kallend 2,106 #26 July 24, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteInteresting...can you carry on base? When I was in we had a standing rule that all personal firearms must be kept in the base armory. Even for those who lived off base. Those of us who did live off base did not abide my that particular rule. I guess that excludes you from the set of "law abiding gun owners" then. If it were law rather than the base commanders rule than you'd have a point. . Isn't there something in the UCMJ about obeying orders? I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God. Still wrong - an order is not the equivalent of state or federal law. The UCMJ has no standing in law? I think you delude yourself.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #27 July 24, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Interesting...can you carry on base? When I was in we had a standing rule that all personal firearms must be kept in the base armory. Even for those who lived off base. Those of us who did live off base did not abide my that particular rule. I guess that excludes you from the set of "law abiding gun owners" then. If it were law rather than the base commanders rule than you'd have a point. . Isn't there something in the UCMJ about obeying orders? I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God. Still wrong - an order is not the equivalent of state or federal law. The UCMJ has no standing in law? I think you delude yourself. Talk about deluding one's self. It has been well established that personal weapons are allowed by military members on military installations (with a few caveats) and you are still arguing that he is a criminal citing the oath of enlistment as your referencing document? Politics really does remove one's rationality, doesn't it?"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #28 July 24, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteInteresting...can you carry on base? When I was in we had a standing rule that all personal firearms must be kept in the base armory. Even for those who lived off base. Those of us who did live off base did not abide my that particular rule. I guess that excludes you from the set of "law abiding gun owners" then. If it were law rather than the base commanders rule than you'd have a point. . Isn't there something in the UCMJ about obeying orders? I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God. Still wrong - an order is not the equivalent of state or federal law. The UCMJ has no standing in law? It certainly does - in MILITARY law. Your OTHER mistake is thinking that the base command has jurisdiction in the local community. The only way that the base commander can stipulate that personnel cannot keep personal weapons in their off-base quarters would be if the quarters were provided / paid for directly by the military (leased by the base, not by the servicemember). QuoteI think you delude yourself Yet again, you're so cute when you try to talk about military stuff.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jloirsdaan 0 #29 July 24, 2009 3 years? Jordan Go Fast, Dock Soft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #30 July 25, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteInteresting...can you carry on base? When I was in we had a standing rule that all personal firearms must be kept in the base armory. Even for those who lived off base. Those of us who did live off base did not abide my that particular rule. I guess that excludes you from the set of "law abiding gun owners" then. If it were law rather than the base commanders rule than you'd have a point. . Isn't there something in the UCMJ about obeying orders? I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God. Still wrong - an order is not the equivalent of state or federal law. The UCMJ has no standing in law? It certainly does - in MILITARY law. What part of "LAW abiding" do you not understand?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #31 July 25, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteInteresting...can you carry on base? When I was in we had a standing rule that all personal firearms must be kept in the base armory. Even for those who lived off base. Those of us who did live off base did not abide my that particular rule. I guess that excludes you from the set of "law abiding gun owners" then. If it were law rather than the base commanders rule than you'd have a point. . Isn't there something in the UCMJ about obeying orders? I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God. Still wrong - an order is not the equivalent of state or federal law. The UCMJ has no standing in law? It certainly does - in MILITARY law. What part of "LAW abiding" do you not understand? What part of "military law has nothing to do with gun ownership" did YOU not understand?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #32 July 25, 2009 QuoteWhat part of "military law has nothing to do with gun ownership" did YOU not understand? What part of "When I was in we had a standing rule that all personal firearms must be kept in the base armory. Even for those who lived off base. Those of us who did live off base did not abide my that particular rule." Did YOU not understand?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jloirsdaan 0 #33 July 25, 2009 Look, if you weren't in the military, you really have no clue what you're talking about. While ignoring a base commander's rule might not be the best idea.....really the most that probably would happen if he'd been caught is an Article 15. And while these are no fun, it isn't the end of the world....nor will anything happen to his right to keep and bear arms. edit to add: While this wasn't the rule on Ft. Sill....I'd have ignored the rule as well. There is no way in hell I'd put my guns in the Armory. Guess it was a good thing I joined the Army already a married man. Jordan Go Fast, Dock Soft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #34 July 25, 2009 QuoteLook, if you weren't in the military, you really have no clue what you're talking about. I was in the military, 13B, 25th ID, US Army. I also served as an armorer in the USAR. QuoteWhile ignoring a base commander's rule might not be the best idea.....really the most that probably would happen if he'd been caught is an Article 15. Article 15 of what? UCMJ, perhaps? If you weren't in the military, you probably wouldn't know this, but Article 15 covers non-judicial punishment of real violations of the UCMJ.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jloirsdaan 0 #35 July 25, 2009 13B here as well. Don't be a smart ass, you know full well what I meant by Article 15 if you aren't full of crap about being in. edit to add: I can play the name that unit game as well. C Btry 3rd 18th Field Artillery and HHB 17th FA BDE. Jordan Go Fast, Dock Soft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #36 July 25, 2009 Quote 13B here as well. Don't be a smart ass, you know full well what I meant by Article 15 if you aren't full of crap about being in. As you know full well that Article 15 is from UCMJ, and does not even guarantee protection from a court martial, later, for the same offense.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jloirsdaan 0 #37 July 25, 2009 Hey, I was just a lowely SGT when I got out. I know that ton's of soldiers get Article 15's for drinking under age and other crap that really doesn't amount to much. Which, I'd imagine if you just had your weapons in your OFF BASE quarters and were caught, you'd have some pay taken and be working some late nights for a few weeks. So, I don't have a clue where you are going with that......but ignoring that rule has really nothing to do with the US gun laws. Jordan Go Fast, Dock Soft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrophyHusband 0 #38 July 25, 2009 QuoteQuoteWhat part of "military law has nothing to do with gun ownership" did YOU not understand? What part of "When I was in we had a standing rule that all personal firearms must be kept in the base armory. Even for those who lived off base. Those of us who did live off base did not abide my that particular rule." Did YOU not understand? i find it hard to believe that could even be considered a lawful order. a base commander's jurisdiction does spread outside the borders of the base (off-limits businesses is one example), but i think denying someone's second ammendment right in one's own home may cross the line. you aren't required to obey all orders no matter what. you can't be ordered to vote a certain way. you can't be ordered to believe in a certain religion. you can't be ordered to do lots of things. if my wife's commander adopted that same rule, none of our guns would be leaving my house to get stored in the base armory. "Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama www.kjandmegan.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #39 July 25, 2009 QuoteQuoteWhat part of "military law has nothing to do with gun ownership" did YOU not understand? What part of "When I was in we had a standing rule that all personal firearms must be kept in the base armory. Even for those who lived off base. Those of us who did live off base did not abide my that particular rule." Did YOU not understand? What part of Your OTHER mistake is thinking that the base command has jurisdiction in the local community. The only way that the base commander can stipulate that personnel cannot keep personal weapons in their off-base quarters would be if the quarters were provided / paid for directly by the military (leased by the base, not by the servicemember). did YOU not understand?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #40 July 25, 2009 Quote So, I don't have a clue where you are going with that......but ignoring that rule has really nothing to do with the US gun laws. Ignoring that rule has everything to do with disobeying a lawful order, which is a violation of the Uniform code of Military Justice, i.e. a violation of law.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #41 July 25, 2009 QuoteWhat part of Your OTHER mistake is thinking that the base command has jurisdiction in the local community. The only way that the base commander can stipulate that personnel cannot keep personal weapons in their off-base quarters would be if the quarters were provided / paid for directly by the military (leased by the base, not by the servicemember). did YOU not understand? If you were in the military, you would know that a soldier is subject to the orders that come through his chain of command regardless of that soldiers location.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #42 July 25, 2009 "Take me to the Brig. I want to see the "real Marines". " Major General Chesty Puller, USMC - while on a Battalion inspection. www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jloirsdaan 0 #43 July 25, 2009 If it is a lawful order, and I am not saying it is or isn't. (I wasn't a barracks lawyer, nor was I part of any MOS that would require me to know these things) Then sure, its disobeying an order. But, even then, it has nothing to do with US gun laws. The original statement that started this discussion was to the effect of "Guess that takes you out of the group of law abiding gun owners" and even if you were nailed to the wall because of violating the commanders order, it still wouldn't have any thing to do with his right to own guns, and keep 'em where he sees fit. Jordan Go Fast, Dock Soft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #44 July 25, 2009 QuoteBut, even then, it has nothing to do with US gun laws. Kallend's comment, from which the present discussion stems, wasn't about gun laws, but rather violation of laws in general.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jloirsdaan 0 #45 July 25, 2009 Sorry, I stand corrected. However, I drank underage as well. Have gotten speeding tickets, etc. So, I've broken laws myself, I'm not a law abiding gun owner either. If we use that definition. I think you take yourself out of the class of law abiding gun owners, when you break gun laws, or laws that would, after conviction, bar you from owning guns again. None of which would come out of the said case, you can not convince me he would have been given a dishonorable discharge for this. And even the order "No guns anywhere but the Arms room" doesn't constitute a gun law. All I am saying, and its all just my opinion. Jordan Go Fast, Dock Soft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penniless 0 #46 July 25, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteInteresting...can you carry on base? When I was in we had a standing rule that all personal firearms must be kept in the base armory. Even for those who lived off base. Those of us who did live off base did not abide my that particular rule. I guess that excludes you from the set of "law abiding gun owners" then. If it were law rather than the base commanders rule than you'd have a point. . Isn't there something in the UCMJ about obeying orders? I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God. Still wrong - an order is not the equivalent of state or federal law. The UCMJ has no standing in law? It certainly does - in MILITARY law. What part of "LAW abiding" do you not understand? What part of "military law has nothing to do with gun ownership" did YOU not understand? Seems to me that "Law abiding" includes abiding by military law, which in turn involves obeying rules established by superior officers. Isn't a base commander likely to be an O6? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #47 July 25, 2009 QuoteI think you take yourself out of the class of law abiding gun owners, when you break gun laws, or laws that would, after conviction, bar you from owning guns again. Exactly. QuoteAnd even the order "No guns anywhere but the Arms room" doesn't constitute a gun law. Yup - the base commander can write a reg that says "all beds must be made with hospital corners" - that doesn't mean that I have to make the bed in my offbase apartment that way. With certain specific exceptions (off-limits list and the like), his jurisdiction ends at the gate. Of course, that's just what JAG says, but what do THEY know - we have kallend and jcd telling us how it REALLY is.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jloirsdaan 0 #48 July 25, 2009 Quote Isn't a base commander likely to be an O6? More like an O8, O7 at the least I'd think? edit to add: My wife is on a tiny Coast Guard station, and the commander is a Rear Admiral (O8). Every Army base I've ever been on was a Major General. Jordan Go Fast, Dock Soft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #49 July 25, 2009 QuoteIsn't a base commander likely to be an O6? Actually, a commander for any decent-sized base (Brigade level or higher - most bases in the US) is more likely to be a GO, as a 'general' rule (pardon the pun). Small garrisons and FOBs (Battalion level and under) would have FG / CG officers commanding.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jloirsdaan 0 #50 July 25, 2009 Ah, thanks.....that's why I left the question mark in. I didn't know other than from my experience. edit to add: Actually, if you count my 2 years in Iraq....the first time I went was Feb 2003, once we got on a FOB, it was just our battalion, so I guess our Lieutenant Colonel would have been the commander. The second time in 2005, was on Camp Victory.....the base commander there, believe it or not, was "just" a Colonel. Jordan Go Fast, Dock Soft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
