Andy9o8 2 #26 July 3, 2009 QuoteThe major question I've got is how to do that without greatly enlarging the bureaucratic burden. Semi-seriously: Let's say the bureaucracy is greatly enlarged. Wouldn't that help the economy by creating jobs? FDR's myriad public works projects are some historical cases in point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #27 July 3, 2009 >The major question I've got is how to do that without greatly enlarging >the bureaucratic burden. Definitely an issue. I would point out, though, that we currently spend $400 billion a year on medical bureaucracy. I would think that having a level of care where a dozen forms were not required - because everyone qualified, without checking or filing anything - would improve things (if done well, of course.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #28 July 3, 2009 Quote Semi-seriously: Let's say the bureaucracy is greatly enlarged. Wouldn't that help the economy by creating jobs? FDR's myriad public works projects are some historical cases in point. I could argue FDR stuff ad infinitum. But I won't. Adding bureaucracy to complete the same task is bad for the economy. Otherwise, we'd want to smash all those new fangled machines and go back to planting crops by hand with sticks. Imagine all the jobs we'd create if we outlawed tractors! -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #29 July 3, 2009 QuoteI would think that having a level of care where a dozen forms were not required - because everyone qualified, without checking or filing anything - would improve things (if done well, of course.) Does such a system exist anywhere in the world? Even the most socialist nations I've visited tried to recover costs from international visitors. It's a serious question. Is there an example we could look at to check such a thing out?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #30 July 3, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteBill wants basic emergency care provided by the government Already happening. Yes. I guess what I should have said is "Bill wants a different system of paying for emergency care, wherein the taxpayers generally would get stuck with the bill, rather than shafting whichever ER happened to provide the care with an unpaid account. I can admit ithat I find Bill's solution preferable to the havoc EMTALA has wrought. After 23 years it would become a funded mandate. Still, I would have preferred no mandate. But I guess getting paid a government wage is better than nothing. And if the government wants to drive down costs, the quickest way to do it is to put a price cap on it. We saw this with fuel prices in the 70's, where it was rationed and people waited in lines for gasoline. Another way to do it is to go in and undercut everybody else. Robber Barons knew that they could sell their products below cost, drive others out of business, and then raise the price. Antitrust laws were put inti place to prevent this, excluding the government and unions (and baseball) from compliance. Hmm. Robber Barons merely created less expensive options... My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surfbum5412 0 #31 July 3, 2009 QuoteQuote>We don't need to change a thing, then - we already have that >via EMTALA/Medicaid/Medicare and private insurance. Sort of. But we "pay" for it now by forcing hospitals to go bankrupt, insurance premiums to go up and doctors to be unable to practice. The basic concept is there; it just needs to be moved from an unofficial clusterfuck to a more official slightly-less-of-a-clusterfuck I don't disagree with your statement, but I'd like to see fed.gov fix Medicare/Medicaid FIRST, before (in basis) expanding it to the rest of us. Thank you thank you thank you!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #32 July 3, 2009 QuoteAnother way to do it is to go in and undercut everybody else. Robber Barons knew that they could sell their products below cost, drive others out of business, and then raise the price. Antitrust laws were put inti place to prevent this... Robber Barons did it with their own money. They didn't ask for a trillion dollar government subsidy to do it.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
makeithappen40 0 #33 July 4, 2009 I have used VA benefits (aka "socialized medicine") SEVERAL times. (Broken arm, broken shoulder, dislocated shoulder, dog bite, resperatory illness, orthopaedic surgery, checkups, etc.) Those would all be cases, with the exception of the checkups, that would be considered things you would want to see a doctor for immediately. (Oh-and I did. My orthopaedic surgery was the day after my accident, only delayed because the facility [which is primarily a private care facility] had a line that required me to wait 16 hours to get into surgery. So much for being a champion of private health care...) And I have only been stuck with Copays AND managed to see a doctor of my own choosing AND went to Prespbyterian hospital (or) to Lovelace for each and every one of those visits mentioned above. I got the service that you would expect at a private health care facility... well... because they are private facilities. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyChimp 0 #34 November 10, 2009 I can't believe the House rammed this health care bill right thru the House floor with a last minute vote after Pelosi promised it would be posted online for review for 3 days. Another broken promise from Washington..... Does anyone else find it funny that we made a SPORT out of an EMERGENCY PROCEDURE?!?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #35 November 10, 2009 QuoteI can't believe the House rammed this health care bill right thru the House floor with a last minute vote after Pelosi promised it would be posted online for review for 3 days. Another broken promise from Washington..... and you expected anything less? Lying and spending money has always been the way in washington, but now the left has increased both exponentially. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #36 November 10, 2009 Quote Quote I can't believe the House rammed this health care bill right thru the House floor with a last minute vote after Pelosi promised it would be posted online for review for 3 days. Another broken promise from Washington..... and you expected anything less? Lying and spending money has always been the way in washington, but now the left has increased both exponentially. You have not been paying attention since 1980 have you....24 years of VOODOO economics have taken this country from a deficit of about 800 BILLION dollars under Carter to 11 TRILLION dollars under the runaway spending of the Teabagging Party of NO, Want to tell me again how you values voters are for fiscal responsibility, family values, and small government? Yall have done nothing but the opposite of what you supposedly stand for as good "conservatives" I think all of the dead enders need to be shoved back into school for some EDUCATION.. since there is no point reeducating people who did not bother getting an education in the first place. Maybe this time partying will be less important Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #37 November 10, 2009 Quote I think all of the dead enders need to be shoved back into school for some EDUCATION.. since there is no point reeducating people who did not bother getting an education in the first place. Maybe this time partying will be less important Guess Arne should've held off on some of those political rallies that he sent the school kids to, huh?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SivaGanesha 2 #38 November 10, 2009 QuoteThere's No Such Thing as Free Health Care The costly truth about Canada's health care system John Stossel | July 2, 2009 President Obama says government will make health care cheaper and better. But there's no free lunch. In England, health care is "free"—as long as you don't mind waiting. People wait so long for dentist appointments that some pull their own teeth. At any one time, half a million people are waiting to get into a British hospital. A British paper reports that one hospital tried to save money by not changing bedsheets. Instead of washing sheets, the staff was encouraged to just turn them over. more... http://reason.com/news/show/134553.html I'm generally a believer in the free market but for some reason the market isn't working as well with regard to health care as it works in most other industries. The biggest problem is that the health insurance industry is so closely tied to people's employment. I don't know why the free market has produced that result in health care when it hasn't done so in any other market--but that is what has happened. It complicates things--especially in the USA where people change jobs much more often than in other countries and very especially during times of high unemployment. If I want to change the parameters of my health insurance, I need to go to my boss. This, with all due respect to my boss, is a nonsensical situation. My boss isn't a doctor, he isn't a nurse, he isn't an insurance salesman. It makes little sense that he is so closely involved in important health care decisions. If I want to buy a car--or even buy auto insurance--my boss will at most have a very limited role of verifying my income for the purposes of qualifying for a loan. The whole thing strikes me as a holdover from a very different past where the notion of "employer as parent" made sense and tying one's health insurance to one's lifetime employment was probably a reasonable idea. But those days are long gone. In the health care industry, the free market hasn't changed with the times. Again--this is an unusual result because usually the free market does change with the times. For some reason it hasn't when it comes to health insurance. The unwillingness of this particular industry to innovate has left them vulnerable to government intervention. Usually if someone were to ask me who would innovate better--the government or private industry--the answer would be obvious--private industry. But when it comes to health insurance, I'm not so sure--they seem very stuck in their thinking and unable to come up with insurance products that work for people."It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #39 November 10, 2009 Quote Quote I think all of the dead enders need to be shoved back into school for some EDUCATION.. since there is no point reeducating people who did not bother getting an education in the first place. Maybe this time partying will be less important Guess Arne should've held off on some of those political rallies that he sent the school kids to, huh? Well there are those out there incapable of learning.... we usually find them on the short bus. WOW... now there is a good growth industry.. buy a lot of short busses since there are so many of the children who were left behind, to transport them to adult education classes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #40 November 10, 2009 Quote The biggest problem is that the health insurance industry is so closely tied to people's employment. I don't know why the free market has produced that result in health care when it hasn't done so in any other market--but that is what has happened. It complicates things--especially in the USA where people change jobs much more often than in other countries and very especially during times of high unemployment. The whole thing strikes me as a holdover from a very different past where the notion of "employer as parent" made sense and tying one's health insurance to one's lifetime employment was probably a reasonable idea. But those days are long gone. It's a hold-over from WWII, where the National War Labor Board approved all wage increases for people earning under $5000 ($65,000 in 2008 dollars) with the goal of maintaining stable wages+prices in spite of the worker shortage, employers who couldn't increase wages turned to fringe benefits like insurance to attract scarce workers, and unions negotiated for benefits which weren't treated as pay. Preferential tax treatment keeps the situation attractive, with employers paying less than they would on the same money as wages (there's no 7.65% FICA + Medicare tax attached to it) and employees benefiting as well (someplace like California you can pay 28% in federal income tax, 9.3% in state, 6.2% in Social security, 1.45% in Medicare, and 1.1% in state disability so you come out ahead even if the group rate is 80% higher than something you could get privately). I'd speculate that health insurance companies get a higher subscription rate and profits due to the current arrangement since many employees don't get to make the choice. Quote In the health care industry, the free market hasn't changed with the times. Again--this is an unusual result because usually the free market does change with the times. For some reason it hasn't when it comes to health insurance. We haven't had a free market in health insurance for over 65 years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyChimp 0 #41 November 11, 2009 QuoteQuoteI can't believe the House rammed this health care bill right thru the House floor with a last minute vote after Pelosi promised it would be posted online for review for 3 days. Another broken promise from Washington..... and you expected anything less? Lying and spending money has always been the way in washington, but now the left has increased both exponentially. No I didn't expect anything less but I'm pissed at America for not holding them accountable for this. If I was a Democrat, I would be pissed at Pelosi. This is a Representative Republic, not a Dictatorship Does anyone else find it funny that we made a SPORT out of an EMERGENCY PROCEDURE?!?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #42 November 11, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteI can't believe the House rammed this health care bill right thru the House floor with a last minute vote after Pelosi promised it would be posted online for review for 3 days. Another broken promise from Washington..... and you expected anything less? Lying and spending money has always been the way in washington, but now the left has increased both exponentially. No I didn't expect anything less but I'm pissed at America for not holding them accountable for this. If I was a Democrat, I would be pissed at Pelosi. This is a Representative Republic, not a Dictatorship this is why I am really upset, the rep's hardly listen to the people, the dem's are saying shut up we know better than you. either way we need to get rid of most of congress and start over. Government has screwed up almost everything they touched and need to step back and let us take care of ourselves. We may mess up but we fix our problems faster and cheaper than any government program ever has. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiver604 0 #43 November 11, 2009 Interesting thread,,,Up here in Canada we have a health care sysytem that sort off works. When you get injured or sick you go to the hospital / doctor, show them your government issued health card at the hospital or wait 4-6 weeks for a doctor appointment. At the hospital, depending on the severity of your illness or injury expect to wait anywheres from 2-10 hours, depending on how busy they are. or go to a local health clinic (when they're open) for non emergencies, wait 1-4 hours, get treated and go home. if you need an ultrasound, wait 4-6 weeks, mri ,wait 2-4 months , if not more. This of course is controlled and paid for by the government, through taxes paid by the taxpayer. Our governments are great at wasting money, when they get short of money they raise taxes instead of controlling spending and cutting costs. Our system is not great, it's expensive and it's all we got. Hopefully the US government will implement a system that more efficient than our system, can keep spending and costs under control and not be a fiancial burden on the average taxpayer. "The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #44 November 11, 2009 QuoteInteresting thread,,,Up here in Canada we have a health care sysytem that sort off works. When you get injured or sick you go to the hospital / doctor, show them your government issued health card at the hospital or wait 4-6 weeks for a doctor appointment. At the hospital, depending on the severity of your illness or injury expect to wait anywheres from 2-10 hours, depending on how busy they are. or go to a local health clinic (when they're open) for non emergencies, wait 1-4 hours, get treated and go home. if you need an ultrasound, wait 4-6 weeks, mri ,wait 2-4 months , if not more. Wait times like that are typical in the US, too. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiver604 0 #45 November 11, 2009 Yeah no surprise there, biggest problem up here people will go to the hospital for the smallest ailment. Instead of going to the pharmacy for some over the counter meds and staying home to get some rest people go to the emergency ward. I haqve friend that works at the local hospital where I live, she tells me of people coming in with colds, mild fevers etc. it really puts a strain on the system. "The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #46 November 11, 2009 Yep and seeing them exchanging ID cards in order to escape paying is the icing on the cake, they do it in full view of everyone. Sniffles get taken before back injuries, I witnessed this with my own daughter after she was thrown from her horse. She was walking but it was a bad injury, after the scans she was given morphine x2. The POS that was before her merely had a cold. The people with him had a wallet full of ID cards, I should have called the police. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #47 November 11, 2009 QuoteWait times like that are typical in the US, too. No, they are not. I called two weeks ago to make an appointment and I was seen the next day. E room wait times vary, Quotehttp://www.insideindianabusiness.com/newsitem.asp?ID=18352 The average wait time nationally was three hours and 42 minutes Quotehttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15817906/ns/nightly_news_with_brian_williams/ The wait can seem unbearable when you need help. Across the country, the average emergency room wait time is now 222 minutes — that's 3 hours, 42 minutes. Hospitals in Arizona (4 hours, 57 minutes), Maryland (4 hours, 7 minutes), Utah (4 hours, 5 minutes), New York (3 hours, 58 minutes), and Florida (3 hours, 57 minutes) are among the worst, with wait times near or exceeding four hours. Quotehttp://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/08/07/average_er_waiting_time_nears_one_hour/ ATLANTA - The average time that hospital emergency rooms patients wait to see a doctor has grown from about 38 minutes to almost an hour over the past decade, according to new federal statistics released yesterday. Quotehttp://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2008/05/21/ot-er-waits-080521.html?ref=rss Got an urgent medical problem? If you visit an emergency room in western Quebec's Outaouais region, prepare to wait an average of 20 hours and 42 minutes before being discharged or admitted to another ward in the hospital. According to data compiled by the Le Comité de coordination national des urgences (CCNU), which works with emergency wards across the province, the average wait time in the Outaouais is four hours above the provincial average and two hours longer than last year. In addition, the data does not include the time spent waiting before seeing a doctor... Quebec average 16 h 30 min So, no... Data does not back up your position."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #48 November 11, 2009 You are comparing apples to oranges. Ths U. S. data is about wait time ot be seen by a doctor. The Quebec data doesn't even start until they are seen by a doctor and ends at discharge or admission to another department."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #49 November 11, 2009 QuoteYou are comparing apples to oranges. Not when you compare the statement, "At the hospital, depending on the severity of your illness or injury expect to wait anywheres [SIC] from 2-10 hours" And Dan's reply, "Wait times like that are typical in the US, too." To the first two links that show the average wait time is 3 hours, 42 minutes. 3:42 is not the same as 2-10 hours."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #50 November 11, 2009 Quote Quote Interesting thread,,,Up here in Canada we have a health care sysytem that sort off works. When you get injured or sick you go to the hospital / doctor, show them your government issued health card at the hospital or wait 4-6 weeks for a doctor appointment. At the hospital, depending on the severity of your illness or injury expect to wait anywheres from 2-10 hours, depending on how busy they are. or go to a local health clinic (when they're open) for non emergencies, wait 1-4 hours, get treated and go home. if you need an ultrasound, wait 4-6 weeks, mri ,wait 2-4 months , if not more. Wait times like that are typical in the US, too. Put the crack pipe down!!!!!!!!!! You have lost your mind in lala land if you have lied to yourself long enough to beleive that I can get a cat scan, MRI, anyother test in 2 day's (not talking about the ER ) and most of the time same day. The diff is were i live we dont have as high of Medicaid and other govt run BS here. People pay for there services and get better care. If you think it can take up to mounth's to get scan's.....you have lost your mind!Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
