax on in america. I don't understand your point. If the company doesn't need employees and just want to have low corporate taxes, there is a lot of Caribbean countries with low corporate tax - much lower than Ireland's 12.5%, which is not significantly lower than U.S. 15%. If the company needs quality workforce, the country with only 5M people provides relatively small pool of potential employees, making it more difficult and expensive to find and keep proper employees. Quote obama desperately wants all this tax and employment to return to america whish is why ireland is ranked in the top 3 most beneficial countries to companies as far as corporate tax is concerned in the world along with switzerland and the caribean as far as i remember but the other two countries i mentioned could be wrong Again, I think you overestimate the Ireland value to Obama. As I said before, we're talking about maximum 2.5mil jobs there, which is not even worth pursuing when you have countries like India or China. And I don't think there is a lot of Ireland-only companies who do not do business in USA (if they do, they have to pay tax here anyway), which are worth "returning". Quote btw thats according to the us goverment in case your wondering Could you please provide a relevant link to prove your point? Quote your argument is that well educated hard working people are leaving ireland because it sucks for them and that poorly educated social welfare leeches are leaving america to live in ireland because our social welfare system is better for them. That's pretty strange reading. I didn't say poorly educated social welfare leeches are leaving america to live in ireland, as they are not. However Ireland does have a lot of poor uneducated immigration - mostly from Eastern Europe and Middle East. Quote of course you are scaling all the countries on the planet to a comparable size otherwise whats the point? Because if you're comparing percents, then the economy which grew up from 10M to 30M would show up extreme 300% growth, while a larger country might grow up from 10B to 11B with 10% growth. However if you look on absolute numbers, the first economy grew 20M and the second one grew 1B, which is 50 times more. See?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #84 July 3, 2009 QuoteWhich people in particular? (Still hoping for an answer from Turtle, next time he logs on to this thread...) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,452 #85 July 3, 2009 QuoteI don't think that most people have problems working for what they WANT. It's working for what you NEED that is NO FUN. Being a RESPONSIBLE adult. Prioritizing needs and giving up the wants. That's where we as a society are failing. You don't need cable. You don't need Internet. You don't need a cell phone. But everybody WANTS them. And wants are displacing needs.Bingo. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DARK 0 #86 July 3, 2009 Quote This is not true if people who join the system are high-income earners, because they bring more into the system than they take from it. However when you have more and more poor people joining the system, this is exactly what happens. which is why you aim to have as small as possible a percentage of poor people. you will never eliminate poverty completely but you can come pretty close and that way almost everyone contributes QuoteDid I make anything wrong? yes, we do not pay the 21% out of our salaries along with prsi paye and the levies so i dont see how you can just affix it on to get to a 61% tax figure. Quote Of course not all of them are, and not all of them can. The issue is that some do, and it should make you wonder why you see the migration that way, and not the opposite way considering "free" healthcare in Ireland. well they wouldnt be entitled to it for one thing, until they have been here a certain time and paid taxes. Quote Which failed so far, as I see. At least the news doesn't look good. ye we have lost a lot of companies in the recession no doubt so all bets are off as to what might happen im talking about what has been happening and in the past we have a fairly good track record of attracting foreign business to come and employ our highly educated work force Quote I don't understand your point. If the company doesn't need employees and just want to have low corporate taxes, there is a lot of Caribbean countries with low corporate tax - much lower than Ireland's 12.5%, which is not significantly lower than U.S. 15%. If the company needs quality workforce, the country with only 5M people provides relatively small pool of potential employees, making it more difficult and expensive to find and keep proper employees. we tend to attract high technology high profit companies like intel for example. they cant just go to any tax haven and find the university educated workforce they need Quote Again, I think you overestimate the Ireland value to Obama. As I said before, we're talking about maximum 2.5mil jobs there, which is not even worth pursuing when you have countries like India or China. And I don't think there is a lot of Ireland-only companies who do not do business in USA (if they do, they have to pay tax here anyway), which are worth "returning". oh absolutely when i say obama is desperate to get these jobs backs i mean world wide not that he is jsut concentrating on ireland but we will be affected all the same Quote Could you please provide a relevant link to prove your point? this is the first one that popped up http://www.tribune.ie/business/news/article/2009/feb/01/tax-haven-ireland-on-obamas-hit-list/ Quote That's pretty strange reading. I didn't say poorly educated social welfare leeches are leaving america to live in ireland, as they are not. However Ireland does have a lot of poor uneducated immigration - mostly from Eastern Europe and Middle East. ye we did have during the boom years alright mostly polish but alot of them are leaving now that there are no jobs to be found. as i said already we needed this cheap workforce here to build our economy the last 20 years QuoteBecause if you're comparing percents, then the economy which grew up from 10M to 30M would show up extreme 300% growth, while a larger country might grow up from 10B to 11B with 10% growth. However if you look on absolute numbers, the first economy grew 20M and the second one grew 1B, which is 50 times more. See? of course i understand that but ireland has been consistently highly ranked as one of the top growing economies in the world for the last 20 years thats all i said i cant even remember why we are talking about ireland like this oh ye because i said that we have a national healthcare system and free 3rd level education and we are nowhere close to a socialist society........unless you disagree with this then what are we debating? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redlegphi 0 #87 July 4, 2009 >You don't need cable. Agreed. >You don't need Internet. Agreed, though you probably do need some kind of access to internet from time to time if you're looking for a job. Public libraries tend to cover that need though. >You don't need a cell phone. Once again, if you're looking for a job, you need a phone number. If you can't afford a landline, a pay as you go cell phone can be a cheap way to make sure that your potential employer can call you back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #88 July 4, 2009 Quote yes, we do not pay the 21% out of our salaries along with prsi paye and the levies so i dont see how you can just affix it on to get to a 61% tax figure. Your employer pays PRSI, so it is your direct cost as employee to him. Those money are going to tax authorities instead of you, and therefore should be considered tax on you as it is. You ARE paying 21% VAT on basically everything except food and few articles/services, so it's pretty reasonable to consider it as well. Quote ye we have lost a lot of companies in the recession no doubt so all bets are off as to what might happen im talking about what has been happening and in the past we have a fairly good track record of attracting foreign business to come and employ our highly educated work force If you compare your fairly good track with India or China numbers, you'd see it yourself that Ireland is not a real concern in terms of attracting business. Quote we tend to attract high technology high profit companies like intel for example. they cant just go to any tax haven and find the university educated workforce they need C'mon, are you joking? You didn't "attract" Intel, it didn't move HQ there. It just opened an office in Ireland, and your corporate tax rate has nothing to do with it as it still pays most of its corporate taxes in US. Actually Intel has offices in India and China as well, and even in Russia (and probably in twenty more countries around the world), this is just a single drop in a rain. Quote oh absolutely when i say obama is desperate to get these jobs backs i mean world wide not that he is jsut concentrating on ireland but we will be affected all the same No, not the same. Just look on numbers. Quote this is the first one that popped up http://www.tribune.ie/business/news/article/2009/feb/01/tax-haven-ireland-on-obamas-hit-list/ "IRELAND has been included in a list of tax havens compiled by two key allies of US President Barack Obama" - so what is your point? You said about some government actions, and that's it??? Quote ye we did have during the boom years alright mostly polish but alot of them are leaving now that there are no jobs to be found. Most of them already have citizenship, so they aren't leaving anywhere and going to fully use the welfare system. And there is a lot of them - I even happen to know some of those people. Quote oh ye because i said that we have a national healthcare system and free 3rd level education and we are nowhere close to a socialist society........unless you disagree with this then what are we debating? What is "socialist society"? I define it as the more services the government provides for "free" and the more it taxes you, the more socialistic the country is. Therefore full socialism would mean 100% tax, and the government provides everything, from underwear to plane tickets. Of course it never happened, so we only could talk about relative, and comparing to USA you're definitely much closer.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #89 July 4, 2009 Quote What is "socialist society"? I define it as the more services the government provides for "free" and the more it taxes you, the more socialistic the country is. Therefore full socialism would mean 100% tax, and the government provides everything, from underwear to plane tickets. Of course it never happened, so we only could talk about relative, and comparing to USA you're definitely much closer. which would mean that socialists invented the atom bomb and took us to the moon (clever people)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #90 July 4, 2009 Also that socialism is responsible for every war ever fought by nation states (war mongers) -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,317 #91 July 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteI take it you also went to private school? Yes. And My family sacrificed their time and energy to do that. my parents both took second jobs to allow for my sister and I to do that. While they paid their property tax apportionment for the public school system.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krip 2 #92 July 4, 2009 Quote Why do my taxes have to support them? Becaise everyone doesn't has the assets to have a Bernie Madoff in thier corner.One Jump Wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #93 July 4, 2009 Quote either way i dont see it as relevant to the question of weather or not obama is a socialist or not but i anwered it all the same Actually, I believe the question was " Why can't people just work for what they want?"I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #94 July 4, 2009 QuoteQuote either way i dont see it as relevant to the question of weather or not obama is a socialist or not but i anwered it all the same Actually, I believe the question was " Why can't people just work for what they want?" Again: which particular people are you referring to? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #95 July 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteI take it you also went to private school? Yes. And My family sacrificed their time and energy to do that. my parents both took second jobs to allow for my sister and I to do that. While they paid their property tax apportionment for the public school system. Exactly. Even then - my family was doubling some of their duties as citizens. Where does the line get drawn? When does what I work for stop going to those that don't want to do for themselves. I'm not referring to those that CAN'T, rather those that WON'T, and those that return nothing back to the system they exploit.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #96 July 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuote either way i dont see it as relevant to the question of weather or not obama is a socialist or not but i anwered it all the same Actually, I believe the question was " Why can't people just work for what they want?" Again: which particular people are you referring to? Generally, the ones that are not approved by me to gain anything by the money that I earn. More specifically, Illegal aliens draining the tax coffers, and not replenishing them. The people using up resorces in the way that they are funded for people that are here illegally. Less specifically those that soak up the money that I earn and am forced under the fear of penalties to surrender. I understand that infrastructure requires money, labor and supervision, but borders are borders, if you are in this country illegally, you should be expelled.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #97 July 4, 2009 Quote which would mean that socialists invented the atom bomb and took us to the moon You missed the "country" here. Like that, each country has prisons which are pretty ultimately socialistic - but it doesn't make the country socialistic. You just cannot run prisons or military in a different way. PS. Add Internet.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,317 #98 July 5, 2009 QuoteI'm not referring to those that CAN'T, rather those that WON'T, And that right there sums it up for me.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krip 2 #99 July 5, 2009 Hi T Glad your back. One Jump Wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #100 July 6, 2009 Whatever happened to the time when, a person looking for a job, cleaned himself/herself up and met with a potential employer face to face? Pounding the pavement has turned to pounding the computer key-board. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
