7/7 message for Christian Skydivers

[ChristSkyd 0]

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To see God, we must perceive Him as He originally created us, perfect and uncorrupted. Sin obscures the existence of God and turns His Words into gibberish. Through sin we replace God and insert ourselves as creator, deciding right from wrong.

...

The concept of sin only exists in Judeo-Christian belief. Natural man cannot conceive sin without a life changing experience. For most, that life changing experience is the epiphany when Jesus Christ is accepted as the personal Savior and the Holy Spirit then indwells the new believer. The Holy Spirit guides the understanding of Christ. The natural or rational mind is incapable of such comprehension.

Dr. William Wilson, professor emeritus, Duke University Department of Psychiatry, once said that person will not accept Jesus until they have experienced deep emotional trauma. The debilitating trauma may last only a few seconds but it must be present.

One of the primary purposes of Christian witnessing is provide the information the sinner can grasp in their desperation, which has not yet manifested.

IMO, everyone gets one chance at salvation, many are fortunate enough to get more than one.

One thing is certain, God will not force you to go to heaven. You have to desire it. That is a choice, the exercise of your free will.

A preacher friend once said, "Do you know what you have to do to go to hell? Absolutely nothing."

[ChristSkyd 0]

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, check out http://www.raptureready.com

That appears to be an excellent reference. Thanks.

I am currently studying the timing of the rapture and am leaning toward the mid-tribulation point. However, there are arguments for pre-tribulation and post-tribulation.

[JackC 0]

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, check out http://www.raptureready.com

That appears to be an excellent reference.

For what? Are you trying to produce an SI standard nutter, the nutter by which all other nutters are calibrated?

[lurch 0]

This is what I was talking about. No matter how many different ways I read it, the answers I just got simply don't make any sense. Logic and rationality are the tools with which I process the world around me. The answers I got have so many unfounded assumptions and damaged code I can derive no useful information from them nor process them in a way that results in any actual meaning.

Second sentence for example: Replace god? I haven't got one to begin with. Insert ourselves as creator? Again, context and concrete reference to any sort of reality lock are absent. I've made no claims to be "creator" in the context in which I think the word was just used, ( I create stuff all the time, I'm a tech, thats what I do, but I don't think making technology is what he was referring to) and I can't, by any leap of logic connect that to the second half of the sentence...deciding right from wrong? This is said as if there was something wrong with using your own mind to decide right from wrong. Deciding right from wrong is a basic function of the mind. Personally I run on a rationalist morality guided by empathy for others. If it harms others its wrong, if it helps, it isn't. The underlying assumption under the statement seems to be that I'm not supposed to think, just let someone else dictate right and wrong FOR me, and obey without question as if using my own judgement is somehow a bad thing. To me, that IS wrong. The only person capable of deciding right from wrong is the individual currently experiencing the situation in which such a decision needs to be made.

We are free minds. It is our duty to ourselves and others to use our best judgement to decide right from wrong and act accordingly. Turning the decision over to someone else or some ancient writings from primitive neolithic galileans who knew nothing of the universe beyond the few square miles around them makes no more sense than having a child decide over the phone whether or not I ought to change lanes on the highway right now. The only one fit to make the judgement and in posession of enough information to be making the call at all is the person behind the wheel. I hate to be negative, but we don't seem to be speaking the same language here, guys. I'm not capable of abdicating basic judgement functions nor believing there is anything wrong with using such judgement. Its what the mind is FOR.
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[Rstanley0312 1]

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, check out http://www.raptureready.com

That appears to be an excellent reference. Thanks.

I am currently studying the timing of the rapture and am leaning toward the mid-tribulation point. However, there are arguments for pre-tribulation and post-tribulation.

Ok don't take this the wrong way but I really believe that I show Christ in me by my actions! Not by discussing theology with people that do not understand it nor do they even believe in it. To discuss things like this you have to agree from the beginning that God is real and the Bible is absolute truth otherwise you will never get anywhere. During season the DZ becomes my church and yes I think that is possible because interacting with God and others is what it is all about and so is serving others. I don't go to church to really "get something" I go there to serve and I think I can do that at the DZ and show God's love through my actions. But discussing things like the "rapture" which by the way I think is misinterpruted (not even in the Bible), with people that do not even really believe in the Bible will not get you very far. I just don't know if this is the venue for daily devotionals..... I mean if you feel led to post them then alright but just expect TK to chime in and a few others and also know that when you do this you are just reinforcing their view. Remember when Jesus spoke he automatically had a platform as he had rabbitical authority and was speaking to the Jews about their God.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[JackC 0]

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To discuss things like this you have to agree from the beginning that God is real and the Bible is absolute truth otherwise you will never get anywhere.

A process which is known as begging the question.

[Rstanley0312 1]

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To discuss things like this you have to agree from the beginning that God is real and the Bible is absolute truth otherwise you will never get anywhere.

A process which is known as begging the question.

Exactly!

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[JackC 0]

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To discuss things like this you have to agree from the beginning that God is real and the Bible is absolute truth otherwise you will never get anywhere.

A process which is known as begging the question.

Exactly!

I can think of no circumstances in which this can be considered a good or positive thing.

[Rstanley0312 1]

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To discuss things like this you have to agree from the beginning that God is real and the Bible is absolute truth otherwise you will never get anywhere.

A process which is known as begging the question.

Exactly!

Not sure what you mean? I am just stating that this has to be understood to use the Bible in the discussion and to talk theology otherwise its pointless.

I can think of no circumstances in which this can be considered a good or positive thing.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[Andy9o8 2]

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The concept of sin only exists in Judeo-Christian belief.

That is incorrect, unless you're restricted to a uniquely Judeo-Christian - and thus self-actualizing - definition if sin. As for the generic definition of sin, here's one by the Merriam-Webster dictionary.

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1sin
Pronunciation: \ˈsin\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English sinne, from Old English synn; akin to Old High German sunta sin and probably to Latin sont-, sons guilty, est is — more at is
Date: before 12th century
1 a: an offense against religious or moral law b: an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible c: an often serious shortcoming : fault
2 a: transgression of the law of God b: a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God synonyms see offense

This defintion, taken broadly, is hardly unique to Judeo-Christian religion or cultures, either historically or presently.

[JackC 0]

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Not sure what you mean? I am just stating that this has to be understood to use the Bible in the discussion and to talk theology otherwise its pointless.

And you have to assume Star Trek is real before you can have a meaningful discussion on the history of Klingon opera.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

[maadmax 0]

... I hate to be negative, but we don't seem to be speaking the same language here, guys. I'm not capable of abdicating basic judgement functions nor believing there is anything wrong with using such judgement. Its what the mind is FOR.
-B

[Rstanley0312 1]

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Not sure what you mean? I am just stating that this has to be understood to use the Bible in the discussion and to talk theology otherwise its pointless.

And you have to assume Star Trek is real before you can have a meaningful discussion on the history of Klingon opera.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Again I do know what it means so I don't need to look at the Wiki def. we are dealing with faith here so I would say it is a bit different.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[JackC 0]

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we are dealing with faith here so I would say it is a bit different.

Why is faith different? Why should faith be allowed a free pass when circular reasoning wouldn't even be entertained if applied any other subject?

The rules should be the same for all. No exceptions.

[ChristSkyd 0]

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The concept of sin only exists in Judeo-Christian belief.

That is incorrect, unless you're restricted to a uniquely Judeo-Christian - and thus self-actualizing - definition if sin. As for the generic definition of sin, here's one by the Merriam-Webster dictionary.

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1sin
Pronunciation: \ˈsin\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English sinne, from Old English synn; akin to Old High German sunta sin and probably to Latin sont-, sons guilty, est is — more at is
Date: before 12th century
1 a: an offense against religious or moral law b: an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible c: an often serious shortcoming : fault
2 a: transgression of the law of God b: a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God synonyms see offense

This defintion, taken broadly, is hardly unique to Judeo-Christian religion or cultures, either historically or presently.

Genesis is first century. The above definition is based on that reference e.g., "before 12th century," ergo, Jewish Scripture.

***Genesis 4:7
If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

[ChristSkyd 0]

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Remember when Jesus spoke he automatically had a platform as he had rabbitical authority and was speaking to the Jews about their God.

And, that was before He issued the Great Commission.
***

Matthew 28:18-20 (New King James Version)

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore[a] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen

[Rstanley0312 1]

um........ that's why its called "faith".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[Rstanley0312 1]

true but sometimes you need to put how you are doing it in check so you do not yourself become a stumbling block.


Matt. 18:7, Luke 17:1

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[quade 4]

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Genesis is first century. The above definition is based on that reference e.g., "before 12th century," ergo, Jewish Scripture.

You've obviously studied the Bible, but I don't think there's a whole lot of biblical scholars that would agree that the stories in Genesis took place in the first century. That's simply not possible when you take into consideration all of the things that supposedly happened between Genesis and the New Testament.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Rstanley0312 1]

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Genesis is first century. The above definition is based on that reference e.g., "before 12th century," ergo, Jewish Scripture.

You've obviously studied the Bible, but I don't think there's a whole lot of biblical scholars that would agree that the stories in Genesis took place in the first century. That's simply not possible when you take into consideration all of the things that supposedly happened between Genesis and the New Testament.

Seminary Grad here....... def. not 1st century

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[ChristSkyd 0]

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true but sometimes you need to put how you are doing it in check so you do not yourself become a stumbling block.


Matt. 18:7, Luke 17:1

Point well taken. Note, the OP was for Christian Skydivers. Others chose to become involved by making comments. You even jumped in when I was supporting another Christian poster.

[ChristSkyd 0]

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Seminary Grad here....... def. not 1st century

***

Genesis 1:1
[ The History of Creation ] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Sin is first mentioned, I believe, in Genesis 4:7 as stated above.

Authorship attributed to Moses, born around 1200 B.C. concerning events approximately 4000 B.C. I did not mean 00-99 A.D. I apologize for the confusion.

[dmkellett 0]

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This is what I was talking about. No matter how many different ways I read it, the answers I just got simply don't make any sense. Logic and rationality are the tools with which I process the world around me. The answers I got have so many unfounded assumptions and damaged code I can derive no useful information from them nor process them in a way that results in any actual meaning.

Second sentence for example: Replace god? I haven't got one to begin with. Insert ourselves as creator? Again, context and concrete reference to any sort of reality lock are absent. I've made no claims to be "creator" in the context in which I think the word was just used, ( I create stuff all the time, I'm a tech, thats what I do, but I don't think making technology is what he was referring to) and I can't, by any leap of logic connect that to the second half of the sentence...deciding right from wrong? This is said as if there was something wrong with using your own mind to decide right from wrong. Deciding right from wrong is a basic function of the mind. Personally I run on a rationalist morality guided by empathy for others. If it harms others its wrong, if it helps, it isn't. The underlying assumption under the statement seems to be that I'm not supposed to think, just let someone else dictate right and wrong FOR me, and obey without question as if using my own judgement is somehow a bad thing. To me, that IS wrong. The only person capable of deciding right from wrong is the individual currently experiencing the situation in which such a decision needs to be made.

We are free minds. It is our duty to ourselves and others to use our best judgement to decide right from wrong and act accordingly. Turning the decision over to someone else or some ancient writings from primitive neolithic galileans who knew nothing of the universe beyond the few square miles around them makes no more sense than having a child decide over the phone whether or not I ought to change lanes on the highway right now. The only one fit to make the judgement and in posession of enough information to be making the call at all is the person behind the wheel. I hate to be negative, but we don't seem to be speaking the same language here, guys. I'm not capable of abdicating basic judgement functions nor believing there is anything wrong with using such judgement. Its what the mind is FOR.
-B

Brian,

How articulate. My feelings exactly. It is nice to know that the grand 'ol US of A is not TOTALLY lost to the lunatics. Its a slow battle of attrition, I worry about the third world increase in belief ( especially islam) but honestly believe there are MANY MANY now atheist Americans who are just silent. The developed world will lead the way in the fight for reason and rational thought, not in our lifetime but eventually we will prevail. If we dont we are doomed as a species. This makes me so very sad. We have such a short time to get to grips with our environment and the things we need to do, we definatlely do not need to be thinking about the imminent return of a stone age ranting preacher to save us. We need to save ourselves. nobody is coming to help.

Next time I come to FL we should hang out again....

See ya Brian, keep fighting the lunacy in your great country

D

[georgerussia 0]

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My point is that good works are only a minor part of the Christian message. The main message of Christianity is developing a personal relationship with God. After that transformation, good works naturally follow from a regenerated spirit. Good works alone can not produce this relationship only faith in Christ.

Would you agree that your message sounds absolutely groundless for non-Christians, and therefore makes no sense for non-Christian public?

Would you agree that anyone who is Christian believes that he already developed personal relationship with God, so for them your message is redundant, and therefore makes no sense for Christian public?

I really interested in your opinion.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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To see God, we must perceive Him as He originally created us, perfect and uncorrupted. Sin obscures the existence of God and turns His Words into gibberish. Through sin we replace God and insert ourselves as creator, deciding right from wrong.

No, the God did not create Adam perfect, as Adam was the first sinner. If your direct creation was already broken, it would be stupid to expect anything derived from it to be perfect.

And, of course, there is a good question why the God created sin in the first place (and being the Creator of everything around, he obviously was).

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The concept of sin only exists in Judeo-Christian belief.

Are you sure? It does exist in some pagan religions. Even Karma is based on good actions, and "bad actions", i.e. sins.

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Dr. William Wilson, professor emeritus, Duke University Department of Psychiatry, once said that person will not accept Jesus until they have experienced deep emotional trauma. The debilitating trauma may last only a few seconds but it must be present.

So, saying it another way, anybody with good common sense will not accept Jesus if not being under extreme stress, when the person's ability to behave rationally is greatly diminished. Correct?

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IMO, everyone gets one chance at salvation, many are fortunate enough to get more than one.

What about the people who never heard of Jesus, and therefore will not accept him as his Lord and Saviour? Is it their fault that your Jesus doesn't do daily broadcasts so everyone knows about him?

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A preacher friend once said, "Do you know what you have to do to go to hell? Absolutely nothing."

This explains why some of them molest children. If they're doing nothing, and going to hell already, then why not? There is only one hell.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *