A Canadian experience with Canadian health-care

[tkhayes 348]

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/07/31/medicare-ad-exaggeration523.html

I love this shit.....

[TomAiello 26]

Still wondering if you had any thoughts on CanuckinUSA's experience?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[tkhayes 348]

I already commented on it

[FallingOsh 0]

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http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/07/31/medicare-ad-exaggeration523.html

I love this shit.....

You love the fact a woman couldn't get help in Canada and resorted to US treatment?

Holmes, from Waterdown, Ont., said she would have died had she relied on the Canadian health-care system and waited to see a specialist.

But the director of the brain tumour research centre at the Montreal Neurological Institute says he thinks that claim is "an exaggeration."

So the montreal director of brain tumor reseach is a little bias. That's weird.


Dr. Rolando Del Maestro says the lesion Holmes was diagnosed with is benign, and usually slow-growing. It typically does not require urgent attention, he said.

Oh... ok.. it's just a slow growing brain tumor. No need to worry, I guess.


"If it's a real emergency in the sense that the patient's visual function is getting substantially worse, the patients would be brought in immediately and would be operated on the next day," he said.

In 2005, Holmes, complaining of headaches and vision loss, went to see a Canadian doctor and was put on a six-month waiting list to see specialist.


Ok. In a case where vision loss is apparent, the patient gets immediate treatment.

Unless... the patient is a real person complaining of headaches and vision loss. Then they'll be put on a waiting list. Are you really using this shit as a source?

After trying unsuccessfully to expedite the process, she was diagnosed and treated at the Mayo Clinic. Holmes said U.S. doctors considered the cyst a tumour, and that it would cause death if not removed immediately.***

Please clarify how anything in this article comes close to justifying canadian style healthcare over ours.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[tkhayes 348]

I like that a ad comes out with bad information, that millions of people in the USA use it as justification to discredit an ENTIRE system of health care delivery, and then it is found out to 'not so true'.

But that's OK, you can continue to discredit an ENTIRE SYSTEM OF HEALTH CARE DELIVERY on one 'inaccurately portaryed' case. If you want to.

or you can go get the facts and choose for yourself.

rather than one 'inaccurately portrayed case'

[FallingOsh 0]

Quote

I like that a ad comes out with bad information, that millions of people in the USA use it as justification to discredit an ENTIRE system of health care delivery, and then it is found out to 'not so true'.

But that's OK, you can continue to discredit an ENTIRE SYSTEM OF HEALTH CARE DELIVERY on one 'inaccurately portaryed' case. If you want to.

or you can go get the facts and choose for yourself.

rather than one 'inaccurately portrayed case'

One case? So you're telling us this is the one case where the system put a person on a long waiting list for crutial tests?

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Stay positive and love your life.

[tkhayes 348]

actually if you could possibly read my post, what I said was what I said, nothing more and nothing less.

if you want to read more into than that - that is your choice....

millions of Americans, apparently including you, took one persons 'so-called' experience, and based a 'wrong' opinion on it.

of course this is America and you are entitled to our wrong opinion.

[dks13827 3]

my insurance treats me just fine. I pay them,, they oblige me. I have recourse against them if need be.
If I am a responsible person who abides by agreements, I won't be 'blown off ' like happens in Canada and Britain. You can lie all you want, if that is your wish. Responsible folks get shafted all the time in Canada and Britain.

[tkhayes 348]

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Responsible folks get shafted all the time in Canada and Britain.

Responsible folks get shafted all the time in the USA, and they have insurance. I am one of them

Their 'recourse' as you might suggest, is civil action. While the process is admittedly there, it is costly and time consuming and the insurance companies can fund is far better than Joe Average, - so the 'recourse' is not much 'recourse' for most people.....

if your solution included insurance for EVERYONE, then there might be a solution here, but sadly, that is not actually the reality. Of course you already know that.

[shropshire 0]

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I won't be 'blown off ' like happens in Canada and Britain. .

Like when/how do we get 'blown off'.... the NHS nas never blown me off .. I would have noticed.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[murrays 0]

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i am not sure that I have ever seen a case where a Canadian Province sent someone to the USA for treatment and paid the bill.

I would be interested is seeing those examples.

TK my old friend, it seems that our experience may have slipped your mind.

Patty (my wife, also an old friend of TK's) was sent to Seattle for her stem cell transplant by the province of Saskatchewan and they paid for all medical costs. ALL medical costs. I have no doubt that her treatment cost many hundreds of thousands of dollars. We were out of pocket about $20k for travel and accommodations down there.....a pittance really considering Patty's condition and necessary treatment.

Sending certain leukemia patients to Seattle is common practice in Saskatchewan. We don't have the facilities for particular types of stem cell treatment.

We were told that they tried to find her a space for treatment in Calgary and Vancouver which do have the necessary facilities but that there wasn't space available. Without the US system having available "slots" we don't know how long she would have had to wait for treatment in Canada.

Her treatment at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Centre and University of Washington was state-of-the-art and excellent in every regard.

Aside from the fact that her condition wasn't treatable in Saskatchewan, her service in Canada has always been prompt and timely.

Patty never had to pay for anything down in the US. It was billed directly to the Province. I can't imagine having to navigate the bureaucracy of insurance and so on that US patients have to deal with.

I have no doubt that both the US and Canadian systems can stand to be improved. The Canadian system worked for us financially and the US system provided the treatment. I think we were lucky to receive the best of both systems.

Cheers,

Murray

[tkhayes 348]

I remember that now, and I did some reading and yes, folks do go to the US for treatment, but also noted that it is 'rare' and unique.

Certainly not the 'doomsday scenario' it is played out to be by the right wing here in the USA. The article I read was largely about some women with high-risk pregnancies that went to the USA for delivery, again in rare cases.

I was sitting here on Saturday with Chromey from Deland, and he was telling me the story of how he had to go to Spain to get shoulder surgery, even though he has insurance here in the USA. why? His insurance company reneged and would not cover it. He could not possibly afford the costs involved.

A few years ago, Cameron here from Z-Hills went to India for back surgery, and I know several skydivers that went to spain for the same shoulder surgery (I think the doc is a skydiver)

Makes you wonder that if the system is so great here, why are these AMERICANS leaving the country to get health care.

yes both systems work, and both systems have issues. My basic premise is hat NO ONE in Canada ever went bankrupt from going to the hospital after an accident.

[murrays 0]

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I remember that now, and I did some reading and yes, folks do go to the US for treatment, but also noted that it is 'rare' and unique.

Certainly not the 'doomsday scenario' it is played out to be by the right wing here in the USA. The article I read was largely about some women with high-risk pregnancies that went to the USA for delivery, again in rare cases.

I was sitting here on Saturday with Chromey from Deland, and he was telling me the story of how he had to go to Spain to get shoulder surgery, even though he has insurance here in the USA. why? His insurance company reneged and would not cover it. He could not possibly afford the costs involved.

A few years ago, Cameron here from Z-Hills went to India for back surgery, and I know several skydivers that went to spain for the same shoulder surgery (I think the doc is a skydiver)

Makes you wonder that if the system is so great here, why are these AMERICANS leaving the country to get health care.

yes both systems work, and both systems have issues. My basic premise is hat NO ONE in Canada ever went bankrupt from going to the hospital after an accident.

I would be financially ruined if we had had to pay for Patty's treatment....of that there is absolutely no doubt in my mind.

The thing up here that can bite you is drugs not covered by a provincial drug plan. There have been a couple of recent cases where very expensive cancer drugs were having to be paid for by the patient.

My worry is that Patty will at some time require one of these drugs. After paying Blue Cross premiums for many years it has been an unpleasant surprise to find out that they do not cover anything that is not on the list of "formulary" drugs. So, the portion of drug costs not covered by the provincial plan is not reimbursed by Blue Cross.

--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

[FallingOsh 0]

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actually if you could possibly read my post, what I said was what I said, nothing more and nothing less.

Here's word for word what you said.

"But that's OK, you can continue to discredit an ENTIRE SYSTEM OF HEALTH CARE DELIVERY on one 'inaccurately portaryed' case. If you want to. "

That implies this is the only case of a waiting list that any of us has heard.

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if you want to read more into than that - that is your choice....

I wasn't reading into anything. They were your words.

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millions of Americans, apparently including you, took one persons 'so-called' experience, and based a 'wrong' opinion on it.

Again with the "one persons experience..." If you think all of this resistance to government healthcare is because millions of Americans read one person's experience then you're completely out to lunch.

Quote

of course this is America and you are entitled to our wrong opinion.

I'm entitled to your wrong opinion? No thanks.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[Ron 10]

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Certainly not the 'doomsday scenario' it is played out to be by the right wing here in the USA. The article I read was largely about some women with high-risk pregnancies that went to the USA for delivery, again in rare cases

Still, it goes to show that the LEVEL of care is not as good as can be found in the US.

And Canada has its own share of issues:

Quote

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jbjzPEY0Y3bvRD335rGu_Z3KXoQw

Dr. Anne Doig says patients are getting less than optimal care and she adds that physicians from across the country - who will gather in Saskatoon on Sunday for their annual meeting - recognize that changes must be made.

"We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize," Doing said in an interview with The Canadian Press.

"We know that there must be change," she said. "We're all running flat out, we're all just trying to stay ahead of the immediate day-to-day demands."

The pitch for change at the conference is to start with a presentation from Dr. Robert Ouellet, the current president of the CMA, who has said there's a critical need to make Canada's health-care system patient-centred. He will present details from his fact-finding trip to Europe in January, where he met with health groups in England, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands and France.

His thoughts on the issue are already clear. Ouellet has been saying since his return that "a health-care revolution has passed us by," that it's possible to make wait lists disappear while maintaining universal coverage and "that competition should be welcomed, not feared."

In other words, Ouellet believes there could be a role for private health-care delivery within the public system.

He has also said the Canadian system could be restructured to focus on patients if hospitals and other health-care institutions received funding based on the patients they treat, instead of an annual, lump-sum budget. This "activity-based funding" would be an incentive to provide more efficient care, he has said.

Doig says she doesn't know what a proposed "blueprint" toward patient-centred care might look like when the meeting wraps up Wednesday. She'd like to emerge with clear directions about where the association should focus efforts to direct change over the next few years. She also wants to see short-term, medium-term and long-term goals laid out.

"A short-term achievable goal would be to accelerate the process of getting electronic medical records into physicians' offices," she said. "That's one I think ought to be a priority and ought to be achievable."

A long-term goal would be getting health systems "talking to each other," so information can be quickly shared to help patients.

Doig, who has had a full-time family practice in Saskatoon for 30 years, acknowledges that when physicians have talked about changing the health-care system in the past, they've been accused of wanting an American-style structure. She insists that's not the case.

"It's not about choosing between an American system or a Canadian system," said Doig. "The whole thing is about looking at what other people do."

"That's called looking at the evidence, looking at how care is delivered and how care is paid for all around us (and) then saying 'Well, OK, that's good information. How do we make all of that work in the Canadian context? What do the Canadian people want?' "

Doig says there are some "very good things" about Canada's health-care system, but she points out that many people have stories about times when things didn't go well for them or their family.

"(Canadians) have to understand that the system that we have right now - if it keeps on going without change - is not sustainable," said Doig.

"They have to look at the evidence that's being presented and will be presented at (the meeting) and realize what Canada's doctors are trying to tell you, that you can get better care than what you're getting and we all have to participate in the discussion around how do we do that and of course how do we pay for it."

Maybe we should have these discussions BEFORE we follow a path that has been shown NOT TO WORK.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Andy9o8 2]

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Maybe we should have these discussions BEFORE we follow a path that has been shown NOT TO WORK.

Well, certainly. But that shouldn't stop us from cherry-picking the things that do work, or re-engineering the bugs out of beta versions to make them work well, or even daring to innovate new things.

The principle opposition to these things happening in respect of health care in the US are motivated by: for the few - the politics of greed, and for the many- the politics of fear. And you know what? - I happen to think those are shamefully piss-poor justifications for stagnation. Shame on us all if we allow greed, fear, ignorance and complacency to perpetuate today's problems into tomorrow because we have nothing better to offer our children than yesterday's solutions.

[tkhayes 348]

read my posts prior - I actually DO ADVOCATE SOME PRIVATIZATION IN CANADA.

I also advocate UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE FOR ALL WHO WANT IT IN THE USA.

Keep your friggin' health insurance and go broke when you get sick - if that's really what you want. But the majority of us want universal health coverage for everyone. I am not interested in losing my house and everything I worked for in life just because an uninsured driver hits me and I am left with life threatening injuries or I fall sick to some disease......And the majority of this country actually agrees with that example.

I never once said Canada was perfect, I never once said Canada's system could not use some improvement.

I have said repeatedly, that the US system is BROKEN, and it needs work. I have said that people regularly go bankrupt in the USA due to an accident or sickness. I have said regularly that low wage earners in the USA have NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER of affording reasonable health insurance under ANY circumstances.

So here is what I am going to do.

I am signing off the argument, because the fact is
1. Nothing ever changed USA policy based on what was discussed on DZ.com
2. no war ever came to an end or was prevented due to a discussion on dz.com
3. actually, I think nothing significant came out of a discussion on dz.com

it is kind of like trying to teach a pig to sing. First, it wastes your time, and second, it really annoys the pig.

But I will be at the town hall meeting in Minneola FL and I will be voicing my opinion weekly to the President and my members of congress. And I will work hard to achieve the goals I feel are necessary for the country.

And when all that happens, I will look back at all this stuff on dz.com and say - wow, what a waste of my time that was.

now what are YOU going to do? (not just Ron, but everyone....)


Here's my latest letter to everyone in Gov. a reply to the retarded letter I got from my Congresswoman recently.
--------------------------------------
Senator Bill Nelson & Mel Martinez
Florida

Dear sirs;

I am attaching a letter I wrote to Congresswoman Ginny Brown-Waite here in Florida regarding the recent debate over Health Care.

It expresses many of my views, which I can reiterate here as well for you, the debate appears to have shifted from Health Care reform to Health INSURANCE reform. I feel that this is a serious problem and the results will likely fail in practice. Insurance companies as they stand today, cannot and obviously will not be able to offer insurance to every American, UNLESS they are forced to. Adding the US government as another insurance player means that the government will be faced with the same competing issues for the most part. We do not need more insurance, we need universal health care for all. We need to eliminate insurance.

Medicare, as it stands today, works pretty good. The easiest solution is to change the age of eligibility of Medicare and then adjust the income tax base to pay for it.

Private medicine and insurance for that matter can still exist for those that have the money to pay for it. The insurance companies can sell supplemental insurance like they do today and people with wealth can still afford to pay for their own procedures if they wish. Several countries around the world share and public and a private health care system (Finland for example)

I fear that we are going down the worng road. Instead of coming up with a solution, we are coming up with a half-assed plan that everyone can “live with” but it will nto actually fix any of the problems.

As I state in the letter below, the guy who works at Wal-Mart cannot, will not, and will never be able to pay for health coverage or insurance, no matter what insurance might be available. But he is an American citizen, just like you and me, and he has the same rights. Health care is not a right you say?

Well it is if you are 65. It is if you are too poor. It is if you are in the military and it is if you are a retired veteran. For that matter, Health Care is a right if you are INCARCERATED in this country. It is only a small step to make it a right for everyone.

Now please do it. It is why I voted liberal in my government. Shame on America for not providing for their own people.
David Hayes
Zephyrhills, FL 33541

Attached in the recent email I received from Congresswoman Brown-Waite’s Office and I would like to rebut some of the things stated here. My comments are in italics.
David Hayes, Zephyrhills, FL


Dear David:

Thank you for bringing your concerns to my attention.  I appreciate the time you took to contact my office on this important issue and welcome the opportunity to respond.

President Obama has made it clear to Democrat leaders in Congress that any bill proposing reform of the health care system must include a new insurance plan run by the federal government, akin to Medicare or Medicaid. If this option is available to all, it will likely underpay physicians and hospitals the same way Medicare and Medicaid does.
“Most physicians are happy with the pay they get from Medicare/Medicaid - and I expect they would be willing to work for less if they did not have the overhead of trying to get paid by the private insurance companies, as they do today.”

Therefore, it will be much less expensive than private insurance, and the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) says Americans will rush to join this new system. This will cause employer-based insurers to lose business and many will be forced out of business altogether.  While President Obama has called these claims "scare tactics," a recent report by the CBO confirmed that a government run plan will move people off private insurance and into the government's plan. 
“Government insurance is not the solution, at least we agree on that. The solution is a single payer based healthcare system that delivers HEALTH CARE to all people of America, not another INSURANCE COMPANY. But I completely disagree with the statement that government insurance would drive private insurance companies out of business. We have Medicaid and Medicare and the companies still exist. At least a government plan might not exclude every possible thing that people need to get done, and there would be far less overhead associated with running the plan. We already have the process in place, - it is called Medicare. All we need to do is to change the age limit and adjust the tax base to pay for it - it could be done practically overnight.”

There is no country in the world with government-controlled health care that does not ration care. 
“There is no insurance company in America that does not ration health care.”

We constantly hear from President Obama that the quality of care in these countries is so much better than our own, yet he conveniently neglects to share with you any of the horror stories.
“America is full of horror stories too, but the fact of the matter is that the USA ranks between 32-37th place in the world for delivering health care - BEHIND dozens of other countries with nationalized programs.”

Trust me, they are not to difficult to find and serve as an excellent reminder that the grass is not always greener on the other side of the street. Furthermore, Americans have become accustomed to a health care system that spares no expense even in the face of grim odds.  This fact leads me to believe that Americans would have a difficult time adjusting to the inevitable rationing of health care services.
“My insurance company spares PLENTY of expense, pretty much every time I go to the doctor.  And what Americans are accustomed to is being overrun by greedy profiteering health insurance companies that continually raise rates and are not interested in delivering HEALTH CARE, they are only interested in MAKING PROFIT. Those that currently have NO health care, NO insurance, and NO hope, would have no trouble adjusting to the ‘rationing of healthcare’ as you put it. And even the majority of us (Me) who pay ridiculously high insurance rates, despite being in good health, would also have no trouble adjusting to the ‘rationing of health care’ ”

While I disagree with many of the proposals I have seen thus far, I am committed to trying to influence the final product with provisions I think are absolutely necessary.  First and foremost, I believe that everyone should have access to a physician, and also have a choice in which physician to see.  In England, physicians are assigned by zip code, which is just absurd.  It is imperative to protect the doctor-patient relationship and not allow the government to intervene. 
“No one is suggesting that we take away private doctors or the choice of doctors. The decision needs to be who will pay for it. The insurance companies have proven that they cannot offer products that can service all the people. The guy who works at Wal-Mart, no matter how hard he works, or how long he works, will NEVER be able to afford the health care he needs (or the insurance) if he were to develop cancer, or simply fall down the stairs in an accident. These people are already a burden to society when they go to the doctor or the ER. If society actually paid to get them back into good health, then they can and would actually go back to work again, paying taxes into the system that helped them get better. In today’s society, they end up broke, bankrupt, unable to work perhaps, AND a complete burden on society.”

As your Representative, I will continue to advocate for proposals that place the choice of health care in the hands of citizens and keep the government out of your doctor's office.
“I would prefer if you keep my INSURANCE company out of my doctor’s office. I actually trust the government more than I trust the Insurance industry.”

One plan I greatly favor is allowing the purchase of insurance across state lines.  State legislatures are responsible for determining which services insurance companies must cover, and some states have more mandates than others.  For example, individual insurance plans in New Jersey cost six times as much as if the same person were to buy insurance in Kentucky.  If the federal government could allow everyone to buy insurance from a different state than they reside in, the choice of plans would increase and price would decrease dramatically.  Unfortunately, I am not aware of any Democrat proposal that has adopted this outlook. 
“Again, INSURANCE is not the issue. No one is talking about delivering HEALTH CARE TO ALL. Stop talking about INSURANCE. Start talking about how to deliver HEALTH CARE to ALL Americans. The insurance companies are already not doing it. Getting the government involved in insurance only adds another player to an already failing market.”

The most glaring part about the proposals I have seen is that they do nothing to reduce the cost of the health care system.  Even if the government is able to insure more people, providing coverage is not providing access. 
“Glad we agree on something - providing coverage will NOT provide access. So provide the access and skip the coverage. Income taxes can easily pay for health care. Everyone pays, everyone participates.”

If Congress does not attempt to rein in the increasing cost of health care, our country's problems will become far larger than we ever imagined.  I believe that a reduction in costs can be achieved through medical malpractice reform, increasing pooling options for preexisting conditions and small businesses, and the use of prevention and wellness programs. 
“Reign in medical malpractice by stopping lawyers from gaining percentages of the purse. They should be paid as attorneys, by the hour, not by the commission of what is at stake. Remove ALL conditions for pre-existing conditions, but of course, if all your are trying to do is sell insurance, then you cannot ever do that. A single payer system does not care about pre-existing conditions, because a single payer system actually cares about the treatment of it citizens, not about ‘the insurance policy’ needed to pay for it.”

You have my assurance that I will continue to oppose any government takeover of your healthcare, ......
“And you have my assurance that I will vote you out of office if you continue to hold this position”

and advocate for policies that promote choice and protect the benefits you have now. As always, I appreciate hearing your thoughts about the proposals moving through Congress.  The House and Senate are going into the August recess without either chamber voting on a health care bill, so the urgency of the situation has been delayed.  However, I encourage you to stay engaged on this issue as the health reform debate continues this fall. 

Throughout my tenure in public service, I have always kept an open door and an open dialogue with my constituents.  As Congress addresses the many challenges facing our nation, I hope you will continue to share your thoughts and views with me.  Accordingly, I encourage you to visit my Web site at http://brown-waite.house.gov to email me and find useful information about our 5th Congressional District.

It is my honor and privilege to serve the people of Florida's 5th Congressional District and my offices and staff are here to provide you with any assistance you may need.

Sincerely, Ginny Brown-Waite
Member of Congress

[Ron 10]

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read my posts prior - I actually DO ADVOCATE SOME PRIVATIZATION IN CANADA.

Yet you also seem to want the same failed program here.

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I also advocate UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE FOR ALL WHO WANT IT IN THE USA.

Despite how it has failed time after time.

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Keep your friggin' health insurance and go broke when you get sick - if that's really what you want. But the majority of us want universal health coverage for everyone.

Not the majority... As soon as they are told there will be tax increases... When you mention people will actually have to pay, the polls go to 47-47.

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I have said repeatedly, that the US system is BROKEN, and it needs work. I have said that people regularly go bankrupt in the USA due to an accident or sickness. I have said regularly that low wage earners in the USA have NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER of affording reasonable health insurance under ANY circumstances.

1. Canada's system is also broken... Even the HEAD of that system said so.

2. People often go WITHOUT treatment in Canada due to the Canadian system.

3. People often LEAVE Canada to get treatment since they can't get it at home.

4. Low wage earners CAN afford health insurance... Heather had a Blue Cross policy for less than 100 bucks a mth. Many choose NOT to buy it.

http://aspe.hhs.gov/health/reports/07/uninsured/index.htm

75.1% of people who are uninsured in the US make over 25,000 per year. That the majority are 18-44. And that the uninsured rate was less than 16%. And that 20% without insurance made more than 75K a year.

In addition, there are 6.9 million workers and dependents that have declined employer coverage and remain uninsured (19% of the uninsured).

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now what are YOU going to do?

I am writing my Senators and Congressmen, I am attending meetings in my area. I don't want the US to follow the same failed path of other Countries.

I don't see why the Govt should be involved any MORE than needed. I don't think Govt run programs really work well, visit the DMV sometime, the US mail is operating at a loss, and Amtrak has not made money since inception.

When you look at taxpayer to user ratios, there is no way that you can have 138 million people paying taxes paying for the healthcare of 307,212,123 people (July 2009 est.) You would have 2.2 people per taxpayer. How are taxes not supposed to go up again?

Look at France

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124958049241511735.html

The problem is that Assurance Maladie has been in the red since 1989. This year the annual shortfall is expected to reach €9.4 billion ($13.5 billion), and €15 billion in 2010, or roughly 10% of its budget.

And since it has started, there have been 6 tax increases to pay for it, 4 reductions in benefits, and four increases in fees.... and they STILL have a 13.5B shortfall.

There is SO much more that can be done before we adopt an admittedly broken system.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Well, certainly. But that shouldn't stop us from cherry-picking the things that do work, or re-engineering the bugs out of beta versions to make them work well, or even daring to innovate new things.

Yes, but many just want to blindly follow another Country... AND its failings. France has been losing money for over 20 years.

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The principle opposition to these things happening in respect of health care in the US are motivated by: for the few - the politics of greed, and for the many- the politics of fear.

In YOUR opinion. I am looking at balance sheets.

You could say the opposite for those wanting a single payer system.. they are lazy and want someone else to pay their way.

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I happen to think those are shamefully piss-poor justifications for stagnation

And they are just YOUR opinion of the opposition. that does not make it true.

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Shame on us all if we allow greed, fear, ignorance and complacency to perpetuate today's problems into tomorrow because we have nothing better to offer our children than yesterday's solutions.

SHAME on us if we just blindly follow someone's failed programs.

You think 20 years of France running in the red does not affect the children of France?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,009]

>Yet you also seem to want the same failed program here.

Sounds like he wants parts of both.

That's a good approach, and we use it all over. Transportation? Both private (airlines, bus lines) semi-private (Amtrak, toll roads) and public (highways, air traffic control.) Health care? Private for most, semi-guaranteed for some (i.e. "go to the ER and don't pay") and public for a few (VA hospitals.) Recreation? Private (amusement parks, movies) and public (national parks and waterways.)

>There is SO much more that can be done before we adopt an admittedly
>broken system.

You're right! People should have a choice. (Which, under the current proposed program, they do.)

[kmfenaughty 0]

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http://watchingthewatchers.org/article/26101/canadian-experience-canadian

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A Canadian experience with Canadian health-care

Canadian Medical Association president says their healthcare system is imploding

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jbjzPEY0Y3bvRD335rGu_Z3KXoQw

"(Canadians) have to understand that the system that we have right now - if it keeps on going without change - is not sustainable," said Doig.


SASKATOON — The incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association says this country's health-care system is sick and doctors need to develop a plan to cure it.

Dr. Anne Doig says patients are getting less than optimal care and she adds that physicians from across the country - who will gather in Saskatoon on Sunday for their annual meeting - recognize that changes must be made.

"We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize," Doing said in an interview with The Canadian Press.

"We know that there must be change," she said. "We're all running flat out, we're all just trying to stay ahead of the immediate day-to-day demands."

The pitch for change at the conference is to start with a presentation from Dr. Robert Ouellet, the current president of the CMA, who has said there's a critical need to make Canada's health-care system patient-centred. He will present details from his fact-finding trip to Europe in January, where he met with health groups in England, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands and France.

His thoughts on the issue are already clear. Ouellet has been saying since his return that "a health-care revolution has passed us by," that it's possible to make wait lists disappear while maintaining universal coverage and "that competition should be welcomed, not feared."

In other words, Ouellet believes there could be a role for private health-care delivery within the public system.

He has also said the Canadian system could be restructured to focus on patients if hospitals and other health-care institutions received funding based on the patients they treat, instead of an annual, lump-sum budget. This "activity-based funding" would be an incentive to provide more efficient care, he has said.

Doig says she doesn't know what a proposed "blueprint" toward patient-centred care might look like when the meeting wraps up Wednesday. She'd like to emerge with clear directions about where the association should focus efforts to direct change over the next few years. She also wants to see short-term, medium-term and long-term goals laid out.

"A short-term achievable goal would be to accelerate the process of getting electronic medical records into physicians' offices," she said. "That's one I think ought to be a priority and ought to be achievable."

A long-term goal would be getting health systems "talking to each other," so information can be quickly shared to help patients.

Doig, who has had a full-time family practice in Saskatoon for 30 years, acknowledges that when physicians have talked about changing the health-care system in the past, they've been accused of wanting an American-style structure. She insists that's not the case.

"It's not about choosing between an American system or a Canadian system," said Doig. "The whole thing is about looking at what other people do."

"That's called looking at the evidence, looking at how care is delivered and how care is paid for all around us (and) then saying 'Well, OK, that's good information. How do we make all of that work in the Canadian context? What do the Canadian people want?' "

Doig says there are some "very good things" about Canada's health-care system, but she points out that many people have stories about times when things didn't go well for them or their family.

"(Canadians) have to understand that the system that we have right now - if it keeps on going without change - is not sustainable," said Doig.

"They have to look at the evidence that's being presented and will be presented at (the meeting) and realize what Canada's doctors are trying to tell you, that you can get better care than what you're getting and we all have to participate in the discussion around how do we do that and of course how do we pay for it."

Copyright © 2009 The Canadian Press. All rights reserved.

99% of the people on this earth are sheep ... dare to be different

[Ron 10]

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You're right! People should have a choice. (Which, under the current proposed program, they do.)

You don't have a choice if you are forced to pay for it. You don't have a choice to support Amtrak.

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That's a good approach, and we use it all over. Transportation? Both private (airlines, bus lines) semi-private (Amtrak, toll roads) and public (highways, air traffic control.)

I guess you think the Govt should start an airline then?

The current proposed solution is really not more than some nice talk... the DETAILS are severely lacking.

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But when Obama tells people they can just continue with the plans they have now if they are happy with them, that can't be taken at face value, either. Tax provisions could end up making it cheaper for some employers to pay a fee to end their health coverage, nudging some patients into a public plan with different doctors and benefits

And having just been at the DMV and the tax office this week.... I don't exactly see the Govt running anything very well.

PLUS, I HAVE BEEN TO THE VA and I don't find that quality of care near as good as my private insurance.

Do YOU have any experience with Govt run health care?

Plus you are ignoring how Frances system has been losing money for 20 years.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[marks2065 0]

And having just been at the DMV and the tax office this week.... I don't exactly see the Govt running anything very well.

PLUS, I HAVE BEEN TO THE VA and I don't find that quality of care near as good as my private insurance.

Do YOU have any experience with Govt run health care?

Plus you are ignoring how Frances system has been losing money for 20 years.

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Bill and the rest of the left trust the government to run things efficiently just like they always do, like the post office, medicare, medicade and soso security. definately great models to use as an example.

[rushmc 23]

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And having just been at the DMV and the tax office this week.... I don't exactly see the Govt running anything very well.

PLUS, I HAVE BEEN TO THE VA and I don't find that quality of care near as good as my private insurance.

Do YOU have any experience with Govt run health care?

Plus you are ignoring how Frances system has been losing money for 20 years.

Quote

Bill and the rest of the left trust the government to run things efficiently just like they always do, like the post office, medicare, medicade and soso security. definately great models to use as an example.

Dont forget to check the news out of Canada this week as well. Not going well there either........

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[tkhayes 348]

yes, things in Canada are soooooo bad.....
http://uprisingradio.org/home/?p=9489