Health Care "Overhaul"

[TomAiello 26]

Heck, the federal government has been borrowing to pay operating expenses for so long, it probably seems insane to the folks in Washington that anyone wouldn't be living off their credit card.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[warpedskydiver 0]

Tom, I feel much as you do on this matter as I have studied the writings of Jefferson for quite some time.

He was brilliant and not condescending of others ideas.

He may have disagreed but did not make a habit of belittling those he did not agree with.

Many of his ideas I agree with and as I grew older I could understand more and more of what he envisioned.

The sad truth is the world is so screwed up that if we did not have a standing army we would be overthrown as a world power, and probably would be invaded/conquered easily.

Modern warfare being what it is, the slow mobilization of an all volunteer army based in their homes to assemble and be armed would be too little, too late.

[TomAiello 26]

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The sad truth is the world is so screwed up that if we did not have a standing army we would be overthrown as a world power, and probably would be invaded/conquered easily.

Overthrown as a world power? Heck, what is our world power status getting us? Everyone hating us, our people getting blown up in random places all over the globe, our tax dollars getting funneled down ratholes in the middle east? If that's being a world power, I think I'd be ok with being overthrown a little bit. Let someone else do that shit for a while, so we can do some stuff around the home front.

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Modern warfare being what it is, the slow mobilization of an all volunteer army based in their homes to assemble and be armed would be too little, too late.

Too late for what? The only real role of the military, in a purely Jeffersonian system, is to defend the nation. Not to project influence outside of it.

See how much trouble we've had occupying Iraq and Afghanistan? Now imagine anyone trying to occupy the USA, which is much larger, has far more people, and has a far larger number of rifles in circulation.

Plus, I'm not necessarily envisioning an all volunteer army. Just a largely volunteer army. I can see some minimal Federal military, including some kind of entity to coordinate the State militias (which would include some full time professionals, just as they do now), a real Coast Guard with the teeth to actually guard the coast, and some other stuff.

I just don't want a military that's so large that (a) we use it as a tool for empire building, and (b) there is no plausible power balance between the states, the people and the federal government--right now all the power rests with the federal government, and I think that's a problem.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[mnealtx 0]

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>What gives you the RIGHT to DEMAND the labor of another person?

A little-known document, prefaced by:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish Justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this constitution for the United States of America."

It's out of fashion, I know, but some of us are enamored of it.

Bullshit.

Show me an explicit quote that shows that I have a RIGHT to the labor of another person.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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> Liberty is the antithesis of forced labor.

Then you advocate abolition of the military, then?

That one doesn't fly, either - volunteer military.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[TomAiello 26]

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Show me an explicit quote that shows that I have a RIGHT to the labor of another person.

Well, it was pretty much there from the beginning. But it was taken out in 1865. I think Bill may have missed that part.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Gawain 0]

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> Liberty is the antithesis of forced labor.

Then you advocate abolition of the military, then?

I volunteered.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[billvon 2,994]

>Show me an explicit quote that shows that I have a RIGHT to the labor
>of another person.

You, personally, don't, unless you contract with that person for that labor.

However, we, through our democratically elected government, do have a right to the labor of others (through taxation):

"Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons . . ."

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United State . . ."

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

[mnealtx 0]

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>Show me an explicit quote that shows that I have a RIGHT to the labor
>of another person.

You, personally, don't, unless you contract with that person for that labor.

Glad to see you 'saw the light'

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 2,994]

>Glad to see you 'saw the light'

Looks like we agree, then! Other people do have the right to demand your labor (in the form of taxes) for programs that they enjoy, just as you have the right to demand (via government) taxation from them for programs you support.

[Bolas 5]

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>Glad to see you 'saw the light'

Looks like we agree, then! Other people do have the right to demand your labor (in the form of taxes) for programs that they enjoy, just as you have the right to demand (via government) taxation from them for programs you support.

So where do those that don't pay taxes but use social programs fit in in this model? Do they lose their right to vote or should they not be allowed to benefit from those programs?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 2,994]

>So where do those that don't pay taxes but use social programs fit in
>in this model? Do they lose their right to vote or should they not be
>allowed to benefit from those programs?

It would be easier to just dry them up and then extract useful minerals from their bodies.

[jcd11235 0]

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It's a LONG stretch to argue that promote the general welfare means that the founding fathers wanted free health care for everyone.

But, it's not a long stretch at all to consider the health of the population an important aspect of the nation's general welfare. If the government needs to provide healthcare to those who can't access it any other way, then their obligation to "promote the the general welfare" gives them the Constitutional power to do so.

When you provide medical care to your patients, are you not, simultaneously, promoting medical care?) Are there other ways to promote medical care besides to directly provide that care? It would seem that promoting can indeed encompass providing.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[georgerussia 0]

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It would be easier to just dry them up and then extract useful minerals from their bodies.

This is cruel. There are better alternatives - the ones who are unable to take care of themselves should have a personal government czar to be appointed, and follow his direction.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Lefty 0]

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It would be easier to just dry them up and then extract useful minerals from their bodies.

This is cruel. There are better alternatives - the ones who are unable to take care of themselves should have a personal government czar to be appointed, and follow his direction.

Czar: "OK, dry yourselves up and extract useful minerals from your body."

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[StreetScooby 5]

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It would be easier to just dry them up and then extract useful minerals from their bodies.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

Interesting article in reuters today.

The three urban myths of healthcare reform
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/07/20/the-three-urban-myths-of-healthcare-reform/

Interesting article, and short. Worth the read.

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When it comes to healthcare reform, as Aldous Huxley said, “Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

Three of the most common “urban myths” of American healthcare are that:
1. The lower life expectancy in the U.S. “proves” the total inadequacy of our system;
2. There are 47 million uninsured Americans — proving the inequity of our system; and
3. We spend “too much” on health care — proving the wastefulness of our system.

As the Ol Perfessor used to say, “Let’s look at the numbers.”

We are all engines of karma

[rehmwa 2]

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It would be easier to just dry them up and then extract useful minerals from their bodies.

This is cruel. There are better alternatives - the ones who are unable to take care of themselves should have a personal government czar to be appointed, and follow his direction.

Czar: "OK, dry yourselves up and extract useful minerals from your body."

No need - under Obama-care, there will be a set of criteria in place that will identify when you are to not receive any more medical help so you'll be disected and pieced out for the use of the elite (er.... the people). The remaining organic matter will be dried up and sorted for personal use - but it'll be free and you and your family don't need to make that pesky decision whether you should live or die - or whether you want to be a donor or not.

The decision criteria will be mainly based on race and gender, political registration, and the needs of personal friends in government for spare livers, hearts and tissue grafts.

It's about time.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Darius11 12]

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I think health care is a right

How is health care a right?

What problems do you feel can be justifiably solved through the initiation of force and violence?

I know these are some tough questions for you, but I'm hoping you can give me a straight answer instead of the evasiveness and attacks that you responded with earlier.

Sorry for the long delay in my replay, today is the first just I have had to.

It is my opinion that a great nation would take care of its citizens health. No different then a natural disaster. When someone gets sick to me it’s a personal natural disaster. We are also smart enough to know that prevention is always a better option then a cure.

I am not saying that the healthcare professionals like drs, nurses, researchers etc. should work for free all I am saying is us ALLL OF US should chip in.

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I know these are some tough questions for you, but I'm hoping you can give me a straight answer instead of the evasiveness and attacks that you responded with earlier.

When your initial response is too assume you know things about me personally that you don’t or you assume to read my mind you shouldn’t expect me to just let you get away with it.
I can’t stand people who try to tell me what I am thinking. I also hate the group mentality that appears here some times as I call it the circle jerk. Where there is no facts just the same spine that the same people pass back and forth together. It reminds me of high school and even then I thought it was immature and a trick used by people who can not find the facts to support their ideas.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

I don’t think anyone is saying Drs. Should work for free. I also don’t think the insurance companies help Drs, or anyone else really. They’re a business that cares about one thing money. I am not saying that’s a bad thing all the time, all I am saying is it’s a bad thing when it comes to peoples health. Some things are worth more then money.

I think a single payer option would be great for everyone but the insurance companies. I wonder how much there’re spending on the spine machine to keep a strangle hold on their multi billion dollar industry.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[billvon 2,994]

>No need - under Obama-care, there will be a set of criteria in place that
>will identify when you are to not receive any more medical help so you'll be
>disected and pieced out for the use of the elite (er.... the people).

Not a bad idea. A combination of that and advanced military prosthetics should allow ordinary people like Dick Cheney to survive well into the next century, where he will provide a valuable public service by crushing rebel forces and protecting the Emperor from Jedi traitors.

[Darius11 12]

In a society we all pay our share for a lot of what we have. Military, roads, welfare, etc.

As I said before I can not think of a better thing to be taxed for then saving a a fellow citizens life.


So I am not excluding my self. I can’t understand the argument that some how all the other shit we the tax payers pay for is more ok then saving our fellow citizens lives.

I think the insurance companies are investing all they can in the spin machine and spewing out garbage like “ the old will be told to go die because there hearth medicine will cost to much”. I just hear that and think wow who is stupid enough to believe that dumb shit. But fear works. No one actually thinks that there simply protecting their multi billion-dollar industry.

As I said before I would love to see a single payer option, and I have no problem if a corporation doesn’t make a profit on a kids cancer. I am ok with that.


I also think this points to a huge problem we have in our culture. MONEY IS NOT EVERY THING AND THERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE VALUED MORE.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[StreetScooby 5]

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Not a bad idea. A combination of that and advanced military prosthetics should allow ordinary people like Dick Cheney to survive well into the next century, where he will provide a valuable public service by crushing rebel forces and protecting the Emperor from Jedi traitors.

Don't forget sulphur strippers. But that time, I'm sure we'll be targeting SOX emitters big time.

We are all engines of karma

[Darius11 12]

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As I said before, it'd be very simple to just allow anyone in America with an income under some amount (say 20k for individuals and 50k for families) to join the federal employees plan, and get the same healthcare members of congress get. If the government paid their premiums, it would still be cheaper than any of the alternatives currently being considered.

So you also agree that people who can not afford it should get health insurance. We just don’t agree on the income levels and the details.

I also think the simple option which seems to work great in the UK is a single payer option that insures everyone. Rich and poor, and if you want extera health care or insurance you can get it.

I am not a giant corporation hater, however my one exception is healthcare.


The idea of making profit on disease and peoples health seems so dirty and wrong to me. I just can not justify another person suffering because someone needs to make a profit.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[StreetScooby 5]

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MONEY IS NOT EVERY THING AND THERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE VALUED MORE.

Yes, the individual's right to liberty, justice, and the pursuit of happiness. That comes with a price, called personal responsibility. IMO, the arguments here are revolving around what should be personal responsibility and what our government can impose on us.

We are all engines of karma