TomAiello 26 #176 July 23, 2009 QuoteI like tropical Central American countries with 15% top tax brackets, $40,000 houses inland a ways, and $200K beach front property which I couldn't match for $1.4M around here away from the ocean. In all seriousness, I'd be interested in discussing your research on the issue of where to flee to. I'm coming to the conclusion that it will be necessary to relocate my family outside the USA, probably before my children leave our home. How stable are those countries you've investigated? What's the chance they'll nationalize our home because we're foreigners? What is their healthcare system like? Anything you can share would be appreciated.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #177 July 23, 2009 QuoteTwo nearly identical parties are the inevitable result of first-past-the-post electoral systems. Unless that changes (to something like proportional representation at the national level which will not happen) we're not going to get dissenting fiscal conservatives like Libertarians in office who are opposed to deficit spending. I am not convinced of the wisdom of PR voting. I'm not a huge fan of our current system, either. PR voting has a lot of downside. Voting for the party instead of the candidate gives the party bosses a lot of power relative to the regional delegates (because they control the candidate lists). Minority "kingmaker" parties can stay in office (and hold onto portfolios) for decades, creating their own fiefdoms in a government office, using public funds. I'd rather see something different entirely. At present, the best option I see is reforming the voter base (to people who pay taxes, for example), but I don't really see that as a realistic possibility. In actual fact, I don't see any meaningful reform, or the survival of our current system, as realistic possibilities, either.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #178 July 23, 2009 QuoteMedicare is working pretty well. Doctors and patients, if you speak to them - do not get the runaround, they do not get 'screwed', they do not get mountains of paperwork to process a medical claim. Wow. I must live in a different country than you do. I've had to deal with Medicare for two different elderly family members, and to say that it's "working well" and that patients don't get screwed is to describe an experience entirely different from mine. Quoteold folks go to teh doctor, and the doctors send the bills to Medicare, Medicare pays them. What's the nonpayment rate from Medicare, for doctors? In other words, how often does medicare actually pay them? Do you have any idea?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #179 July 23, 2009 Quotewhat I have been saying all along - a private AND a public single-payer system. perhaps you missed all that in all my previous posts. And what WE'VE been saying all along - we already have that.... perhaps you missed that in the middle of your rants. I want to see fed.gov FIX what's broken in the system they already run, before they spool up another one.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #180 July 23, 2009 QuoteQuotewe're not going to get dissenting fiscal conservatives like Libertarians in office who are opposed to deficit spending. Recall that John McCain (the latest Republican standard bearer) had voted against tax cuts because they were not balanced by spending cuts, and he was opposed to the increase in deficit spending. While I'm not necessarily a huge fan of FPP voting, I think PR has it's own problems. I'll make another post with those thoughts, though. McCain may have carried the banner but, as close as he gets to that tittle would be RINO"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nataly 38 #181 July 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteI am going to say she is pretty much right, and leave it at that. They'll take you into the ER and fix you up, but it ends there. You've actually been in this situation, and that's what happened? Or are you just casting stereotypes based on what you think would happen, or what you heard would happen? I went to the ER when I was in the States. I had passed out and my friend was very concerned and took me to the hospital. They took a urine sample to see if I had diabetes and sent me on my way. The cost of seeing a nurse for 10 minutes and my urine sample?? Over $2,000. I rest my case."There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse." - Chris Hadfield « Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. » - my boss Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #182 July 23, 2009 Let me get this straight: You had passed out, and then regained consciousness, and you went to the ER? The ER is not the right place for that. You should have gone to an urgent care, where you'd pay a lot less, use up a lot less emergency resources, and (horrors) have to wait a while to get care, because your condition wasn't an emergency. Why on earth did you go the ER? It's people making decisions like that (going to the ER with non-emergency situations) that makes ER care (and healthcare generally) so expensive.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nataly 38 #183 July 23, 2009 QuoteLet me get this straight: You had passed out, and then regained consciousness, and you went to the ER? The ER is not the right place for that. You should have gone to an urgent care, where you'd pay a lot less, use up a lot less emergency resources, and (horrors) have to wait a while to get care, because your condition wasn't an emergency. Why on earth did you go the ER? It's people making decisions like that (going to the ER with non-emergency situations) that makes ER care (and healthcare generally) so expensive. My friend carried me to the ER. Literally carried me in - he could barely find a pulse and thought it was pretty serious."There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse." - Chris Hadfield « Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. » - my boss Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #184 July 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteI am going to say she is pretty much right, and leave it at that. They'll take you into the ER and fix you up, but it ends there. You've actually been in this situation, and that's what happened? Or are you just casting stereotypes based on what you think would happen, or what you heard would happen? I went to the ER when I was in the States. I had passed out and my friend was very concerned and took me to the hospital. They took a urine sample to see if I had diabetes and sent me on my way. The cost of seeing a nurse for 10 minutes and my urine sample?? Over $2,000. I rest my case. Some how I doubt his is the whole story. Yes, it is expensive. Much of the higher costs are run up by those who dont or cant pay. Yet they still recieve medical attention in an emergency. More cost is added by our wonderful lawyers and their greed and finally, the states mandating coverage of boob jobs, sex change operations, face lift ect ect ect. Tort reform and allowing the insurace companies to build the plans without state mandates and allowing those plans to cross states borders would make a huge dent in the costs seen today. And the gov would not have to colltect more taxes to get it done."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #185 July 23, 2009 QuoteMy friend carried me to the ER. Literally carried me in - he could barely find a pulse and thought it was pretty serious. You were unconscious? If you were unconscious, how did they get a urine sample? You didn't receive any other care, or examination, between the time your unconscious body was carried into the ER and the time you left? Just a urine sample?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nataly 38 #186 July 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI am going to say she is pretty much right, and leave it at that. They'll take you into the ER and fix you up, but it ends there. You've actually been in this situation, and that's what happened? Or are you just casting stereotypes based on what you think would happen, or what you heard would happen? I went to the ER when I was in the States. I had passed out and my friend was very concerned and took me to the hospital. They took a urine sample to see if I had diabetes and sent me on my way. The cost of seeing a nurse for 10 minutes and my urine sample?? Over $2,000. I rest my case. Some how I doubt his is the whole story. Yes, it is expensive. Much of the higher costs are run up by those who dont or cant pay. Yet they still recieve medical attention in an emergency. More cost is added by our wonder lawyers and their greed and finally, the states mandating coverage of boob jobs, sex change operations, face lift ect ect ect. Tort reform and allowing the insurace companies to build the plans without state mandates and allowing those plans to cross states borders would make a huge dent in the costs seen today. And the gov would not have to colltect more taxes to get it done. I challenged it, and asked for an itemised bill. They had put an amazing array of items on there.. A whole box of kleenex, a whole box of q-tips, et cetera, et cetera. I managed to *significantly* reduce the bill, but I still thought it was pretty outrageous."There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse." - Chris Hadfield « Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. » - my boss Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nataly 38 #187 July 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteMy friend carried me to the ER. Literally carried me in - he could barely find a pulse and thought it was pretty serious. You were unconscious? If you were unconscious, how did they get a urine sample? You didn't receive any other care, or examination, between the time your unconscious body was carried into the ER and the time you left? Just a urine sample? We waited for a long time before seeing the nurse, so yes, whilst waiting I was conscious, but not when I was initially taken in. Perhaps it wasn't a case for the ER, but long story short, if you had been there you would have been pretty scared too. Edit - no, no other care was given. I was asked to lie down for a long time, asked for a urine sample, and sent on my way. The nurse examined me (pulse, heart-rate, etc.), but that's it."There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse." - Chris Hadfield « Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. » - my boss Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #188 July 23, 2009 Wow. I don't know what to say. You were carried, unconscious, into an ER, and then had to wait for care? There was no examination of you? What if you were having a heart attack or something? I'm pretty shocked that they didn't even examine you before making you wait. I've never seen that happen, not even i one those "shockingly caught on video" kind of things that turn into big lawsuits. What hospital were you at?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #189 July 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI am going to say she is pretty much right, and leave it at that. They'll take you into the ER and fix you up, but it ends there. You've actually been in this situation, and that's what happened? Or are you just casting stereotypes based on what you think would happen, or what you heard would happen? I went to the ER when I was in the States. I had passed out and my friend was very concerned and took me to the hospital. They took a urine sample to see if I had diabetes and sent me on my way. The cost of seeing a nurse for 10 minutes and my urine sample?? Over $2,000. I rest my case. Some how I doubt his is the whole story. Yes, it is expensive. Much of the higher costs are run up by those who dont or cant pay. Yet they still recieve medical attention in an emergency. More cost is added by our wonder lawyers and their greed and finally, the states mandating coverage of boob jobs, sex change operations, face lift ect ect ect. Tort reform and allowing the insurace companies to build the plans without state mandates and allowing those plans to cross states borders would make a huge dent in the costs seen today. And the gov would not have to colltect more taxes to get it done. I challenged it, and asked for an itemised bill. They had put an amazing array of items on there.. A whole box of kleenex, a whole box of q-tips, et cetera, et cetera. I managed to *significantly* reduce the bill, but I still thought it was pretty outrageous. Now this part of the story is easy to believe. You did good challenging the bill and asking for itemized bill. How much is "significant"?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nataly 38 #190 July 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI am going to say she is pretty much right, and leave it at that. They'll take you into the ER and fix you up, but it ends there. You've actually been in this situation, and that's what happened? Or are you just casting stereotypes based on what you think would happen, or what you heard would happen? I went to the ER when I was in the States. I had passed out and my friend was very concerned and took me to the hospital. They took a urine sample to see if I had diabetes and sent me on my way. The cost of seeing a nurse for 10 minutes and my urine sample?? Over $2,000. I rest my case. Some how I doubt his is the whole story. Yes, it is expensive. Much of the higher costs are run up by those who dont or cant pay. Yet they still recieve medical attention in an emergency. More cost is added by our wonder lawyers and their greed and finally, the states mandating coverage of boob jobs, sex change operations, face lift ect ect ect. Tort reform and allowing the insurace companies to build the plans without state mandates and allowing those plans to cross states borders would make a huge dent in the costs seen today. And the gov would not have to colltect more taxes to get it done. I challenged it, and asked for an itemised bill. They had put an amazing array of items on there.. A whole box of kleenex, a whole box of q-tips, et cetera, et cetera. I managed to *significantly* reduce the bill, but I still thought it was pretty outrageous. Now this part of the story is easy to believe. You did good challenging the bill and asking for itemized bill. How much is "significant"? I can't remember exactly, but it was less than a thousand in the end. Still thought it was extortionate.. I still remember getting that list that went on for two pages and thinking WHAT THE FUCK?? I was pretty pissed off. It took a long time to sort out too, and I can't remember if it was because they wouldn't accept credit card payment over the phone or what. It was in 2003 or 2004. That was the LAST TIME I *ever* travelled without travel insurance that covers me for *everything*. Just not worth it."There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse." - Chris Hadfield « Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. » - my boss Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #191 July 23, 2009 A couple of years ago I hit my head and sliced a gash in it. Someone looked at it and said I really needed stitches. So the next morning I went to one of the urgent care clinics (not an ER). I got some stitches and a tetanus shot. Total cost - $1700.. Insurance knocked it down to $1500 (which I had to pay because I have high-deductible insurance.) The tetanus shot alone they charged me $400 for! I wouldn't have done any of it if I had had even the faintest clue that they would charge me that much. I would have slapped a bandaid on it and been done with it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #192 July 23, 2009 Quote If you were unconscious, how did they get a urine sample?? They used the Hospital Mangement team to get it ....... They are always taking the piss (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #193 July 24, 2009 QuoteSpending too much is going to take down the United States the same way it turned the Soviet Union into a non-entity. I agree 100%. It is financial irresponsibility that will bring this country to the brink. We may or may not survive it. But as this discussion is about healthcare; The main argument against government healthcare in the U.S. is the cost. Yep, it'll be expensive. But here's the problem with that argument: There is NO WAY to measure the cost of not having health care. There isn't any way for the bean counters to show how a lack of health care is costing the U.S. more money than not having it. If 40 million people are not insured, and even more are under-insured, the numbers are too large to measure the loss when our citizens are sick and cannot work. Our roads are very expensive, and they are socialized (paid for by taxes). How good would our economy be if we chose not to have roads because they are too expensive? To me, it's easy to see that our roads generate much more revenue for the U.S. than they cost. But it can't be measured. All we can measure is the cost of building and maintaining them. Yep, it's expensive, but how many people challenge the worth of the roads? How many people vote "no" when there is a government bond to improve roads? The same is true for universal healthcare (IMO). If everyone has health coverage, and we get people healthy, then there will be more work, more product, more tax revenue, and more velocity of money in the U.S. It won't be measurable, but it will be there, and I believe it will generate more money for the U.S. than it will cost.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #194 July 24, 2009 QuoteThere is NO WAY to measure the cost of not having health care... Right. Just like "jobs created or saved." And much like "jobs created or saved" that means that it's a meaningless noise that can be used to great effect by a skillful orator. Which is exactly what the president did last night--used the boogeyman of "it'll ruin the economy not to do what I want" to push a political agenda.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #195 July 24, 2009 canuckinusa's experience is one of millions. I stand by original statements that while Canadians might complain about health care in Canada, few of them are willing to give it up for a completely privatized system. Most of them consider it to be a uniquely CANADIAN right and they are glad to have it. They just wish it worked better (geez, don't we all?) but yes, some things in Canada could be improved. they could allow private MRI businesses to open up, private X-rays, private lab tests, the stuff that people can actually afford to pay for themselves. - even private surgery centers. People who can pay would probably pay. I would pay for a private MRI if I needed (JUST LIKE I HAD TO DO HERE IN THE USA WHEN MY INSURANCE COMPANY DENIED ME THAT SAME MRI - EVEN THOUGH MY DOCTOR DEEMED IT NECESSARY) But no one in Canada really wants us to go to a private insurance-driven system. They just wish they had quicker access to health care. Well you know what - the guy who needs surgery on his knee? Well he can friggin' well wait - he can wait because it does not cost him tens of thousands of dollars. And he is still functioning fine in society, and if he waits 3 months to get that surgery - so be it....... The guy who had the heart attack and is dying? He is getting first rate treatment - in a hurry, immediately, in the emergency room and then surgery, and then rehab and recovery..... The lady who is dying from liver cancer, she is getting first rate treatment, in a cancer center, chemo, drugs, surgery, the works, she is getting it all, those are the facts. The USA public is so misinformed of what is actually going on in Canada it is hard to even describe. And if they live in some remote community, yes, they might have to travel to get that treatment (JUST LIKE THEY WOULD HERE IN THE USA) And neither one of them are going to EVER have to declare bankruptcy due to their condition (In Canada) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #196 July 24, 2009 sorry but we do NOT have a public, single-payer system in the USA that is available to everyone..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #197 July 24, 2009 QuoteWhat's the nonpayment rate from Medicare, for doctors? In other words, how often does medicare actually pay them? Do you have any idea? I don't know? What is it? I could not find anything online about it. most of the google searches turned up disputes about how much Medicare was paying for any given procedure - not that they were NOT paying.... so if you have some research, let me know, 'cause I cannot find it...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #198 July 24, 2009 Quotesorry but we do NOT have a public, single-payer system in the USA that is available to everyone..... Medicare/Medicaid - public, single payor and available. EMTALA - hospitals MUST provide care.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #199 July 24, 2009 QuoteWell you know what - the guy who needs surgery on his knee? Well he can friggin' well wait - he can wait because it does not cost him tens of thousands of dollars. And he is still functioning fine in society, and if he waits 3 months to get that surgery - so be it....... What about a year? Is a year ok to be in excruciating pain? QuoteOn the other side of the country in Alberta, Bill Murray waited in pain for more than a year to see a specialist for his arthritic hip. The specialist recommended a "Birmingham" hip resurfacing surgery (a state-of-the-art procedure that gives better results than basic hip replacement) as the best medical option. But government bureaucrats determined that Mr. Murray, who was 57, was "too old" to enjoy the benefits of this procedure and said no. In the end, he was also denied the opportunity to pay for the procedure himself in Alberta. QuoteThe lady who is dying from liver cancer, she is getting first rate treatment, in a cancer center, chemo, drugs, surgery, the works, she is getting it all, those are the facts. QuoteIn Ontario, Lindsay McCreith was suffering from headaches and seizures yet faced a four and a half month wait for an MRI scan in January of 2006. Deciding that the wait was untenable, Mr. McCreith did what a lot of Canadians do: He went south, and paid for an MRI scan across the border in Buffalo. The MRI revealed a malignant brain tumor. Ontario's government system still refused to provide timely treatment, offering instead a months-long wait for surgery. In the end, Mr. McCreith returned to Buffalo and paid for surgery that may have saved his life. Oh wait...that's a guy, not a lady...doesn't count, right? QuoteShona Holmes, another Ontario court challenger, endured a similarly harrowing struggle. In March of 2005, Ms. Holmes began losing her vision and experienced headaches, anxiety attacks, extreme fatigue and weight gain. Despite an MRI scan showing a brain tumor, Ms. Holmes was told she would have to wait months to see a specialist. In June, her vision deteriorating rapidly, Ms. Holmes went to the Mayo Clinic in Arizona, where she found that immediate surgery was required to prevent permanent vision loss and potentially death. Again, the government system in Ontario required more appointments and more tests along with more wait times. Ms. Holmes returned to the Mayo Clinic and paid for her surgery. There's one from a lady. QuoteThe USA public is so misinformed of what is actually going on in Canada it is hard to even describe. Mostly due to efforts like yours. QuoteAnd neither one of them are going to EVER have to declare bankruptcy due to their condition (In Canada) Except folks like the people above, who had to spend their life savings to get care that Canada wouldn't provide.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #200 July 24, 2009 QuoteMedicare/Medicaid - public, single payor and available. not available to me or millions of other americans QuoteEMTALA - hospitals MUST provide care. Not single payer - so I would and could very well go broke getting it - or I could just choose to die. so again, where is this 'single-payer' system that exists in America that is available to ALL Americans? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
